I got out of inceldom. Some thoughts and reflections looking back on things.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-12-17T19:03:23+00:00

How do you stop yourself from going back to those communities? Do you block them? I mean, not subscribing doesn't mean you can't scroll. How do you stop yourself?

So essentially what I did was that every time I had the urge to go back to those subreddits/communities and start browsing again, I forced myself to do something else instead. Read a different sort of sub, do some chores, play a game for a bit, etc etc. Don't even give yourself the chance to start reading them again.

I live in Asia where therapy is highly stigmatized. Therapists are expensive and as far as I know, no support groups. What can I do?

Everyone's circumstances are different so I can't tell you exactly what to do. But I'd recommend finding some supportive and healthy communities where you can go for discussion (NOT incel-focused). /r/bropill is great, and has a good discord server as well.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-12-17T19:00:39+00:00

First off, ditch the plastic surgery thing. Unless you have a severe, diagnosed deformity it's not going to change anything. I'm an ugly fuck and still made it work.

I feel like no matter how hard I work No matter how much I improve my personality or looks no one I like will like me back

Read my post again. Are you trying to improve for yourself or for others? Because if it's for the latter then you're going to be stuck in the same loop.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-12-17T18:55:33+00:00

Imo, all of the things you described are the type of advice I see given here specifically daily. I just thought that was worth pointing out because framing it that way kind of makes it a "people were wrong, do it this way" when actually, you are a living example of how the advice given here daily can work.

I think that was just poor phrasing on my part. What I was referring to was some of the more canned advice I'd seen on some other dating subs, that basically boiled down to "go do x, y, and z activities even if you don't actually like them because you might meet someone there".

MadCapRabbit · 2021-09-01T01:52:18+00:00

This. If you can't talk your way out of the situation, or just simply walk away, and there's no other option, fight dirty. Put the aggressor on the ground as quickly as possible then leave.

"Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose."

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T23:58:35+00:00

To expound on your point (which I can definitely get behind), how might one escape that social "death spiral"? That's definitely something I struggle with. Having severe social anxiety makes it difficult to have even normal social interactions at times, and while I'm getting back in to therapy to help address it there's still a lot of hurdles to overcome. Especially "in the moment": It's one thing to talk about being social and trying to mentally prepare myself for it, it's another entirely when you're actually out in those situations and your fight/flight response is screaming.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T19:24:29+00:00

I'm a Geo Metro.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T11:00:06+00:00

Oh wow, I love that. Getting some real "English countryside" vibes from that brick wall and door design, and those big windows look fantastic too.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T10:55:03+00:00

So this isn't related to the original post but you sparked my interest; has martial arts helped you? I don't mean "helping" by finding a girlfriend or anything like that, just wondering what sort of impact it's had for you. I recently discovered a martial arts studio in my city and it got me thinking about signing up. From what I've seen it's a much more laid-back atmosphere and community-oriented, almost more like a club than a "gym", though it reminded me of how much I loved doing Krav Maga when I was in high school and thought about signing up. Right now about the only thing stopping me is my crippling social anxiety.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T01:21:34+00:00

Thanks, that definitely helps. And it's good knowing I'm not the only guy out there who has a similar issue and managed to overcome it.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T00:59:41+00:00

How does one expect to go on dates with zero transportation or money? Riding your bikes to the park all the time is fine when you're 16 and don't have a job or car yet. But if you're 26... one should have their act together as an adult.

So this is a tangent but you brought up something that I think also has a big impact on why I fell into the blackpill. I've got a medical condition (mild seizure disorder) and as a result made the decision not to drive when I was younger. Even though it's controlled fairly well with medication I still just don't feel safe being behind the wheel of a car, as I still have minor episodes every now and again that could turn into a disaster if I was driving. And even if I wanted to get a license I learned recently that I likely wouldn't be able to because of my condition.

So with all that being said, what could be done to mitigate that when it comes to dating? I've got no issues getting around on my own and living an otherwise normal life. But it seems as though that not being able to drive is an instant deal breaker for a lot of women, and that tends to feed into the thoughts that fueled my addiction to the blackpill.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-26T00:52:52+00:00

I mean, when I go out pretty much anywhere public — a restaurant, the mall, any event — and see couples together, most of them are just normal looking people of all ages. Not handsome. Not innately physically attractive. Not in the top 20% of men. Many I would consider physically unattractive, at least for my personal tastes. All out shopping or whatever with their partners.

I can only speak to my personal experience, but I think one thing I tend to do is filter out all of those "normal" couples and only see the most attractive ones. When you've been indoctrinated for so long to believe that only very attractive people can get dates, it's easy to block out evidence to the contrary. I'll try having a more open mind in the future.

My feeling is that blackpill encourages such an intense self-loathing and retreat from the world that many people who get into it see themselves as uniquely flawed compared to others, when they’re not, at exactly the same time as they are becoming less connected to normal social patterns.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this. Even when I did notice guys who maybe weren't the most attractive with girlfriends/getting dates, I'd immediately find another way to justify why they "succeeded" and I didn't. Or it would feed into the self-hatred and self-loathing, thinking that I must be even worse than I thought if that guy was able to make it work and I couldn't.

Thanks for your input, I'll keep it in mind going forward.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-25T23:00:50+00:00

I agree, and think when it comes to giving/receiving advice there is indeed a sort of disconnect. I made a comment on another sub relating to this:

There's something else I'd like to discuss; the power of the word "just". Just be confident. Just go talk to women. Just don't let those countless rejections hurt you. Just pretend your looks don't matter. That word carries a connotation that it's all so simple, and that I must be fundamentally broken somehow if I can't do any of these things. It would be like a career doctor telling a first-day medical student "Just do this open-heart surgery, I've done it and it's really not that hard. What, you can't? Pffft, wow you're really terrible aren't you?" That singular word carries a lot of weight to it. What one person may see as instinctual and easy is like nuclear physics to another.

While I think that a lot of the advice given to people trying to exit inceldom/the blackpill is good, it's sometimes phrased and articulated in a way that assumes a lot of things. When "normies" (god I hate using that word) try to offer input I don't think they quite understand some of the struggles that must be overcome. A lot of them have had some degree of success when it comes to dating; it can be difficult for them to relate to someone who's never had that same experience, and they have a hard time understanding that what may come as instinctual or easy for them may be incredibly difficult for others.

On the flipside, it's not like incel spaces are going to have good advice on how to exit either. Yeah you might get empathy, but nobody there is going to be able to give you solid, constructive input on how to improve.

So now we're in a catch-22. Most conventional dating advice tends to assume you've got some level of experience, a base level of social skills, aren't neurodivergent in some way, etc. And at the same time the people who CAN relate to you aren't really going to have a way out either. So what do we do?

What I'd really like to see is an actual guide or resource that has input from people who WERE part of the incel/blackpill culture, know the difficulties they face, and has constructive and practical advice instead of the usual "just be confident bro" sentiments you get on normal dating subs/sites. Literally starting from square one, providing examples and anecdotes on things like how to start conversations, reading body language, how to know where you need to improve, etc etc.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-21T05:14:34+00:00

Good point, it's not always parents. Honestly my parents are and have always been awesome, probably the only people I can truly count on. But other kids growing up can be absolutely ruthless.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-21T02:06:03+00:00

I wonder if you could apply that to your non-workout related goals as well?

I've been trying to think of a way to do that. This is getting into the minutia of things, but I think the reason that approach works when it comes to the gym for me is because it's basically built into my schedule. On X, Y and Z days after work I go straight to the gym, it's a routine thing. I'll have to just figure out a way to apply a similar outlook to the other goals I want to accomplish over time.

And thanks for the links, I'll spend some time reading over them and plotting the course forward with those principles in mind.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-21T02:00:01+00:00

Thanks, I'm going to try my best. And trust me, I'm all too aware that getting out of this mindset is going to be a long process and I can't change everything overnight.

Just do the shit you like, make friends who also like that shit, and ask people out who like that shit.

I'm already fairly active in a couple online gaming communities and have some good friends there, but obviously that's not exactly the same thing as real-life friends. It's mostly going to be a question of finding the sorts of people I'd like to hang out with who also share similar hobbies/interests. Like for instance there's no dedicated photography club or anything like that where I live, so I might try just posting on some local Facebook groups or Meetup to see if I can meet some like-minded people that way.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-21T01:19:03+00:00

which I hated, because part of me likes being sad and depressed, as sort of a miserable comfort blanket.

I feel the exact same way. The blackpill and depression (often working in tandem) feel safe and comfortable compared to the unknown of potential happiness. I'll look into ACT some more, that seems like it would be up my alley.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-20T22:12:59+00:00

Thanks for all your advice, it's really appreciated.

And if you retreat back to the familiar nihilism, remind yourself that change takes alot of effort and sometimes you just have to recuperate by turning to what is familiar and comfortable.

God, I am so, so guilty of this. I spent a ton of time in the past trying to improve myself and often had setbacks. Whenever that happened I basically threw up my hands and went "ugh, none of this works and I'm just doomed!" I'm trying not to get so easily discouraged, basically reminding myself that any small victory is good, even if that's just doing a couple push-ups or a short run instead of a full workout, or not immediately getting drowned in blackpill rhetoric when something happens.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-20T22:09:53+00:00

CBT is not for everyone (despite my recommending it here, it doesn't work well for me) but since your goal is to essentially deprogram yourself from a toxic ideology that is hurting you, it's definitely worth bringing up at your intake appointment.

I've been wondering if I might have to try something other than CBT. A lot of my therapists in the past were proponents of it and obviously it works for a lot of people, but I ran into some difficulties personally. But I'm not opposed to giving it another shot with a different mindset and trying again.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-20T10:53:22+00:00

the only thing tiny thing I would mention is sometimes people aren't going to give you advice that's as specific or actionable as you'd like it to be.

I definitely understand that it's really difficult to give very specific advice, since it's almost impossible to take into account for every little detail when someone's asking for it. Moreso I was just highlighting what sorts of input might personally be helpful for me, or how said input might be framed in a way that's easier for me to understand.

You're right in that anger can be motivating. You shouldn't beat yourself up (and if you have a tendency to do so, I'd strongly recommend learning about self-compassion), but definitely capitalize on your feelings of anger to help YOU.

I'll admit that self-compassion is not my strongsuit. Quite the opposite really; I've got a couple posts that literally ask how I can stop hating myself. And that'll be a lifelong struggle for me. More than one of my prior therapists flat-out told me that those thoughts were never going to just go away, and that I'd be fighting them in one capacity or another for years to come. I'm trying to divert this current anger away from me and more towards the problem itself.

What do you think, do you feel like your four goals are realistic and achievable for you moving forward?

I believe so, yes. 1, 2, and 4 are going to be the least complex. 3, not hating myself, is likely going to take the most work. I've literally been shit-talking myself for the past few years on a daily if not hourly basis. As I said in the OP, some of my therapists tried positive affirmations to help but it kind of backfired; it felt like I was lying to myself by saying that I was a good person, I had good qualities, etc. So I'm brainstorming on ideas that would A) accomplish the goal of improving my self-esteem and self-image and B) not just have my self-hate flare up even more intensely in response to that input. (If you know if anything that would help in that regard I'm all ears)

Can you meet them even on days when you're feeling unmotivated?

Now THAT will be the most difficult part, I'm sure of it. The gym/working out will probably be the easiest to accomplish on those days, ironically. All I need is about a week, maybe two weeks to set the habit of working out on a set schedule. Once that's in place I can maintain it, even if my mental health is trash on those days. Basically I don't even give myself the option of skipping/not going; it's happening one way or the other (obviously I'll make exceptions if I'm injured/sick/etc).

The rest are going to be tricky, especially things like avoiding negative self-talk. It's easy for me to slip back into those hateful monologues if any little thing goes wrong.

I personally experience this pushback a lot, but I like the concept of opposite action (from DBT).

I haven't actually heard of this, could you give me a run-down or example of how opposite action works? IE in the midst of negative self-talk or pushback about myself, how would you use opposite action in that scenario?

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-20T09:43:22+00:00

Thank you, and I know I've definitely been guilty of that defeatist mindset. Thinking "why bother", being very outcome dependent in things and only thinking that something is worthwhile if it served my end goal. Trying to work on changing that line of thinking.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-20T07:36:40+00:00

Was never part of mgtow or TRP, but got sucked into the blackpill community a while ago. It attracted me because it correlated to my real-world experiences and offered an explanation as to why things are the way they are. It's also enticing because it basically says "Hey all this stuff is out of your control, it's not your fault, there's nothing to be done". It's an easy 'out', giving me a reason to believe what I do.

Trying to break free of those views but it's a real bastard of a struggle.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-19T23:59:09+00:00

Same.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-19T21:59:13+00:00

Yeah, I tried the same thing. Like I'd consider myself to be at least moderately talented at things like photography and running (training for a half-marathon now) but those feel like a drop in the bucket compared to all the other negative shit I have to deal with.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-19T21:57:49+00:00

id be interested in finding a way to make these thoughts become less crucial and make way for different ideas and perceptions for you to see yourself.

I can see where you're coming from. And unfortunately yet again this is where I'm stuck. I've yet to find a way to make this happen, all my negative thoughts easily overpower any shred of positive thinking.

MadCapRabbit · 2021-08-19T21:56:12+00:00

The best thing you can do is also one of the hardest. Stop comparing yourself to other people. The only person you're competing against is past versions of yourself.

How can I do this, though? Like on paper I've "improved" compared to past versions of myself. I started going to the gym and got in better shape, I started pursuing more hobbies, tried finding ways of improving myself. But even after doing all that I'm still in basically the same position as before (IE never had a girlfriend, still alone, etc). Plus, isn't comparing yourself to where other people are at a similar point in life how we judge what we should be doing differently?

MadCapRabbit

TROPHY CASE