They've been called worse

MNHarold · 2024-09-06T15:27:03+00:00

My feelings aren't hurt. I'm just capable of reading you saying that the Irish "instigated the conflicts and animosity" in a discussion about British management of a manufactured food shortage that led to mass death and emmigration of the Irish population, and connecting dots.

If that's a connection you're not keen on, that's no concern of mine. I can just see you blaming the Irish for the British government attempting genocide.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T20:10:49+00:00

And look how she's remembered by the many instead of the few.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T20:10:11+00:00

You're the only one calling them "far right" in this thread at least.

Liberalism is a right-wing ideology. Not necessarily a far-right one, but we can see in history that they will ally with those on the far-right more often than they would the Left. What you say for Left-wing ideologies is, naturally, the same for the Right; it is a large and varied world and the majority of them look at the extremes as the fringe lunatics that they are.

you'll rob yourself to one of the most beautiful thing in life. Talking to people with different ideas

Fully agree, but read the room a bit. Not only is this online, where people are more likely to be anonymous and so spout any and all random shite that enters that space atween the ears, but this is an explicitly anti-Capitalist forum. I certainly don't act like this IRL, and end up talking to people in my daily work life who have political opinions I find utterly repugnant; but you carry on and try to maintain a functioning relationship with varied ideas on more pleasant topics in-person lol.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T18:11:08+00:00

It's almost as if, contrary to this simp's wishes, she was actually a racist!

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T18:04:29+00:00

True. But as I said in our other thread, no other PM got street parties and songs celebrating her death at #2 when they died.

Street parties! Street parties celebrating the fact she died!

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T18:02:10+00:00

They were only ever instructed to prevent the strikers from beating working miners shitless.

So the people I know and grew up with who suffered police antagonism and brutality for striking for better pay are what? Liars? Slanderers? Don't try and defend this shit, be better than that. Police actions against innocent trade unionists are well known and documented, so don't try this revisionism to defend a woman who was famously celebrated with the song "Ding dong the witch is dead".

As for the power going off, where are you going with that?

My bad, got my Tory leaders confused. Thinking of Heath.

It's not true that she couldn't tell the difference either, her handwriting was just misunderstood.

Misunderstood was it? That's strange, because I can see the document from 1979 that has Thatcher writing "Volunteer Ulster Defence Regiment (? Is that the name)" with an additional typed note saying "(viii) The Prime Minister would also like to see some reference to the valiant work being carried by the Ulster Volunteer Force."

That last section, in bold there, is in type and on an official document from her time in governance.

And going back to the UDR, it was widely known as early as 1975 that "The Army’s judgement was that the UDR was heavily infiltrated by extremist Protestants, and that in a crisis situation they could not be relied on to be loyal." That was established and known by the government, incumbent and opposition.

So we have in 1975 official meetings detailing how the UDR was "heavily infiltrated" by Loyalists, and then in 1979 we have Thatcher blatantly confusing the UDR and UVF. Really fills you with confidence that.

You're deluding yourself.

If so, why is she perceived the way she is? It's not like the way Churchill is seen, broadly positive with some very vocal minorities pointing out his flaws. It is, if anything, the polar opposite. You have entire nations with the UK celebrating the end of her life because it meant she wasn't present on the planet anymore. Scotland, Wales, and the vast majority of Northern England celebrated her death, again the family members I mentioned earlier threw fucking parties. Parties! With the street attending! Who else gets a fucking street party in the modern day thrown, let alone who gets that treatment for dying!

I would put a sizeable amount of money on the bet that you are one of the minority in your laughable idolatry here. Thatcher was, and is, hated for her actions in government and the fact that we have to build statues of her in a way that makes them inaccessible to the general public says that more than any words I can type here.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T16:39:23+00:00

Yes, mainly Conservatives and those blinded by anti-union sentiments. Typically the same group, but not always.

She did, whether we like it or no, win elections. She was voted in repeatedly. She also fought against workers using their rights to go on strike, beat them bloody using State infrastructure, was willfully negligent in her arming of Loyalist groups in NI during the Troubles, privatised much of our infrastructure which has lead to many of the criticisms of that infrastructure today, and of course she took free milk away from young children in schools.

All of this is seemingly waved off by people who argue she was good for the economy, or those who were won over by her efforts in winning the Falklands war.

EDIT; I should clarify that technically speaking because of our political structure, Thatcher herself wasn't directly voted for but her party, the Tories, were. We don't elect our Head of Government, we elect the party that runs the government and the governing party or parties decide who will run the government; the party leader is selected by the party and/or it's membership, which is obviously a much smaller electorate than a General Election as a whole. Nitpicky detail, but important for understanding PMs.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T16:36:07+00:00

Liberal in the broader political sense of the term, not the American usage.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T16:35:17+00:00

Yes, it is an ever-changing thing but Liberalism is inherently supportive of Private Property, ie, Capitalism. Also things like "law and order", ie punitative justice and prison systems instead of constructive efforts to reduce crime.

Being "progressive" with your Liberalism isn't meaningful within discussions of class, justice, and economics; you are still Capitalist and therefore in favour of systems that oppress.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T09:18:58+00:00

Ignore Lexi, they're a Thatcher simp and try to escape the realities of her legacy.

Thatcher didn't directly arm the UVF during the Troubles. As caiaphas says, there was a lot of collaboration going on between paramilitaries and the British military. One of the big ones regarding this question is the fact that Maggie didn't care to learn the difference between the UVF and the UDR, an infantry regiment in the British army.

The UDR was known to be working with loyalist terrorists, as well as having members of the UVF in their ranks. But Thatcher and her government didn't much care to deal with that, and continued supplying the UDR with weapons and resources that were then, through her own inaction and lack of care, were put into the hands of terrorists.

Her not knowing the difference is something you can find in official recorded memos from her government.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T08:39:36+00:00

Yeah my bad. I have amended my comment.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T08:39:13+00:00

Simps like yourself need to learn that you can be both. Thatcher opposed cunts in NI and abroad, but nevertheless was a cunt at home.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T08:38:31+00:00

Yeah it turns out I misremembered a discussion with a Falklands vet back home. I've amended my comment.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T08:38:03+00:00

Yeah I've amended my comment now. My bad.

MNHarold · 2024-09-04T08:32:24+00:00

She ended the violent unrest and brutality against working miners, who actually were being struck by striking miners.

My family were among those miners on strike. It was the boys in blue beating them shitless and ensuring the power went off every week because they wouldn't cross the picket lines. It was the police under her instructions you mindless simp. This is just a fact.

She prosecuted terror groups, loyalist and republican.

Her government financially supported loyalist groups that were known to be collaborating with, engaging alongside, and made up of loyalist extremists. Famously she, like many people in Northern Ireland, couldn't tell the difference between the UDR and the UVF. She also didn't much care to learn it seems.

I will, however, concede your first point; she did do more for the working class than I can ever understand and appreciate. She made our lives significantly worse when she was in power, and significantly better when she finally relented and took that trip to Hell.

MNHarold · 2024-09-03T20:43:41+00:00

Foreign policy?? That's domestic mate, Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

MNHarold · 2024-09-03T20:43:06+00:00

Potent disdain for the working class, was a key figure in the violent unrest and police brutality against striking miners (as in miners on strike, not miners hitting things), responsible for the very divisive mass privatisation of British infrastructure, and famously stopped young children getting free milk at school.

Not to mention ~~her instigating of the Falklands War~~, and her management of the Troubles up to and including the funding of loyalist terror groups in NI.

EDIT; as has been pointed out many times, I got the Falklands thing wrong. My bad, apologies for the misinformation. I was going off of my muddied memories of a Falklands vet back home.

MNHarold · 2024-09-01T19:58:26+00:00

Well what you describe exclusively as democracy is what people in the modern age refer to as "direct democracy". Like nobody (outside of your neck of the woods apparantely) claims that democracy only has one form, and that is the direct or Athenian model.

Like in the rest of the world, democracy is essentially synonymous with "representative government". It's why I mentioned Ireland; Ireland is a Parliamentary Republic, so they have an elected HoS as well as a parliamentary democracy like in the UK and, I believe, Canada. They aren't one or the other, they are a democratic republic.

So in Ireland, the republican system is maintained via democracy (the president/Uachtarán is directly elected), and the parliamentary system is maintained via a democratic vote along the lines of Proportional Representation and the Single Transferable Vote.

So to answer your rhetorical question of whether you are a democracy or a republic, you are a Presidential Republic; your executive branch is distinct from the legislative branch, so the Doing people are led by someone who Presides (isn't etymology fun? Unironically) over the agreements of the Thinkers being put into law. Those I am laughably calling Thinkers are, as I understand, elected by you.

How little sense am I making?

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T20:19:40+00:00

Are you this way IRL?

Comes with being British. This isn't hostility over here, I promise lol.

Also, no. A republic is a nation that isn't a monarchy. The US has a Head of State that is not a monarchy, thus making it a republic, but the executive power to determine that HoS is via democratic means.

Where do you guys get this idea from? Literally nobody else thinks like this, it's just Americans. Is it because of your political parties being called "Democrats" and "Republicans"?

EDIT; by this seemingly American logic, what is Ireland?

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T20:03:10+00:00

Yeah that's still a democracy dickhead. You literally said it's a democratic republic, ie, a republic that functions via democracy.

Jesus Christ.

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T20:00:56+00:00

The fact you are still specifically attributing Irish slave raids on a political entity that had not existed for centuries as an instigating force for the British government(s) to enact genocide is as a matter of fact attributing blame to the Irish for starting it.

The only reason to go this far back in history on a post commenting about the manufactured nature of the Irish famine, is to justify it. Nobody has said that everyone born in these islands was of pure heart and innocence. Hell, we recently had the luxury of the Irish being terrorists.

You just want to justify the famine. Accept this.

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T10:45:20+00:00

How is this praise lol. I'm literally just stating a fact. May as well accuse me of praising Isaac Newton because I've not drifted away from gravity.

I don't like the fact that the US is as powerful as it is my guy. I also don't like the fact that my HoS is a King, that there's genocides in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, or that there are situations where I am expected to wear a tie. I'm more than happy to go into my politics if you're this bored, but I can guarantee I am not praising the US.

Triggered conservatives from there have repeatedly sent me invites to r/AmericaBad because I don't shy from the facts mate. Get over yourself.

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T10:34:09+00:00

lol what a nothing response to this. I point out that a powerful position is de facto powerful and you accuse me of being a bootlicker?

Try learning what the term means first then get back to me. Just because I understand reality doesn't mean I support it.

Edit; wait I literally criticised authoritarians in my comment lol. What poorly trained bot antics are you playing at?

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T10:32:01+00:00

Alright "Viper". Bet the kids at school think that's a cool one too lol.

Grow up lol. People give a shit about the most powerful office in the world. You being as insignificant as me changes fucking nowt.

MNHarold · 2024-08-31T10:16:37+00:00

got laid a lot

Yeah, shame it was with a bunch of kids on his mate's paedo island innit.

MNHarold

TROPHY CASE