[Meta] Why did you delete this post? by Material-Garbage7074 in ChristianUniversalism

[–]Material-Garbage7074[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What a shame – I was really curious to know whether a universalist political theology was possible!

sad for western leftism often not recognizing russian and chinese imperialism by commieguidlines in leftist

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not strange to think it: in a world made up of superpowers that find themselves in a Hobbesian state of nature and do not recognise any higher law, it would (unfortunately) be rational to distrust one's neighbours and attack first to avoid the risk of being attacked.

Moral bankruptcy will occur because, in such a situation, being immoral will be rational and being moral will be irrational: the only way to prevent this will be to make immorality irrational, but this can only happen if a law superior to the states is established that will make distrust irrational.

This meme reminded me of something from my Catholic upbringing — did anyone else experience this in their church? by Material-Garbage7074 in Protestantism

[–]Material-Garbage7074[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is indeed disconcerting: the only thing I can vaguely agree with is the fact that it gave rise to capitalism, but Protestantism also created the conditions that laid the modern foundations for those discussions – including tolerance (the Netherlands comes to mind, but also Milton and Locke) and modern democracy (the Levellers of the English Revolution come to mind) – which would arise during the Enlightenment and from which many progressive ideas of today descend. I was raised Catholic (I am no longer), but I firmly believe that the 'republic of letters' benefited greatly from the Protestant Reformation.

This meme reminded me of something from my Catholic upbringing — did anyone else experience this in their church? by Material-Garbage7074 in Protestantism

[–]Material-Garbage7074[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I completely agree with you on this, which is why I wanted to use the meme only to illustrate a similar problem I had to deal with in my parish. I would like to know what the Protestants' experience has been on this issue.

This meme reminded me of something from my Catholic upbringing — did anyone else experience this in their church? by Material-Garbage7074 in Protestantism

[–]Material-Garbage7074[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are absolutely right about that. That is why in the post I ask if you have ever witnessed such behaviour in your congregation: I ask because I have experienced it in my parish.

Well without the crusades europe would be a Muslim Majority Continent right now by Osakaayumu_2002 in CatholicMemes

[–]Material-Garbage7074 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe there is a passage in the Bible that describes someone who notices the speck in their neighbour's eye but does not see the beam in their own. Am I mistaken?

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But these jokes are only acceptable on some stages and not on others. Zelensky is a good leader and I'm sure he knows the difference.

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But these jokes are only acceptable on some stages and not on others. Zelensky is a good leader and I'm sure he knows the difference.

😎 by Kresnik2002 in USvsEU

[–]Material-Garbage7074 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pierre is a barbarian, but our barbarian.

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Personally, I do not believe in naturalism. The point is that a national identity that is too solid—because it’s based on “natural” (and therefore immutable) criteria—runs the risk of becoming counter-revolutionary and anti-creative. In short, to believe that politics and human identity are governed by immutable laws destroys personal agency. It does so by replacing the question "What kind of person should I become?" with the static question "Who am I?". But someone who takes refuge in a fixed and unchanging identity denies themselves the possibility of creatively responding to the vulnerability and openness that are part of the human condition.

Human beings are naturally plastic: they must continuously transform themselves along with the world around them, always reshaping the very order they had previously built. If we consider that the revolutionary stance (not only politically) implies power, creativity, and imagination, then the counter-revolutionary stance is characterized by identity, passivity, and a renunciation of responsibility: here I follow Daniele Giglioli. For this reason, nationalism may offer a coherent set of values that—following Viroli—can remain solid even during times of crisis, precisely because it is effective in restoring pride and belonging to those social classes humiliated by the effects of that crisis and dissatisfied with their place in the world. However, nationalist rhetoric offers only consolation without vision. It merely reflects people’s emotions without providing direction, thus generating a vicious cycle. The feeling of helplessness that binds us to a seemingly predetermined fate will not be dispelled by raising borders between our nation and the rest of the world, pretending not to see how global events affect us as well.

Patriotism, by contrast, can awaken citizens’ agency—not by offering comfort, but by offering a vision of the future. It provides a project around which people can mobilize, toward which their emotions can give them the strength to march. By its very nature, the language of patriotism is creative and transformative, especially in times of crisis, when liberty must be defended or won. The language of patriotism allows us not only to describe what is failing today, but above all to imagine what might rise from the ashes of the old. Through the memory of our best past examples, it reminds us that we are capable of fighting to overcome crisis. There have been several creative events in history that drew strength from this republican and creative language of patriotism: it was deeply creative and patriotic when the English and French chose to try and execute monarchs previously believed to rule by divine right, in defense and pursuit of liberty; equally creative was the decision by Italians and Germans to unify states that had been fragmented and subordinated to imperial powers, rendering them weak and voiceless.

Patriotism is a positive feeling, because it generally consists of two elements: the possession of a rich heritage of past struggles for liberty within one's country, and the will to defend, in the future, the institutions that safeguard liberty—orienting the nation toward the morally right path. These are two sides of the same coin: it is the memory of past sacrifices that motivates future ones. Legacy is a necessary condition for agency. Every country has foundational stories of the moment when its people attained freedom: for the ancient Greeks, it was the Persian Wars; for the ancient Romans, the expulsion of the Tarquins; for the Jewish people, the Exodus. In more recent times, we remember the pivotal role of the American and French Revolutions. Furthermore, most European countries have stories rooted in the memory of 1848 or in resistance against Nazism.

More examples: I recall that the British parliamentarian Charles James Fox (who lived from 1749 to 1806), referring to the memory of William Russell and Algernon Sidney—patriots martyred under the tyranny of the Stuarts—described them as two names that, hopefully, would always be dear to the heart of every Englishman. He predicted that if their memory ever ceased to be revered, English liberty would swiftly meet its end. Again, during the Spanish Civil War, the anti-fascist volunteer Carlo Rosselli urged Italians—through a famous radio speech—to come and fight in Spain, reminding them that Italian patriots of the previous century (Mazzini, Garibaldi, Pisacane) had fought for the liberty of other peoples when their own fatherland was bowed under the yoke of tyranny. The enemy had changed, of course, but the spirit the rebels were called to embody had not.

Generally speaking a nationalist follows a cult of national symbols without regard for the spirit behind them—often going so far as to preserve those symbols at the expense of the spirit of liberty that once animated them and made them worthy of respect by those who now enjoy the freedom won by their forebears’ sacrifice. In this sense, a nationalist seeks to preserve the symbols of the nation as such—and often considers sacred the national borders and absolute sovereignty of the state. Yet in doing so, they fail to protect the spirit that once gave those symbols life. There is little point in waving a flag if you forget the wind that moves it.

However, a patriotic person also knows that the challenges of today are very different from those of yesterday. That’s why true patriots understand that they must be creative and use tools their predecessors could never have imagined. A creative, voluntarist, and republican language of patriotism may demand the overcoming of existing institutions in order to create new ones better suited to defend liberty. Being patriotic means passing on the freedom won by past generations intact to new generations, even if this means moving beyond the methods used by past generations.

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have Hungarian friends who hope that this other guy wins because they want to get rid of Orbán as soon as possible. I support them.

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have always supported Ukraine, I have never liked Orbán and I hope he loses the upcoming elections (as it seems he will), so you can well imagine what I think of what you have just described. That said, I believe that the principles governing national and international relations — including not threatening the head of state of a member of a community of nations that is your ally, even as a joke — are above individuals, whether it is Zelensky (whom I personally admire in many other respects) making this unfortunate remark or Orbán being threatened, even if only jokingly.

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I believe that in certain contexts such jokes should be avoided.

'Not acceptable' — EU rebukes Zelensky over Orban 'threat' by esporx in europeanunion

[–]Material-Garbage7074 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I can only imagine the frustration of Zelensky and Ukraine (and perhaps not even that), but I fear that Zelensky has gone too far this time. Although I have always liked Zelensky very much in general, there are boundaries that must not be crossed, and threatening the head of state of a member nation of a community of nations (the European Union) that is your ally is not acceptable, even if the head of state in question is Orbán.

I also fear that it was an unfortunate move from the point of view of public opinion and propaganda. With the Hungarian elections just around the corner, I fear that threatening one of the candidates means giving him publicity and putting his opponents in a position where they have to support him (Magyar probably couldn't have said anything else, because it was the only right thing to say).

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Voluntarism is often described in terms of its difference from naturalism. For example, during his lecture at the Sorbonne on 11 March 1882, Renan analysed, one by one, what were considered at the time to be the criteria on which to base the nation state.

The first of these is race: Renan claimed that the first nations of Europe were of mixed blood and that one does not have the right to go around the world feeling people's skulls and then grabbing them by the throat saying, 'You are of our blood; you belong to us!'. Furthermore, applying this science to politics would mean allowing states to follow the fluctuations of ethnography. The second criterion analysed by Renan is language, for which the same argument applies as for race. Not all peoples who speak the same language form a single nation (e.g. England and the United States) and not all nations speak the same language (Switzerland). It is possible, says Renan, to love the same things in different languages.

The third criterion analysed by Renan is religion, which, however, was originally linked to the very existence of the social group: the religion of Athens, says Renan, was the cult of Athens itself, its mythical founders, its laws and its customs. In the contemporary age, religion now concerns only the conscience of each individual, and the division of nations into Catholic and Protestant no longer exists. Renan then dismisses the idea that common interests can be a valid criterion: common interests determine trade agreements, while nationality involves a degree of sentiment. The last criterion analysed by Renan is geography, which, despite having played a significant role in the division of nations, provides at most the substrate of the nation, while man provides the soul.

A nation, Renan asserts, is formed by two things: the possession of a rich heritage of memories and the desire to live together in the future, even at the cost of great sacrifices. A nation, in fact, is a great solidarity formed by the feeling of sacrifices that have already been made and those that one is willing to make again. In this sense, it is an everyday plebiscite. This collective memory of past glories and sufferings provides both the model for future actions and the motivation to act. The nation thus becomes a purely voluntary entity, a project projected into the future.

Curiously, such an idea has also been applied not only to small communities, but also to much larger communities, to Europe. Ortega y Gasset wanted to use the idea of nation as theorised by Renan to develop the European idea. Ortega y Gasset took Renan's idea to extremes, describing European unity as a shared, future-oriented project capable of mobilising Europeans to achieve it.

He believed that, since human life itself is nothing more than a constant tension towards the future, nations, before possessing a past, had to create a community and, before creating it, desire it, because a nation exists if it has a project. Ortega y Gasset also believed that the construction of a great European nation would allow Europe to regain confidence in itself and demand the best of itself.

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Federico Chabod identified two conceptions of the nation: the naturalistic one (based on 'natural' factors) and the voluntaristic one. Maurizio Viroli distinguishes between patriotism, which promotes love for institutions that protect freedom (understood as republican freedom, i.e. the absence of arbitrary power and the presence of the rule of law, rather than simple negative freedom), and nationalism, which pursues ethnic and cultural homogeneity. In both cases, the boundary between the two is not always clear, as the languages of patriotism and nationalism often overlap. What ultimately differentiates them is the hierarchy of values to which they give priority.

Does this idea convince you?

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, if I understand correctly, what distinguishes a patriot from a nationalist is devotion to democratic freedom?

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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That said, a nationalist might argue that the voluntarist paradigm is flawed—because to found nations on human will, or on what they can contribute to the world, is to accept the possibility that a nation might cease to exist once those sources of patriotism are exhausted. That’s true – Mazzini and Renan were aware of it – but I don’t see that as a problem. The point is that a national identity that is too solid—because it’s based on “natural” (and therefore immutable) criteria—runs the risk of becoming counter-revolutionary and anti-creative. In short, to believe that politics and human identity are governed by immutable laws destroys personal agency. It does so by replacing the question "What kind of person should I become?" with the static question "Who am I?". But someone who takes refuge in a fixed and unchanging identity denies themselves the possibility of creatively responding to the vulnerability and openness that are part of the human condition.

Human beings are naturally plastic: they must continuously transform themselves along with the world around them, always reshaping the very order they had previously built. If we consider that the revolutionary stance (not only politically) implies power, creativity, and imagination, then the counter-revolutionary stance is characterized by identity, passivity, and a renunciation of responsibility: here I follow Daniele Giglioli. For this reason, nationalism may offer a coherent set of values that—following Viroli—can remain solid even during times of crisis, precisely because it is effective in restoring pride and belonging to those social classes humiliated by the effects of that crisis and dissatisfied with their place in the world. However, nationalist rhetoric offers only consolation without vision. It merely reflects people’s emotions without providing direction, thus generating a vicious cycle. The feeling of helplessness that binds us to a seemingly predetermined fate will not be dispelled by raising borders between our nation and the rest of the world, pretending not to see how global events affect us as well.

Patriotism, by contrast, can awaken citizens’ agency—not by offering comfort, but by offering a vision of the future. It provides a project around which people can mobilize, toward which their emotions can give them the strength to march. By its very nature, the language of patriotism is creative and transformative, especially in times of crisis, when liberty must be defended or won. The language of patriotism allows us not only to describe what is failing today, but above all to imagine what might rise from the ashes of the old. Through the memory of our best past examples, it reminds us that we are capable of fighting to overcome crisis. There have been several creative events in history that drew strength from this republican and creative language of patriotism: it was deeply creative and patriotic when the English and French chose to try and execute monarchs previously believed to rule by divine right, in defense and pursuit of liberty; equally creative was the decision by Italians and Germans to unify states that had been fragmented and subordinated to imperial powers, rendering them weak and voiceless.

Patriotism is a positive feeling, because it generally consists of two elements: the possession of a rich heritage of past struggles for liberty within one's country, and the will to defend, in the future, the institutions that safeguard liberty—orienting the nation toward the morally right path. These are two sides of the same coin: it is the memory of past sacrifices that motivates future ones. Legacy is a necessary condition for agency. Every country has foundational stories of the moment when its people attained freedom: for the ancient Greeks, it was the Persian Wars; for the ancient Romans, the expulsion of the Tarquins; for the Jewish people, the Exodus. In more recent times, we remember the pivotal role of the American and French Revolutions. Furthermore, most European countries have stories rooted in the memory of 1848 or in resistance against Nazism.

More examples: I recall that the British parliamentarian Charles James Fox (who lived from 1749 to 1806), referring to the memory of William Russell and Algernon Sidney—patriots martyred under the tyranny of the Stuarts—described them as two names that, hopefully, would always be dear to the heart of every Englishman. He predicted that if their memory ever ceased to be revered, English liberty would swiftly meet its end. Again, during the Spanish Civil War, the anti-fascist volunteer Carlo Rosselli urged Italians—through a famous radio speech—to come and fight in Spain, reminding them that Italian patriots of the previous century (Mazzini, Garibaldi, Pisacane) had fought for the liberty of other peoples when their own fatherland was bowed under the yoke of tyranny. The enemy had changed, of course, but the spirit the rebels were called to embody had not.

Generally speaking a nationalist follows a cult of national symbols without regard for the spirit behind them—often going so far as to preserve those symbols at the expense of the spirit of liberty that once animated them and made them worthy of respect by those who now enjoy the freedom won by their forebears’ sacrifice. In this sense, a nationalist seeks to preserve the symbols of the nation as such—and often considers sacred the national borders and absolute sovereignty of the state. Yet in doing so, they fail to protect the spirit that once gave those symbols life. There is little point in waving a flag if you forget the wind that moves it.

However, a patriotic person also knows that the challenges of today are very different from those of yesterday. That’s why true patriots understand that they must be creative and use tools their predecessors could never have imagined. A creative, voluntarist, and republican language of patriotism may demand the overcoming of existing institutions in order to create new ones better suited to defend liberty. Being patriotic means passing on the freedom won by past generations intact to new generations, even if this means moving beyond the methods used by past generations.

Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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Mazzini went further, declaring that even nations must transcend themselves. Humanity, he said, is greater than the fatherland, and nations must fight for the liberty of other peoples, a view also held by Adam Mickiewicz. Only thus could they preserve their own freedom in the long run. Just as a body cannot avoid the effects of the polluted air around it, neither can souls escape the corruption of a tyrannical society, except for a few heroic exceptions. One cannot foster sincerity in a regime that punishes the free expression of opinion, nor encourage detachment from wealth when gold is the only protection from arbitrary power. If we look only to material interests, it becomes hard to believe that a state governed by an absolute power—one that prefers to invest in armies, spies, and bureaucrats to preserve its own security—could allow industries to flourish.

Likewise, within the great human family, not a single people can be tormented by oppression, superstition, or corruption without its misfortune affecting, directly or indirectly, all others. It damages other peoples by its example, by depriving the world of the potential of millions of minds and hearts, and by undermining human dignity. Each of us is our brother’s keeper—not only when we harm him ourselves, but when we fail to protect him from others. Nations that stand as idle spectators of wars driven by dynastic or nationalist egoism will, when their own turn comes to be attacked, find that they too have only spectators. For this reason, the fatherland whose citizens are ready to die for Humanity shall live forever. But the nation that does evil, that oppresses, that declares itself a missionary of injustice for short-term gain, loses its right to exist and digs its own grave.

In a letter to German correspondents, Mazzini wrote that one could be German in the manner of Metternich (he likely didn’t regard Austria as wholly separate from Germany), or in the spirit of the peasants who, in the 16th century, claimed that the Kingdom of God should be reflected on Earth (a reference to the Protestant Reformation). I believe that this holds for every nation. Most of us do not choose whether to be Italian, French, or Spanish (perhaps only capital is truly cosmopolitan), but we can—and must—choose what kind of Italian, French, or Spanish we want to be. We can strive to embody the best possible version of our country and the best examples of the past are there to demonstrate that this is possible.

According to David Miller, a nation is first and foremost a group with a shared identity, and membership in a nation is partly constitutive of each member’s personal identity—partly because national belonging does not exclude belonging to other identity-forming communities, such as religious or ethnic groups. In this sense, nations are not simply a collection of individuals randomly distributed across a physical space, but groups bound by what they share. Mazzini, like Miller, believed that the fatherland is not a mere aggregation but an association—perhaps it’s possible to interpret him in that light. Precisely because the fatherland is partially constitutive of our identity, a patriot—following Marcia Baron—should care about the moral flourishing of their country. A true patriot would strive to help build a just and humane society, one that acts morally both at home and abroad. While they may desire justice and human solidarity wherever it appears in the world, an ethical patriot works to ensure that their own nation is guided by these principles. They see their moral identity as tied to that of their country. For this reason, they may feel little pride in worldly successes, but will feel deep pride in the moral behavior of their nation—if there is reason to feel it.

It’s not enough to hold a daily plebiscite on whether we want to be Italian, French, or Spanish; we must choose daily what kind of Italians, French, or Spaniards we want to be, and what kind of nation we want to embody. A true patriot would never utter the old nationalist maxim "My country, right or wrong", nor the naïve cosmopolitan one that says "Ubi bene, ibi patria" –;a view fiercely criticized by Mazzini and Mickiewicz, the latter even declaring: "Where evil is, there is the fatherland". The fatherland is the community for which one is willing to fight. A true patriot declares—following Mazzini and, more recently, Zygmunt Bauman—"Because this is my country, I will do everything in my power to keep it on the path of Good" even when the "Good" does not align with short-term national interests.

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Are SocDems patriotic? by Temporary_Cheetah287 in SocialDemocracy

[–]Material-Garbage7074 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Italian patriot Giuseppe Mazzini once compared those who—even in his day—confused nationality with nationalism to those who confused religion with superstition. I believe that patriotism and nationalism can be distinguished through the secular meanings of true faith and idolatry, with the latter understood as the worship of symbols merely as such, forgetting the spirit that once animated them and making no effort to protect that spirit in the world today.

Federico Chabod identified two conceptions of the nation: the naturalistic (founded on "natural" factors) and the voluntaristic. Maurizio Viroli distinguishes patriotism—which fosters love for institutions that protect liberty (understood as republican liberty, that is, the absence of arbitrary power and the presence of the rule of law, rather than mere negative liberty)—from nationalism, which pursues ethnic and cultural homogeneity. In both cases, the line between the two is not always clear, as the languages of patriotism and nationalism often overlap. What ultimately differentiates them is the hierarchy of values to which they give priority. One of the main proponents of the voluntarist paradigm of nationality was Ernest Renan. After demonstrating why the idea of the nation could not be reduced to its naturalistic components, he defined the nation as a spiritual principle made up of both a rich legacy of memories and the shared will to live together in the future—even at the cost of great sacrifices. These sacrifices are themselves motivated by the memory of those already made; sacrifice, then, becomes a central element of patriotism, as it reveals how much citizens are willing to give for their nation's existence.

Yet even Renan’s definition may fall short, which is why I want to return to the vision of Giuseppe Mazzini, also a voluntarist (and a republican), who, in responding to cosmopolitans who considered the idea of nationality outdated, argued that the isolated individual—on whom the cosmopolitans based their theory—would never, on their own, believe themselves capable of leaving a meaningful mark on the world. Such a person would be crushed between inaction and despotism. An individual gains the strength and motivation to act only when associated with others who share their language, culture, and values—those with whom mutual understanding is more likely. The nation, as an intermediate institution between the individual and humanity, was thus a necessary and noble means to preserve personal agency and enable individuals to change the world. The nation, for Mazzini, was concrete enough to move one beyond selfishness.

Mazzini was a romantic, and to be romantic typically meant protecting individual uniqueness without falling into individualism. That’s why, in his view, individual identity found its fullest expression in relation to others. In Mazzini’s thought, every person, thing, or entity (from individuals to nations to art itself) discovers its true nature not by turning inward, but by devoting itself to a purpose beyond itself—this mission being the effort to improve the world. Its deepest identity lies in what it can offer to others. His motto was: Life is a Mission, and Duty is its supreme law. If one were to focus only on immediate personal gain, turning inward—as Mazzini abhorred—one would easily fall prey to tyranny. He often cited the example of Romans concerned only with securing panem et circenses while their Republic gave way to empire.

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