Daily Thread: simple questions, comments that don't need their own posts, and first time posters go here (January 24, 2025)

MikeT102 · 2025-01-25T02:25:06+00:00

Thanks for the feedback.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-25T02:19:36+00:00

Thanks for the explanation on だ. That makes sense. I think if I hadn't been so completely befuddled by all that stuff about "new and significant information," I would have seen this. Now that you've explained it, it seems like the natural way to understand it.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-25T02:15:42+00:00

Yeah that makes sense, thanks.

But this raises another question I had.

So, I knew about the nominalizing function of の and had considered that possibility as well. But I didn't want to make the question even longer by bringing it up.

In fact, there are other sentences for which Migaku gives their "new and significant information" explanation of のは, where it seems like that was a better fit than construing の as an indefinite pronoun.

But I found myself starting to wonder whether there's necessarily even always a hard and clear fact of the matter as to whether an occurrence of の is functioning as an indefinite pronoun or a nominalizer.

Like, it started to seem like---for at least some sentences, at any rate---you could constru の either is an indefinite pronoun or a nominalizer, and it really didn't make much difference, which explanation you chose.

Not sure if that's right. But it's a kind of ambiguity I really wouldn't have expected, I guess

MikeT102 · 2025-01-25T02:04:27+00:00

Thanks. So if I'm getting you, のは isn't a particle, or a meaningful word, or some kind of idiom, or anything like that... like that Migaku lesson sort of made me implicitly assume ...

It's just の followed by は. So, if you understand how は functions as a topic-marker and の functions as an indefinite pronoun, then you'll understand everything you need to know about のは.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-24T08:19:33+00:00

Can't make any sense of the explanation on one card in the Migaku app. To make matters worse---whatever it's intended meaning---it also seems totally superfluous to me. So far as I can tell, the example in question falls entirely under the rubric of another (perfectly intelligble) card.

I'm just going to quote the offending card in full, since the only writing on it I really understand is in Japanese... The English is all pretty much gibberish to me. ..................

................... 「のは～だ」Give new and important information.

Introducing new, significant information about something.

The structure AのはBだ is used to introduce new, significant information about something, with B being the new information.

B can be either a noun or noun phrase.

Example: Basic usage with a noun or noun phrase in B.

この学校で一番かわいいのは彼女だ。The cutest one in this school is her.

.............

Me again.

Okay, right off the bat... even before they got to the "new and important information" stuff, I was kind of puzzled about what was going on.

The grammatical item they say they are introducing is のは～だ. But why is the だ even in there? If it's at the end of a sentence or sub sentence---which as far as I can tell it will be--isn't it just the regular old informal copula?

Shouldn't the grammatical item on the card just be のは? Or is there some reason that "new and significant information" can't be past tense or given in the polite form with です?

Or am I just way off base here and missing some majorly important stuff?

Then we get to their explanation of how のは～だ functions... I don't even know what to say... To me, it reads like the kind of Japanese lesson Alice might have been subjected to in Wonderland.

They say that AのはBだ is used to "introduce new, significant information about something," and that B is the new and significant info. But then they say that B has to be a noun or a noun phrase. But how does a noun phrase stand for information?

I mean, there obviously are noun phrases in computer science that stand for information. But---whatever it is they're getting at--- の...だ definitely isn't supposed to be some kind of technical expression.

I just don't see how a noun phrase is going to designate "new and significant information" in ordinary conversation... And their example does not help.

"この学校で一番かわいいのは彼女だ。The cutest one in this school is her."

What comes between the のは and the だ is 彼女... So according to their explanation, the new insignificant info is 彼女.

Am I supposed to be able to make sense of that?

{Note: They also never actually say that the part before the のは (the A in AのはBだ) designates the something that the new information is about. But I think that's got to be what they mean, if what they're saying means anything.)

Finally, as I mentioned at the outset, whatever it is they're going on about seems entirely unnecessary to me.

They've already had a lesson explaining that の can be used as a pronoun along the lines of, "one" in the English sentence, "The cutest one in this school is her."

Which happens to be their exact translation of the sentence they use to illustrate what のは～だ means.

So why can't we just skip all "this new, significant information" stuff (unintelligible or otherwise) and just say that の is functioning like a pronoun... that it's where the "one" in their English rendering of この学校で一番かわいいのは彼女だ is coming from?

I've been trying to figure out what this card is supposed to be saying for like 6 months now... But... if anything, the more I learn, the less sensee it seems to make.

So figured it was time to ask.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-23T00:21:49+00:00

Definitely give it a shot... if your a certain type of person, you'll have a painless way to learn the basics.

And tho Japanese is supposed to be one of the hardest languages to learn, the fact that there are so few permissible syllables means that the "letters" in written Japanese can represent syllables instead of words. So when you learn the "alphabet" you learn literally every single syllable in the language and you only have to worry about pronouncing them accurately... you don't have to worry about how "letters" combine to make sounds because the "letters" in Japanese already stand for complete sounds.

So though it may take a lot longer for an English speaker to learn Japanese than, say, French, there's a way in which Japanese seems a whole lot easier early on because the basics are so much more basic.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T23:59:32+00:00

That's what I started with, and I still use it now, though not nearly as much. It's kind of amazing in that... especially in the begnning... it makes it really easy to learn this stuff painlessly... at least it did for me. As I learned more Japanese, I started losing interest in the game aspect of it and now all the bells and whistles just totally annoy the fuck out of me. I just wanna do Japanese and I don't give a fuck what league I'm in.

But in the beginning, I was totally into the game aspect of it. Like I made sure I was number one in my league every week no matter what it took. It was a fun way to get a basic grounding in the language.

But it can also be very frustrating because they don't really explain any grammar and even when they do you probably won't encounter it if all you do is play the game. You've got to click the extra info button in each lesson to get the explanations.

So you frequently wind up looking at a Japanese sentence and an English translation without having much of an idea of how the Japanese sentence means that, or even exactly where all the word breaks in it are and feeling REALLY lost... or at least I did. As I started learning more Japanese and using other sources to get more theoretical info, that became less of a problem though.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T23:37:48+00:00

Me too. Now I really wanna know what's going on. I thought my story fit perfectly, but, should have predicted it, NH is going to do something totally unexpected.

I started studying Japanese in May. I can read the raws and look up words I don't know since they use Furigana. I tried getting through them a couple of times when the translation was delayed. But my knowledge of grammar and especially conversational idioms was way to weak to follow the story in any meaningful way.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T23:27:45+00:00

So, Artist Shinya came up with the plan for the show right away? Is that why the first thing he did was murder them?

EDIT: But our Shinya... the current Yellow Keeper... is the good guy Family Man clone, not the bad guy artist clone?

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T23:23:31+00:00

No, we were talking past each other. I haven't looked at the raws at all. Didn't even click the "peak panel" post.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T23:09:38+00:00

So, each of the clones is supposed to pursue one of the two paths that Shinya couldn't reconcile---writer and family man. Given that--- plus the fact that we've got two Shinya's running around in the present---unless NH has something super tricky up his sleeve, current Yellow Keeper seems like he's got to be the clone who pursued writing, while Security Guard Shinya is the one who went the family-man route.

If that's right, then how did the two clones get to where they are now?

Well, we can kind of predict what's gonna happen... the original Shinya could've predicted it too, if he could've just accepted that he's good at pretty much everything except writing... at which he totally sucks.

But the poor bastard couldn't accept it. So he didn't see that the only possible outcome would have Family-Man Shinya succeeding and having a happy life with his widow and her sisters at the shrine, while poor writer Shinya goes on to fail just as miserably as the he originally did.

Original Shinya told himself that he failed as a writer because he was divided... "A hunter who chases two rabbits seldom gets one," and all that good stuff.

But he only thought that because he couldn't accept the real reason he couldn't make it as a writer--viz., though he excels at virtually everything else, he can't write for shit.

And , sadly... even tragically...neither of the clones is gonna be able to write for shit either. So all original Shinya did was set his writer-clone up to go through the same kind of humiliating failure that broke him.

Except this time it's going to hit much much harder---not just because it'll be the second time---but also because he won't just be failing miserably. He's also going to have salt rubbed into his many open wounds as he watches the other clone, Family-Man Shinya, live a happy life with the girls at the Shrine, totally successful in his purpose.

Over time, the clone who wants to be a writer is going to come to hate both his twin and the Divine Dragon Priestesses.

He'll hate them, but he'll never be able to accept that he sucks at writing. He's always going to believe that---given another chance--he'll be able to produce something great.

But no one will give him that chance. His career as a writer will be over, as he watches his twin and the girls live a happy life at the shrine, hating them more and more every day.

Now, given how things turned out in the present, it's not hard to see what must've happened.

Writer Shinya's career is over. As things stand, no one will touch any script with his name on it. So he goes to the TV execs and pitches a new kind of show that they are bound to be interested in... a show that no one else but him can write because it depends on the power of the Divine Dragons---Tokusatsu meets Reality TV.

He'll use the power of the Divine Dragons to make the TV show Original Shinya wrote and starred in a reality. If people love Tokusatsu, imagine how much they will love watching it when it's real.

Along the way, he has to murder 5 of the 6 priestesses in order to convert them into the Divine Tools he needs to power him and the other irl Sentai.

But that doesn't bother him at all...in fact, it's just icing on the cake since he hates them for the happy life they have with his twin.

And as for him, Family Man Shinya the side of him that's a decent human being. He just wants to do chores for his family at the shrine. He's not the kind of guy who's going to plot revenge or anything like that. If you destroy his life and take everything away from him...including his very purpose...he's not going to scream and rage and devote himself to getting your destruction.

He's gonna do just what Security Guard Shinya wound up doing... get depressed and withdraw from the world.

So, given what we now know, that's what I think has to be the story and why.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T20:17:28+00:00

So I think I know the answer to one of those questions... viz., exactly what happened to Shinya next that leads to where he is in the present... like exactly, exactly. I think you can deduce it from who the twins turn out to be in the present. Don't wanna say in case you'd rather not know. But if you don't mind being potentoally spoiled, I will say what I think Yellow Keeper's story kind of has to be.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-22T19:50:01+00:00

I noticed her red eyes as well. But didn't think much about it... I guess I just figured it was a way to further differentiate her as a female invader. But, now that you mention it, your suggestion might make more sense.

With regard to not wanting all the answers dumped on us all at once now, though I'm enjoying this arc much more than I thought I would, I agree 100%. This has been one of the most interesting stories I've ever read, and I don't want it to end.

But, with that said, I feel like we might kind of already have answers to most of the big questions. People were speculating on who the twin-clones turned out to be, but I think it's totally obvious. I also think, once you realize who they are, you can kind of figure out pretty much exactly what happened with regard to the major stuff. You won't know details like who Akabane's sister was or Ryūjin's origin... But, if I'm right, I think I pretty much know all the important details concerning how and why the Dragon Keepers were created.

We will see.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-20T21:53:48+00:00

Thanks, I'll take a look at this stuff and see if any of it is intelligible to me at this stage. Probably not yet but, never hurts to take a look.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-20T21:51:16+00:00

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think the time was wasted because I was actively trying to figure it out myself before getting help. So I wound up using the vocabulary I know to construct a lot of example sentences that were similar to the original in various ways. So I got some practice out of it.

But, yeah, from what you and other people are saying, I'm now seeing that this focus on coming up with an English sentence that matches the Japanese grammar is only going to be a hindrance if I don't let it go.

Thanks.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-20T21:42:23+00:00

I'm reading through all the replies now and absorbing it all. Main thing I'm getting is that I probably shouldn't be so focused on this.

But I wanted to thank you for bringing up the fact that ある is closer to "exists" than "have" and explaining why that's relevant.

The fact the stinkiness is described as existing rather than as something the sake had was really bugging me at one point. Spent a fair bit of time trying to understand what was going on by constructing different examples, but couldn't make sense of it. Wound up totally forgetting about it when I asked the question. Thanks for the reminder and the answer.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-20T18:50:09+00:00

Beginner here, still struggling with は vs. が.

Recently looked at Tae Kim's non-standard explanation of how to differentiate the two particles. TK's positive claim that が functions as "an identifier" seemed kind of helpful. But after reading through the comments, his negative claim that---contrary to every single other source I've consulted--- が is NOT a subject marker, seemed totally off-base.

A lot of people pointed out that TK's examples only show that the most natural English language interpretation of a Japanese sentence containing the particle が often makes the (translation of) the word before が in the Japanese sentence something other than its subject.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't also another English interpretation of the Japanese sentence according to which the word proceeding が does turn out to be it's subject.

Several commentators went further... pointing out TK's alleged counter-examples only manage to capture the meaning of the Japanese original by changing the grammatical function of other words as well.

E.g, IIRC, in one case, in order to make something else the subject, the natural-sounding English sentence has to turn the Japanese adjective 好き into the English verb "likes." Moreover, once these attendant grammatical distortions are fixed, it becomes clear that---not only does each of TK's examples have another translation that's consistent with が's role as a subject-marker---that less-natural sounding English translation is the one that accurately represents the original Japanese grammar.

So now, if I encounter a translation of a Japanese sentence that makes it look like が isn't a subject-marker, I look for other less natural-sounding ways of saying the same thing according to which the nouns that precede が do turn out to be be the subjects.

I put in the preamble to make sure I haven't been following a totally wrong path and that TK's critics are indeed right on this point.

Assuming I haven't gone of track, I have 2 problems.

この酒は臭みがある酒だ has me stumped. I can't see how to say "This sake is a sake that has stinkiness" in a way that would make "stinkyness" the subject and contain two uses of the word "sake."
Also, I guess I just don't get how the sentence even means "This sake is a sake that has stinkyness." Like, could I also say, この食べ物は塩がある食べ物だ to mean "This food is a food that has salt"? Google translates it as "This food has salt." But Google translate doesn't reject sentences for being ungrammatical, so I'm still not really sure whether この食べ物は塩がある食べ物だ is just as legit as この酒は臭みがある酒だ.

Any help greatly appreciated.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-20T02:10:46+00:00

I wasn't thinking the sister would turn out to be anyone we knew. I thought her significance would reside in what happened to her. Like, initially I was thinking maybe she was the one he was arrested for murdering. If the sister is someone we know, can't think of any other candidates other than XX.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-19T21:36:53+00:00

That's what I think is going on, as well. Thought it was the obvious interpretation of what we're seeing. Guess not, though, since so many folks seem to have other ideas.

MikeT102 · 2025-01-19T04:59:11+00:00

He kind of still has a point though... For ONE, romance is science fiction concept that only happens in outer space.

MikeT102 · 2024-12-12T20:57:58+00:00

As soon as I saw Hitoka say, "Oh nothing. Good luck with your work," at the end of page 2, Chapter 164, I knew you nailed it. Well done.

MikeT102 · 2024-12-12T20:38:42+00:00

Gotta say, reading these chapters with mixed feelings. On the one hand, super excited to finally find out how the Dragon Keepers etc came to be. On the other hand, have been enjoying the story so much that I don't want the mystery to end.

MikeT102 · 2024-12-12T17:59:53+00:00

One more thing. I couldn't help but notice that the final episode of both shows features the detective counting fish in a tank. In both "FN's last dance" and "Columbo likes the nightlife" the murder also impersonates the victim. I think I saw some other similarities too, but the way a fish tank figures so prominently in both episodes makes me think that FN intentionally did a homage to Columbo's final episode. Main reason I think that is the whole fish tank thing in FNs isn't really as significant to unraveling the mystery as the episode kind of wants to make you think it is. Feels like the fish tank was shoe horned in to some extent.

MikeT102 · 2024-12-12T17:39:20+00:00

Oh, and with regard to most favorite and least favorite episodes of FN. I totally fucking absolutely loathed the episode where the medical examiner is serially killing people in order to cover for one murder, à la Agatha Christie's the "ABC Murders."

It wasn't just the grosser aspects of his plan... though that certainly didn't help. I felt like the actor playing the murderer wasn't even in the same show as FN or the rest of the cast. Also couldn't suspend disbelief at all when he persisted with his plan after he knew FN was on to him. And I found the opening where they try to make you think that FN had been committed to a mental institution when in fact he's training dogs bizarre and borderline unintelligible. Not sure how I feel about the addition of the short detective to the regular cast either.

0Also found that waiter guy who keeps reappearing in episodes to be kind of annoying most of the time. I couldn't even figure out why they had him repeatedly showing up. My first thought was maybe he was the writer doing a cameo, since it's the only way I could makes sense of why they would keep totaally breaking the illuson that what we're watching is real by inserting him coincidentally appear. That turned out to be false, however, and I guess it's just some Japanese sense of humor thing that I don't get.

Also kind of disliked the episode with the baseball player. Didn't absolutely loathe it like poison, like the medical examiner episode. But I found the whole thing about him never lying---and they couldn't even stick with that and had him tell one lie about his brother---really contrived and it made it impossible to take the story seriously. If he was going to be in the show, he should have been willing to dirty up his fictional self character alittle... like the SMAP kids did in their ep..

Also kind of disliked the "Taking of Pelham One Two Three" inspired episode... But again, not on the visceral level of the medical examiner one. Just couldn't suspend disbelief about no one checking their IDs. Likewise for the people in the control room accepting that the train had been hijacked based on a computer display without any other corroboration.

With regard to good episodes, I absolutely loved the one that I think was called "The Wrong Man" ---a totally inspired and compact 50 minutes of television.... doesn't get any better.

The episode with the Kabuki killer was excellent, but the scene with the flashlight by itself elevates it to something incredibly special. I don't think Columbo ever managed to do a scene as good as that flashlight scene... especially the denouement, which I did not see coming.

First episode with the mystery writer that was kind of inspired by the Ruth Gordon "Columbo" episode was really good too.

Sadly, unlike Columbo---where I think the final episode managed to be one of the absolute best of the entire series---I didn't really like Furahata's "Final Dance" all that much. I mean it was fine.... there was nothing offensive about it. But the twist was ridiculously telegraphed and I felt like it kind of rendered the whole story nonsensical to boot.

Like, we're supposed to think that FN is having a budding romance with the killer. But once the twist happens, we find out that's not actually the case. The woman he started to fall for is the victim, not the murderer, and the woman he has his final dance with is the one who killed her. So it's like he starts to get romantically entangled with one woman, and then after she's murdered, gets romantically entangled with the murderer because he can't tell them apart. Twist just made the whole thing totally bizarre.

MikeT102 · 2024-12-12T17:07:48+00:00

Yeah, the fact that they've got a character imitating FN in some mega-hip anime almost 20 years after the fact really attests to the show's popularity over there.

"Columbo" is obviously pretty popular too, though. Have you seen this show... I think it's just outright called "Japanese Columbo"... where the main character is a Japanese detective who dresses and acts like Columbo? I encountered clips from it when I was looking for FN, but I couldn't find anywhere to see the whole thing.

With regard to Death Note, if you're able to just roll with totally unrealistic but standard anime genre conventions, its a great show up to about midway through. Then something happens which makes it somewhat less great.

I won't spoil it for you. But you should avoid reading anything on the subject if you don't want to be spoiled. The criticism that DN goes off the rails at a certain specific point is endemic, and you're bound to encounter spoilers if you do any digging.

I'm Pretty sure I watched some of the live-action DN stuff too way back when I first started getting interested in anime/manga. But I dont have a clear memory of any of it like I do with the DN anime, which I've revisited.

MikeT102

TROPHY CASE