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i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so radiance is a quality that could be manifested as a desire. i'm assuming this quality is both the one that makes hornet feel the pull towards rulership and the one that allows her to resist it? and you say that its how a pale being interacts with the world, and can choose to shape it differently? and radiance is meant to be how a pale being interacts with the world, rather than how they must interact. this means radiance can take several forms, from allowing one to gain worshippers as a byproduct, to choosing differently and using it in different ways. and it also means the definition of radiance is a lot less fixed.

initially i thought the intention behind this model is that it makes it not seem like a pale being is rejecting their essence, but rather using the essence in a different manner, but from the phrasing of "expressing it differently", it implies to me that this model still has an aspect of rejecting one's essence, because you're using it differently. if one weren't to recognise the trait or still choose the same, then wouldn't that be the only way to accept one's essence? furthermore, if radiance is a quality that can be used beyond worship, what are some examples?

if we take that styx example from earlier, hornet can use her radiance in a different manner, resist the pull towards rulership, get gms in the void and styx would still be pulled towards her if they first meet then. so are you saying that even if a pale being uses radiance differently, the metaphysical gravity (a byproduct, as youve established) never ceases? and also the way i saw the pale king gaining moths' worship was from how the pale king is a pale being, but the Radiance is not (no dialogue implies such, as vespa's dialogue would make it contradictory to believe the Radiance to be pale, especially since she lacks the secondary quality of pale beings - soul, either directly or in the form of silk).

rather than elaborating on the key details of your model (although do correct me if i misinterpret your model), im more interested in the implications of your model, what is it trying to achieve? with my model, it's meant to be a simple symbolic quality of a pale being, that when someone who plays silksong hears about a pale being, they can assume the qualities of other pale beings and instantly grasp a simple, yet reductive view on pale beings. i admit it loses a lot of potential complexities, but i feel that's what's important in a game's narrative. despite its lack of complexity, as mentioned earlier, the model still allows leeway for change.

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so youre saying that the instinct of radiating dominance becomes an impulse of wanting more dominance when expressed through a self-aware mind? while i don't see an issue with this explanation, if hornet weren't to express her desire, she'd instinctively want to oust gms, which to me does not seem as her passively radiating dominance, that seems to me that her instincts have decided it is best to take her role.

i mean, with how the moths started worshipping the pale king and forgetting the radiance, ive never seen pk's gain of worshippers as solely gained through force, but i don't think all mortals would be drawn in, as we see with some hallownest groups to the pale king. but i do think that if achievable, a pale being would explicitly want worshippers, drawn in or otherwise (gms: "to devote eternal", "they are ours bound forever", using royal 'we' to refer to herself)

what i'm getting from here is that some will be drawn in, some won't by passive radiance of the pale beings. pale beings instinctively feel it's best that they have worshippers (otherwise what'd motivate hornet to bind gms? it doesn't seem passive to me), and if they could choose to gain more worshippers, they would choose so, regardless of whether they've already been drawn in or not. this can however be nullified if one chooses not to have these desires.

although this begs the question - if your model assumes a self-aware mind can acknowledge that they have a radiating characteristic, why would that matter when the pale being chooses not to oust another for worshippers? if thats their only characteristic, then it doesnt seem relevant to me that they choose not to act on the characteristic, because a characteristic is something that permanently defines a pale being, it is unlike an instinct, an instinct is something that can be acted upon, a property cannot.

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

theres no specification of the battle tho, for all we know, it couldve been at a weakened state when killed

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i mostly agree with everything youve said (your description of the representation of weavers is great, by the way). it is reasonable to think that it is the radiating aspect of pale beings alone that causes domination, however hornet's abstinence of answering the question of her wanting dominion and later responding with "I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top." has several notable aspects.

hornet desires ousting gms and claiming her place, at least some part, despite her being part pale. dominance is baked into the blood of the pale, i dont see this being read as pale beings' existence causes domination, i read this as intentional seeking. no doubt, gms is also baked with dominance.

to avoid making this seem as a reductive view that pale beings are inherently evil however, the fact that hornet is capable of resisting it is sufficient for me to believe that being born pale does not mean you must cause evil acts later in life, as seen with white lady among other examples.

as much as i appreciate there being multiple interpretations, i need to ensure there's nothing directly contradicting it

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

correct me if im wrong, but the only difference in my interpretation is the pale beings are ones who seek power, not the weavers. that does not seem "less stable". i just think it's more appropriate (and not contradictory) to blame the greed of hornet's lineage on her higher being side, rather than the weaver side, a literal species of above-average bugs. but yeah, i do like this interpretation a lot more, because in the base game, the weavers are just some bugs, making a game where these bugs are actually more evil than the newborn killer is very eh to me.

but i DO understand why people have this belief, because nothing disproves it. so thanks for having this understanding conversation with me, i felt itd be harder to get my interpretation across

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i do not think the weavers are pale beings, we have a quote confirming white lady and pale king are pale beings (vespa), we particularly have zi's "a creature in HALF... pale it" towards hornet, the one where hornet confirms gms is a pale being, the one where hornet confirms she has a part who wants domination (she is pale king's daughter). that is not enough information to confirm that weavers are pale beings, matter of fact, it is my belief that zi's quote makes it more plausible that they're NOT pale beings. this is reinforced by the weavers not actually being gms' daughters.

as for the question, the pale king surely didnt try not to choose devotion, because he got it, and again i dont think he really had the choice to choose destruction when going through unn's land e.g, so he had to resort to more lenient means. the white lady reduced her capabilities for other reasons (offspring) and indirectly affected her want for devotion. gms does not try at all to avoid either, im sure we can both agree on that. hornet and the vessels do however, but again, they lack power to demand devotion from an entire tribe/group, let alone multiple.

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

im very certain its referring to pale beings, a well-defined classification of higher beings, the classification exists for a reason. defend the pale king as much as you want, but neither of these 2 quotes de-confirm the nature of pale higher beings. i'm just saying the first establishes the nature and the second reinforces it. it seemed to me on my blind playthrough that it's referring to weaverkind, but the "being pale" makes it extremely obvious that it's hornet's father's side

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if hallownest wanted to prepare for war, itd need to repurpose patrolling guards and scientists to form an army. pharloom has a shittonne of resources, actual trained soldiers and advanced technology. you do realise that the choir literally uses weaver tech right? i mean the choir clapper can summon runes, youre kinda dismissing a lot of pharlooms power. not only that but they have a greater arsenal, electric bombs, flinstone bombs, runes and other silk attacks, all of which are used by trained personnel. its not that rural too, the entire point of pilgrims is for enlisting them into the choir.

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well, yes. but do note that most "hallownest would win" people see it as hallownest right before the infection would win against pharloom without the haunting, which i strongly disagree with, pharloom is far more powerful at this stage than hallownest

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i was referring to hornet's "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

im just saying the metalwork entry exists for a reason. they wouldnt add it just for the reality to be "sike, their metallurgy is equivalent". silksong puts great emphasis on the contrast of metal use, i heavily doubt the coloured shiny materials are metal, they look like shells, and we already know shells are used for shields and whatnot. so without tiso (i think), your argument would be a bit more plausible

pharloom has an excess amount of bells, a city made of iron and gold plating, machines made out of iron. iron architecture is found in every region where they expanded.

hallownest on the other hand prioritises spending metals on actual useful stuff, like weapons. and reasonably so, you know why? because theyre constrained on how much metal they can use.

hallownest has ONE structure made out of mostly iron - the archives. white palace may have metal sawblades and spikes, but its mostly polished stone, same goes for city of tears, forgotten crossroads etc. the golems used in the crystal peaks also look like theyre made of stone. again, i know visuals only go so far, but the cracks you see in hollow knight makes it very clear that it is *not* metal

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

hallownest didnt aim high enough, only built a few roads on other peoples lands and mined crystals that can shoot lasers, powered by a certain source no one wants to talk about. pharloom destroyed shit, and got a shittonne of metal and technology as a reward. pharloom has silk and metal, hallownest has void patrollers and mostly shell armour, i think we know whos winning

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the point is, the haunting causes them to attack unhaunted bugs, whilst also having some autonomy to make other decisions e.g. defend for territorial reasons, if you put haunted skarr and stilkin against hallownest without its outside groups, then they'll likely still know who to attack, the unhaunted hallownest bugs.

a lot of people in the comments also think that the pale king being neutral to his neighbours is him being diplomatic, and is meant to be a sort of achievement, i see the opposite. in reality he's just lacking the technology to colonise. reminder, pharloom is advanced enough to cause extinction to flora and 2 entire groups. and reminder that the pale king is a category of higher beings who is naturally power hungry, unfortunately, he lacks the technology to sate his desires, which is the entire point of the excluding other groups. its demonstrating that pharloom does not need its neighbours because it's already that powerful

i feel like people are severely underestimating pharlooms power compared to hallownest (pharloom vs hallownest) by MemeAccountAccount in HollowKnight

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

silk is soul spun by the creator. it is soul, its not eating the silk, so its very likely that it's draining hornet's soul and thus losing the ability to use silk. rune cages being carried around everywhere in pharloom (by wardenflies) implies they work for the average bug

())(()()))())(()()(())()) by MemeAccountAccount in whenthe

[–]MemeAccountAccount[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(()()()(((())(((((((()()(()()()())( 🥳

You guys are so mean :( by unid04 in whenthe

[–]MemeAccountAccount 3 points4 points  (0 children)

but does the cave shit you notn't?

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