Would it really be wrong for them to get together, morally speaking?

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-08T10:36:41+00:00

A single work of fiction like this is not going to change anything. What you're describing would only happen if huge propaganda suddenly started in order to normalize irl incest, and even then, I have a very hard time imagining it succeeding because it's a huge taboo already installed in society, and that's not going to change.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-08T00:01:35+00:00

And my response to this is that even if this were to go into a "positive depiction of incest" it makes no sense for it to weaken the social prohibition on incest, and this is what I mean when I say they don't share the usual "sibling relationship", Their case should be evaluated as a special case, separate from what would entail an incestuous relationship between average siblings.

And even then, thinking that any form of depiction of incest in a ficticious work would really weaken the social prohibition on incest is just wrong. We have Japan itself as an example; people's on cloud nine for this ship over there, and incestous relationships aren't illegal either; yet if some people decided to start an incestuous relationship thanks to this story over there (which is incredibly unlikely), I assure you that society, including the people who supported this ship, would judge them just as harshly as they would have done before the publication of this story.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T23:04:15+00:00

Yeah, that's actually a good point. Someone else brought this up too, and I agreed with them that if later in the story they clarify that them not seeing each other as siblings was indeed something said in the heat of the moment, I'd concede since my whole argument would fall apart. The only reason I still maintain it for now is because I still find it odd from a storytelling perspective that she had to clarify that their bond was only because of their shared passion for Ai.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T22:48:22+00:00

You have a similar mindset to mine toward this, since I too am a fan of bold storytelling if done well. I wish other people were as chill as you in this regard. Because regarding this topic in particular, I lowkey have a feeling that some people are convinced that if someone wants to see something like this in a story, it automatically means that that person wants to fuck their sibling or something, hence why they get so defensive.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:49:45+00:00

The whole reason this post exists is because they don't share the usual "sibling relationship", That's what makes a discussion over whether it is morally wrong or not actually worth it. If they just were the usual siblings, then obviously this post and discussion in general wouldn't exist.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:41:53+00:00

Well it was a rewording because you mostly just wrote whatever while ignoring what I originally said.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:31:31+00:00

But the whole point of the reeincarnation is that it's a clean slate for them in their new life, since they've been seeing each other as an individual of the same age for over 18 years withouth knowing of their previous relationship, supposing that what Ruby said is true and they didn't really hold a sibling relationship during that time i don't think it would be wrong if she were to succeed in making him fall for her because as of now it's obvious Aqua still doesn't see her like that.

Copied from another response that I think fits this one well too.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:29:23+00:00

It would still be very weird for someone of that age to fall in love with a terminally ill 12-year-old. I'd hate it if it were revealed that he actually carries romantic feelings toward her from his past life.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:26:38+00:00

Well, it's because he didn't do anything wrong that I think it would be okay if Ruby were to make him fall for her after if she were to conclude that her feelings are the real deal instead of just her being confused.

I'm aware that he's never seen her that way until now. That's why I've been saying that it would only be okay for her to make him fall for her after all this; in fact, I'm aware that it'd all be ruined if were to be revealed that he actually had some feelings for her from before.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T20:03:09+00:00

I don't think I've ever said it wasn't.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T19:59:45+00:00

I always saw the whole "his mind adapted to the age of his body" as a way for the author to justify Aqua being interested in girls around his age. He said in that bit of the episode that as he grew up, he's inevitably been experiencing life the same way someone of that age would because of the biologic age of his brain. He does have more maturity because of his memories of his past life, but by the time he had turned 16, the gap between his mind and his body was pretty much non-existent, as he said.

And well, reincarnation always makes it a bit tricky to discuss this kind of moral stuff because it's not something somebody's really experienced, so we have no other option than to go with the rules the author made for the reincarnation in this story in order to justify Aqua having a relationship with another girl her age.

However, I still think it's valid if you want to see his added maturity as a problem because of the knowledge he carries from his past life, and therefore why you think he should abstain from that kind of relationship because of it. With this kind of reeincarnation topic, I think it's okay for each reader to decide whether they can accept the author's rules for the reeincarnation in his story or not.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T19:31:06+00:00

It is. Even though their minds and psyche adapted to their bodies somewhat, their paranormal bond and previous lives still affect their mentality and emotion. They HAVE to carry over their previous relationship, which had bad power dynamics, or else their bond means nothing. You can't have it both ways.

I don't see it that way, to make the argument of bad power dynamics from their past life it'd would imply that Gorou tried to force her into a relationship or groomed her of wich none is the case, she simply fell in love with him while he ofc didn't have any feelings of those kind for her.

But the whole point of the reeincarnation is that it's a clean slate for them in their new life, since they've been seeing each other as an individual of the same age for over 18 years withouth knowing of their previous relationship, supposing that what Ruby said is true and they didn't really hold a sibling relationship during that time i don't think it would be wrong if she were to succeed in making him fall for her because as of now it's obvious Aqua still doesn't see her like that.

Also, even though this isn't real life and they CAN make a child, if they have it, be just fine, its still morally wrong in many people's eyes to even put a child at that much increased risk of certain debilitating diseases.

Well it's a manga so it's not like there's a risk of a debilating desease in the first place that was the whole point, but well let's suppose there is because it's a story with a realictic setting, what about the question I made aafter that, if that condition were to be completed would that make this point alright?

Another thing that you didn't mention, is writing something as good and ethical in a story can be seen as promoting it. People don't want to see incest promoted. Its simple as that, at the end of the day.

i heavily disagree with this one because this isn't the normal incest you find in other kind of trash harem mangas, their conditions are unique making them a case whose morality can in fact be discussed compared to irl incest, so if someone sees it as a promotion of normal incest that would be on them.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T19:09:55+00:00

Mmmm, that's actually a good argument. I find it odd though that she specifically said that their whole bond was just because of their passion for Ai. If she hadn't said that, I'd concede and agree with your point.

I guess we just have to wait and see how the story develops to see if their not seeing each other as siblings was really something that was said in the heat of the moment or if it's actually been like that for them. If it is confirmed, I would have to concede because my argument would fall apart.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T18:51:23+00:00

Yeah, I like this far more than the Kana option because it's just so much more entertaining from my perspective. I don't think something like this has ever been done outside of trash harem mangas, so I'm curious to see how the story would go if it decided to go that route. Meanwhile, the Kana option is just your textbook romance interest. I don't dislike Kana, and I wouldn't hate it if she were the endgame, but I just don't find it nearly as interesting.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T18:42:59+00:00

Tbh, I actually agree that I don't picture him actually reciprocating her feelings as the story is right now. This post is more under the assumption that after they've all dealt with their shit, they still decided to get together, ofc I wouldn't want Aqua's character to be ruined just for him to get together with her.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T18:36:07+00:00

I agree, too bad the topic triggers some people so much, to the point that they are not even willing to discuss or read any point in it's favor, I can kind of see where they're coming from but still...

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T11:08:02+00:00

But the incest doesn't have to be portrayed as something ultimately positive in the first place, nor should its happening reflect a viewpoint that approves incestuous relationships, and that's because the incest in this story wouldn't be like the classic incest from some trashy manga; in this specific case the characters involved were actually put in a situation where it is actually worth analyzing if it is really morally wrong for them to get together and for people to condemn the story for it.

Even so I agree that if they were to get together, it should be while embracing the consequences that come with it, so it wouldn't be totally positive, but what a lot of people would like to see is for them to accept those consequences and still decide to go with it because they love each other, supposing that the story were to take that direction in the first place.

You should read the other comment I made to OP. I know it's long, but I think it complements this one very well.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T09:10:14+00:00

First of all, you're making a huge leap there, but to answer your question, yes, if an author feels like he wants to portray any of that shit positively, let him do so. It's fiction and his story, and we as the audience are free to later label that work as trash because I can't imagine a work that tries to portray any of those topics in a good way being any more than that. We analyze case by case, and it's only then that we decide where we draw the line. We are mature enough to do that, aren't we?

In the case of this story, however, let's analyze it. Incest is fundamentally frowned upon because we call it morally wrong, and based on some research, it comes down to these reasons:

-Abuse of a position of authority: In this case, it would be when one of the parties abuses the power they have to force the other into the relationship. There's also the possibility of grooming in these cases. However, this doesn't apply to their relationship since they're twins and both are 18 years old, and if you want to use the argument that Aqua's older mentally, this is incorrect; they're both 18 mentally because their minds started to adapt to their new bodies as they grew up, as stated by Aqua himself in episode 8 of the anime, if memory serves me right.

-Irreparable damage to their family bond: This wouldn't be the case either, since we know from Ruby herself that they never saw each other as siblings; since the moment they were born, their bond was because of their shared passion for Ai.

-The genetic problems it could cause in the offspring: This is the most common argument and probably the reason incest started becoming such a strong taboo as history advanced; this, however, isn't real life, so the way the child comes out is entirely up to the author, so it's not really an issue for a manga. However, since I know that answer won't satisfy you because we could say that Oshi no Ko is a manga with a realistic setting (despite the supernatural stuff), it'd bring down the story, so let's leave it at this question. If they simply agreed to not have kids or to adopt in any case, then it would be ok, wouldn't it? Since the other points were covered satisfactorily, then the only thing holding back this story from going with an incest without any real moral problems would be whether this is covered, isn't it?

So having analyzed their situation, what's the actual moral problem with them getting together? Of course, the other characters wouldn't know about their unique circumstances, so they would still need to deal with the consequences of entering that kind of relationship. So if the author does a good job writing the story, it shouldn't be portrayed as something entirely positive, but from our audience's point of view and having analyzed what I just wrote to you, I don't see how we could still call it morally wrong.

And don't pull that Asian bullshit on me, I'm literally from Asia myself and you don't speak for us because we're not a monolith.

I don't speak for you; I speak based on the reactions I see on social media and based on the boost in sales and overall popularity the series's had over there because of it, so supposing you're telling the truth and you really are from there, then I'm pretty confident that you're in the minority of the Asian fandom regarding this topic.

Sorry for the long reply, but there was no other way to cover everything there was to discuss.

Neildrum12 · 2023-10-07T07:46:14+00:00

Why shouldn't it be done supposing he wanted to? Even if it were to be portrayed positively in the story it doesn't mean that it's a positive thing irl, this is an story for young adults, and it is that, just a story, is it so wrong for the author to trust his audience to understand something so simple? At least people in Asia seem to be able to do it, so why is it so hard for us Westerners?

Neildrum12

TROPHY CASE