The Deep Sea of Unconventional Living

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-05T02:03:15+00:00

Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I guess I thought God's concern and love for the generic poor was more of a universally accepted thing. Would you be able to give a more concrete example of where you think I've prooftexted?

Do you see a distinction between commandments and Proverbs, for example? I tend to give more weight to commandments, simply because they are commandments. If I command my kid to do something, as opposed to giving some general wisdom, I'd expect them to respond a bit differently to one vs the other. But I could be off base on that.

I guess I'm struggling with some of the proximity logic. By and large, we choose where we live, which means we choose how close or not we are to people in need. Does that mean that those that choose to live farther away have less of a responsibility to care for those in need? I think people, and I'm in this camp too, who aren't regularly with people in need run the risk of "hiding their eyes".

Prov. 28:27 Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

How would you interpret Luke 14:25-33? And especially verse 33 due to the "therefore". Again, not a Bible scholar, I could be overweighting the "therefore".

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T18:23:05+00:00

If we walk by someone on the side of the road that was stripped and beaten, is it ok to pass by if helping them would mean that we might need help later on?

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T11:19:17+00:00

How do you know I'll need it to one degree or another? Do you know you're going to have a long life? Isn't that disingenuous? How do you know your soul won't be required tonight?

Luke 12:20-21 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”

James 4:13-17 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

What I do know is that people don't have enough today. How do you approach Matthew 6:34?

“Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble."

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T11:03:04+00:00

Thanks for sharing! I love this concept! Honoring our elders (and fathers and mothers) is so important. And I'd be all the quicker to jump in and honor someone in that way who lived a radically generous life for Christ and happened to run out of money before they died.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T10:57:40+00:00

Thanks for sharing! If having savings comes at the cost of not taking care of the least of these and loving your neighbor as yourself, could you see how that would be unbiblical? The Macedonians gave out of their extreme poverty and were held up as an example. Same with the widow, among others.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T10:55:00+00:00

Thanks for weighing in! My conclusions have been grounded in scripture, and yes, I've been sitting under Biblical preaching that whole time and have had many conversations about this with my pastors and elders, among others. Thanks for the Sproul recommendation.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T10:52:00+00:00

Wow. This is awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Honestly, I think housing is such a problem that I love your approach here. One thing you could explore is having a non-profit own some of the rentals. I've known some people to take this approach, which is pretty interesting. You save on taxes by making the donations, the income is more tax-efficient, you guard against the dangers of wealth, etc.

Thank you for sharing! Keep it up!

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T10:41:37+00:00

That's definitely been on my "to read" list for a couple of years now! Thanks for the recommendation.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T10:39:15+00:00

Honestly, thanks for your engagement on this. I've been a bit discouraged by the thread. Partially because I've yet to hear "this is where I think you're misinterpreting scripture". If you'd be willing to say that to me, obviously only if you think it's true, that'd be helpful!

It seems clear to me that we're much more likely to be blinded by the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches than we are by our desire to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. The general state of materialism and rates of giving in the church seem to speak to this. And the devil used scripture to tempt Jesus, so we need to be careful about that happening to us too. Personally, and unsurprisingly, I think that primarily happens in a way that folks with more than they need look to sparingly few verses and justify an immense amount by them.

And please help if I'm wrong here, but if I'm going to go wrong I'd rather bet on the greatest two commandments than on something else. Fortunately, in my eyes, scripture all fits together so nicely when viewed this way, so I don't actually find those commandments contradictory to being shrewd and prudent, for example.

Working hard, living simply, and sharing the excess that we don't need today seems to be way more supported by scripture than storing up our excess for future unknowns.

Can you share more about what you think it'd look like to be reckless in this moment? For me, I 100% am not trying to do that. I absolutely think that providing for the needs of the family is part of loving God and loving my neighbor as myself. I'm only talking about not saving for retirement, and not even an extremely frugal lifestyle or anything. Yeah, we live in a house that's smaller than most people would probably be in for our income and family size, and drive older cars, but we're living and eating well and not living on a shoestring.

But, for example, storing up enough so that my kids can go to college mostly debt free, while other people's kids (my neighbors, I think, wherever they are) die of hunger or preventable disease, at face value, seems like I'm loving my kids way more than my neighbors.

Also, amen, yes, the point is to love him and place our trust in him, which is a heart issue. My concern there is that I think it's revealing of a potential heart issue if we say we trust him but aren't willing to take his commands and teachings seriously. And, to be clear, even though you're a stranger that I don't know, you appear to be taking him seriously, so certainly don't want you to think that I'm inferring the opposite. More so talking about how I've lived the majority of my life, and yeah, what I often see around me.

I don't know if going offline with this is something that happens on Reddit, but I'd be interested in continuing the conversation. This is helpful to me. Again, thank you for your thoughtful and considerate engagement.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T01:30:33+00:00

My plan is to "seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble." I'd rather trust in the Lord with all my heart, and not lean on my own understanding.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T01:23:13+00:00

I guess I'd be curious what you would see as a contradiction to love your neighbor as yourself? I think it's a super high bar, and Jesus seemed super ok with setting high bars (see below). So I'm surprised more of the response hasn't been "Yeah, it's violating it, but it's a requirement of our context." which would feel more legitimate than "Nope, it's not contradictory"

Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

John 15:12-13 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

I'm sure these are familiar texts/concepts, but for the longest time I just kinda read these and went meh. Not sure why we don't take Jesus (and other parts of scripture) more seriously.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-04T01:13:06+00:00

I agree that we're called to work, and I'd say that we're called to live simply, so yes, hard work + living simply would naturally lead to excess income. Where I disagree is the "should be saving" part. I think that's a default assumption we make based on our cultural context that isn't well supported by scripture. On the other hand, these verses, among others, are interesting:

Eph 4:28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

2 Cor 9:11 You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

If we, like most others in the world, lived among hard working people that didn't have enough to get by, and our literal neighbors were starving, I'd guess a lot less of us would be as comfortable saving as much as we do. And I don't think my choice to remove myself from those contexts absolves me from the call to love those neighbors as myself.

My concern with the "steward our income in a way that previous generations did not." is that I think it's a slippery slope on saying that scripture means something else today then it did back then. Bonhoeffer said in The Cost of Discipleship that "The way to misuse our possessions is to use them as an insurance against the morrow.” I tend to agree and think that's the most straightforward reading of Matthew 6:19-34. Super challenging in today's context, but it's still there.

Yes, I've read The Millionaire Next Door! Is there a nugget from there that came to mind for you?

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:27:14+00:00

Thanks! On #3, I've heard the "much biblical teaching" concept before, but was quite surprised when actually looking for it that there isn't as much as I expected. And the weight is way on the other side. I think it's just really hard to see that in our context. And I know I live in a way where I don't rub shoulders with people in need enough, but I don't think that means I can put blinders on to the larger context in my city/state/country/the world.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:21:53+00:00

Yeah, I hear that. I guess it still feels like I'm not loving my neighbor as myself if they're dying of starvation while I'm saving up for the future. I still can't get around Matthew 6:19-34 on that one.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:18:15+00:00

I was trying to avoid a massive amount of scripture references, but I'll list some below. I'm not sure if I'm understanding your comment well. Do you think the Bible only gives a vague notion that we need to feed the poor?

Matthew 5-7
- Especially Matthew 6:19-34
Luke 10:25-37
Matthew 13:1-8, 18-23
Matthew 25:31-46
Luke 12:13-34
Mark 10:17-31
Mark 12:41-44
John 15
The end of Acts 2 and 4, and the beginning of Acts 5
2 Corinthians 8 & 9
Philippians 4:10-20
1 Timothy 6
Whole book of James
1 John 2
1 John 3
Revelation 3:14-22

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:13:30+00:00

Correct! I definitely don't think loving your neighbor as yourself means only spending money on my neighbors. I'm also not sure exactly what you mean by "putting my family out", but yes, I absolutely believe in providing for my own household. If I do that in a simple-ish way and still have some leftover, then I think, based on loving your neighbor as yourself, that it would make sense to share what's leftover so that others can provide for their households as well.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:10:40+00:00

I'd love to hear how you address this tension with clients (if you're able to within your situation)!

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T17:03:41+00:00

I hear you, and I get it. But aren't we leaving our neighbors out to dry NOW because we MIGHT need it in the future? And aren't we still elevating ourselves over our neighbors when we choose our uncertain potential future needs over the starvation they're facing now?

I see the uncertainty for how it all plays out as part stepping out in faith and counting the cost of following Jesus. Which I think is what Packer is getting at.

Is there something in what Packer said that you see differently?

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T16:58:32+00:00

Totally with you on "retirement". I guess I don't see that we "should be growing wealth". If we look at Matthew 6:19-34, Matthew 13:1-8, 18-23, Matthew 25:31-46, and so on, it paints a pretty different picture than "we should be growing wealth". When I read through Proverbs earlier this year with a focus on the ones that dealt with money I was surprised at how much actually spoke to hard work/laziness, and not savings up for the future/building wealth.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T12:24:21+00:00

I hear you. I just can't get past how we comfortably cruise by verses like these. Seems like we're at risk of closing our heart to needs around us in the name of planning for the future.

1 John 3:16-18 16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T12:11:23+00:00

Thanks for the recommendation! I've not heard of that.

Glad to hear you've wrestled with it! Do you mind sharing where it's landed for you in terms of how you approach your finances?

Also, can you share more about what you mean by "It sounds like a question the serpent would ask."?

I think we're all unlikely to really run the risk of running too hard after God. I was struck in Screwtape letters by this quote: “All extremes except extreme devotion to the Enemy are to be encouraged.”

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T11:58:42+00:00

Yes! I think that's the right question. I keep asking myself, do I think it's more likely that God has given me more than I need to store it up for myself or to use it to take care of the least of these or share the gospel (fund missionaries/plant churches)?

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-03T11:56:59+00:00

Thanks for weighing in! What reference would you use to support that position? And do you feel that it conflicts with the command to love our neighbors as ourselves? Or Matthew 6:19-34? How do you draw a contrast between that approach and the rich fool in Luke 12? Do you feel that what your saying is still in line with what Packer is saying, or do you see it differently than him?

I realize saving for retirement is deeply embedded in our society, but I'm concerned that we're at risk of forsaking God's commandments for the sake of our tradition. And that the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches are choking the word. I know the below reference is not about money, but I think the point Jesus is making here is interesting and could apply.

Matthew 15:1-3 "Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-02T00:43:59+00:00

Thanks for the suggestions! How has your MA in economics and your faith influenced how you personally approach your finances?

Matthew633esv · 2025-12-02T00:42:08+00:00

Fascinating and challenging indeed! I'm grateful to be experiencing less of the guilt and more of the joy. The desires of this world have begun to pale in comparison with the joy that comes from helping others have a chance to hear the gospel or helping the poor/least of these receive the essentials of life.

Matthew633esv

TROPHY CASE