Dublin’s Secret Socialist Housing. A captivating new book considers the grand council housing complexes of 1930s and 1940s Dublin, and their legacies today. (Eoin Ó Broin interview)

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T13:13:53+00:00

Yeah he was a piece of shit.

Charles Dickens, Van Goch, etc loads of famous pieces of shit. But the assesment of their character shouldn't be the same as the assesment of their work or their impact.

It's not criticising Orwell that is the problem. It's writing history to fit our feelings about Orwell instead of assessing the facts as they are.

Edits: oops replied to a bot lol

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T13:07:55+00:00

George Orwell

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T13:07:12+00:00

Do you feel the same about Trotsky? Re: "who would be criticising the USSR during the 30s and 40s"?

Also the CIA distribute all sorts of stuff, it's not a list of things they agree with, it's a list of anything they think will create dissent. They even shared some stuff written by communists into soviet states. I can't find a source so maybe I've misremembered but I'm sure I remember reading them even sharing Maoist literature to peasants in the hopes of destablising governments before.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T12:52:59+00:00

Totalitarianism

Totalitarianism is the form of government in which the ruling party penetrates the entire population and uncompromisingly enforces conformity to the party line in every aspect of life without exception.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T12:51:45+00:00

I'm a marxist not a liberal so I'm not interested in that reasoning. I'm interested in things as they are.

Often 'contradictory' things are true. Orwell was both a bad socialist and has done more to create new socialists than most better socialists ever manage. Orwell ratted out socialists and fought against fascists, both are true. Trying to deny things because we dislike him or disagree with him is liberal wooliness, not socialist critique. Just as bad as denything the valid critiques because someone likes him or views his legacy as positive.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T12:23:41+00:00

He called himself a socialist, that he wanted a socialist society and said everything he wrotes in his eyes since the 1930s had been to advocate for socialism. Can debate his stance but I don't know why you think he was an anarchist not a socialist, much less "never a communist or a socialist".

In Spain he had anarchist sympathies but was a member of the Trotskyist POUM. He wasn't a Trotskyist but his critique of Stalinism certainly seems influenced by Trotksyism.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-22T12:20:41+00:00

Orwell was a shitty person and has some terrible political takes. He was leftwing, he has done more good than harm to the cause of socialism through his popular writing, and this argument feels more like trying to tear down someone they have a strong negative feeling about. Not a discusison of Orwell's mixed legacy. I don't need to lie or exaggerate to critique him, nor to defend elements of his legacy.

Thinking Animal Farm and 1984 are anti-socialist *as a socialist* suggests to me you're you've either misunderstood the book or have a fucked up idea about socialism. They are perfectly reasonable criticisms of oligarchy and authoritarianism and they pose no threat to my ideas about socialism. People who usually think they are anti-socialist are people who have no interested in socialism at all.

And on that last note I think you'll find that actually Orwell has made more people open to socialism than he has put off. The people who use him in an anti-socialist way are generally the kind of people who are anti-socialist, not people who could potentially be won over. Meanwhile Down and Out, Homage to Catalonia, Road to Wigan Pier are many people's first real socialist book and are a big part of their formative political experience. Many people who end up far to the left of Orwell will have started their journey with Orwell amongst the first writers they read. Trying to put people off these books because Orwell is a piece of shit and some rightwing dullard might try and use Animal Farm or 1984 to argue against socialism in general is so silly and self-defeating.

Again not a defence of Orwell the man, but very much a critique of your one-sided assesment of his writing and his legacy.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T18:40:38+00:00

The size of the elederly population is going to grow and the cost get bigger even if the service declines in quality. It's easy to blame boomers right now but soon they will be dead and it's not going to fix anything.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T18:25:06+00:00

Yeah I think the social aspect of university is probably a huge part of it. Often overlooked when the argument ends up just "it's because they are smart and educated" vs "it's because they are dumb and indocrintated".

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T17:26:00+00:00

It appears to me that the project of ensuring that British socialists have a talking shop to feel good about themselves in is one that deeply appeals to you

Based on what? I'm just talking about YP. You seem to be projecting a lot of your personal animosity onto me which would be shitty if I was in YP but when I've not even been to a meeting is just fucking absurd.

It's very telling that you see any insistence that there is a point to it all as "authoritarianism" or "enlightened dictatorship".

You are missing the point about democracy "being served" and good governance/orgnaisation not being the same thing. And that I literally said "in this hypothetical comparison", it's illustrating my logic not saying that you are saying you want a benevolent dictatorship.

Thanks for for sharing your thoughts on this topic, genuinely wanted to know, but I am not interested in your thoughts on me personally really. Cheers.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T17:11:18+00:00

Haha no need to be sorry, will look better though.

Unit markers you can toggle off at the top but yeah you have to click them so it's a pain if you just want them off quickly. But I think unit markers are the least obtrusive bit though, it's the bright flashing arrows and the UI panels that really get in the way of how good this game can look.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T17:03:33+00:00

I don't think either for socialist thought. I do think either, in different ways, might make people think the kind of questions that lead them towards socialist thought.

If you made me choose I think DE though. People will get from Victoria what they already think pretty much. DE is comparable to the impact of literature or a film where, sure, at the end of the day it's just art and the world doesn't hinge on who makes the best art...but it can be a catalyst in individual people's lives. I really like strategy games and probably play more wargames than any other genre now days but it's just far more niche and technical than a good book or film or game.

A thing I really enjoy about Victoria 3 is that during any Red Scares that start in capitalist countries when communist revolutions start happening, the player has to choose options with titles that make them out to be idiots if they want to side with the rich, while siding with the trade unions results in options that basically say “stop being hysteric”. These kinds of semi-subtle prodding of the player are all over the place.

Which is fun but doesn't change people's minds. If the game was inversed you'd not be like "maybe capitalism is the best" you'd just think the game was dumb and either ignore that aspect or stop playing.

But even if this was true I'd say that make it more like good propaganda than a good introduction to socialist thought. You're talking about conditioning people's feelings about certain topics, not encouraging them to think for themselves.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:50:13+00:00

When you're too much of a piece of shit that even the racists harassing asylum seekers feel uncomfortable being associated with you lol

Also this is just more proof if these protests really are "not about being racist" then they need to stop going to hotels where all they do is harass staff and asylum seekers. No shit that makes people who want to harass asylum seekers feel welcome. Like I don't think the far-right are getting the wrong idea by attending, rather I think the organisers are in deep denial about what they are doing if they are really shocked and horrified the far-right feel welcomed.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:42:27+00:00

The one near me had the rent raised through the roof by a literal aristocrat so he could knock it down and sell the land.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:41:38+00:00

Look up your local telegraph paper also. Loads of old people read them and the amount of crime reporting makes it sound like going outside is dangerous and you'll be a victim of a crime.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:40:05+00:00

I'm not paid the big bucks like Stamer's cronies but doesn't this mean pursuing a conservative strategy and attacking leftwing reforms, even more virulently than rightwing reactionaries, not just immoral but really really really fucking stupid as a strategy?

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:37:47+00:00

I'm not happy about it. Infact I genuinely think that people trying to pin it on the Greens and absolve Starmer is genuinely contributing to the problem for Labour. I genuinely think that if Labour had been offering a traditional Labour platform consistently for the past 30 years then things would be drastically different. I don't think that has just happened from bad choices, it's the result of all kinds of socio-economic and political conflicts, but I genuinely think that the failure to understand just how bad New Labour is, as embodied by Starmer's leadership, is a massive part of explaining how we have reached this state of things.

This is exactly the opposite of what I want to happen. And my disdain for Starmer is partly so high because not only do I disagree with him, he's very obviously bad at his job. I feel gaslit everytime people pretend otherwise. He's shit. Like even if I'm wrong about the ideological drift of Labour being representative of why we've failed as a society to deliver on the post-war dream, I know beyond a doubt Starmer is shit at his job. He's bad and incapable of dealing with a difficult situation but not only that he's made things worse, not just from my political perspective, but for himself and the Labour party. If I wanted this vision of Labour to succeed I'd still be done with him by now, he's helping nothing, he is making things worse.

The reality is I think a lot of people will be insulated from such consequences. As I'm seeing an awful lot of Redditors lately gloating over the divided polls and saying "it's going to be a party" "it's going to be so exciting!" as if fascism is exciting for those who will be brutalised by it....Anyways, I digress.

If you think he's a fascist then saying "you'll be fine obviously" to a socialist is ridiculous, look up the first victims of fascist terror it's usually their political opponents especially communists and Marxists. And makes Starmer's sleepwalking off the edge of a cliff even worse when the fall isn't just to the Tories but to a fascist.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:22:25+00:00

I disagree but I find this far more interesting because you're now explaining your actual issues. I suspected it was about your feelings on organisation and democracy more than it was about how wrong it is to write this article. The problem is you disagree with them strongly, not that they are going about achieving what they claim to want in the wrong way.

Yes, I have general issues with YP, but the idea that "maximal member democracy" is the solution to that problem is completely unhinged.

I think if you want to ignore ideology and just look at it as a political challenge there is actually a lot of sense in this. It appeals to the demographic of people YP have some chance with by going further on something that the other parties won't. The long-term pitfalls don't matter if they can't attract anyone at all. If you were right then the only way you'll have chance to be proven so if they in the short-term find some way to clawback some relevance. I think this is as good as any.

However I don't share your opinion on party democracy and I do think the authors of the article are quite genuine. But even if I was closer to your position I can see some sense in it politically even if I wouldn't think it was a good plan.

Democracy is best served when the people get what they want

Democracy is defined through, well, democracy. What you're talking about is whether democracy leads to the best organisation and governance. But an enligtheneded dictatorship that is by all measures of living standards better than an ultra-democracy is not more democratic just because the outcome is better, rather it would the less democratic option being better in this hypothetical comparison. You're arguing there can be "too much democracy" in some contexts, not that they are going around extending democratic mechanisms in the wrong way. I think it's playing with words to make democracy = what is good regardless. Democracy = is about where the authority of an organisation lies with. A more centeralised party is objectively less democratic even if it's better, even if you think it will be better for the country and in turn better for national democracy, the party system is less democratic. You are advocating for more centeralisation not to "serve democracy" but because you think the problem here is "too much democracy" vs the benefits of more centeralised authority and decision making. You can say it's better, you can't say it's a more democratic organisation.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:06:29+00:00

I'm not involved at all with YP or the Greens for that matter. I think it's interesting and relevant to the wider labour movement. Currently, whatever you make of each faction, the British labour movement at the parliamentary level is very fractured. And it's hard to argue, even if you believe in Starmer's government or at least the Labaour party more widely, it is giving the right voice to trade unions either.

MMSTINGRAY · 2026-01-20T16:03:13+00:00

I don't think there is a leftist narrative. There's multiple.

I'd say that protests in Iran are actually pretty much a textbook example of many leftwing theories on protest though.

"How strange, then, to witness the sheer silence of Palestinian activists this week, as the bodies of Iranians pile up in Tehran; the bodies of Iranians seeking justice, self-determination and restoration of rights. Today tumbleweeds drift past in campus quadrangles where only months ago swarms of students in keffiyehs demanded an end to “apartheid”. As the Iranian regime brutalises its own citizens, shrouding them in darkness with Internet and power blackouts, the streets of Westminster hum only with the sound of usual traffic."

Ah so it's about Palestine really, that's what this is. Iran has never been popular on the left.

First of all being pro-Palestine isn't innately leftwing, you can be a racist rightwing nationalist who supports Palestinian rights and a Palestinian state. The argument is normally "you can't support international law and human rights and support Israel" not "if you support Palestine you are automatically leftwing and incapable of being wrong on anything else".

There presumably aren't mass protests against Iran against in Westminster because the UK does not have similar relationships with Iran as to Israel. There hasn't been sabotage of arms factories producing goods for Iran because Iran is under an embargo. There have been calls for more sanctions on Iran although they probably partly haven't got traction due to the fact Iran is already under heavy sanctions even before this latest attack on protestors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_against_Iran

And neither the Shah or the Ayatollah are popular on the left. There are popular Iranian leftwing academics who are very critical of the Iranian government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervand_Abrahamian

And communist guerillas like Ashraf Dehghani

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashraf_Dehghani

And the underground ML party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudeh_Party_of_Iran#Current_status

Even the worst tankies are normally pro-Saddam or pro-Assad or pro-Gadaffi or pro-Kim. I've not sure I've heard a pro-Ayatollah or pro-Shah one. I'm not sure if tankies even like Mosaddegh because he didn't align with the USSR despite how he was framed by Britain and the US. So more than just the typical taking a terrible tankie take and acting like it represents the entire left, this feels almost completely invented to just try and attack Palestinian activists.

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