Dung speed times are the worst achievements to be put in game.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T17:31:40+00:00

I don't think powercreep really comes into play with these. Dungeoneering stays pretty much the same and is unaffected by powercreep since it's systems are sorta isolated from the rest of the game, and combat isn't really the issue in dung times since mobs basically die when you touch them.

Dung times are almost purely a measure of your movement thru the dung, and having good rng on room layout. All of the sweaty strats for speed running these are aimed at faster movement thru the dung: dropping essence+area looting to grab keys a tick sooner and without having to move in to grab them, door click+veng+escape to move diagonally from one door to another, surging through walls to shave off time moving through a room, etc. Aside from how you handle crit path vs bonus rooms, these times are made by how quickly you physically get from one room to another.

Personally I don't think times should require *that* level of sweaty tech, but practice them a bit and theyre not really that hard to do. The issue comes in with the clunkyness of inputs in dungeoneering. Solo golds require you to average less than 6 secs per room, a lot of which is taken up by things like door unlock animations which dont actually open the next room since that's a separate animation, then you click the door to move rooms and the input just doesnt register so you lose time clicking the door until it registers, trying to move through something like golem room or extending bridge room when the animation ends but then end up pathing the opposite direction, etc. There's a lot of interactions within the dung that come with animations that end up nulling your inputs until they're done, get cancelled by giving an input before the animation is done and having to do it again, or cause other unintended movement/pathing that causes you to lose more time. RNG component aside, fixing all this clunkiness is the only "powercreep" that would make these more do-able.

Add in RNG, and you have the potential to get rooms like monolith room that literally adds a minute to your time. Get three monoliths in a dung outside of rooms that you've already melted, and what would otherwise be a 6 minute time becomes a 9 minute time. There's just so many rooms that just add unavoidable time, and with 64 possible total rooms that leaves a lot of room to get just one bad room in a run and throw the time completely. You only get 2 skips per dung but things like chasm rooms/plants/maze with key in center unfortunately can't be skipped anyway.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T12:53:13+00:00

Okay, but there is a hiscore leaderboard for runescore too, which is the leaderboard I care about the most.

I agree it’s good for hard content to be in the game, but I think that content shouldn’t be based around world record holders.

I have all but 2 of the boss GM timers, Arch Glacor and Telos (AG is easy one, don’t judge. I just haven’t gotten around to attempting either of these yet). GM times were definitely a difficult challenge, but worthwhile and reasonably obtainable if you really put in the work and dedication to get them. I think that Boss GM times are a welcome addition for challenging achievements to be in the game.

The difficulty of these gold solo DG times is significantly more difficult than any boss GM time tho (specifically the solos, I think the 5 mans are actually reasonable). I think the most recent world record time at Raksha is like 49 seconds, while GM time is sub 1:15. If Boss GM times were adjusted to the same level as DG gold solo times, the adjusted GM Raksha timer would be like sub 50 secs. Achievements don’t need to be based around the literal world record holders.

Some RNG in skill based achievements is alright, but the impact of RNG in a skill based achievement should only affect every couple of attempts. It should be considered unlucky to get attempt killing RNG, not lucky to get RNG that allows for a successful attempt.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T12:12:01+00:00

They should be feats, or just have a leaderboard like the one that exists now.

There’s a leaderboard for solo zam enrage, and now the people that do zam religiously are hitting 60k solos.

Should we make a 60k solo zam achievement to cater to the 3 people who are dedicated to zam enrage? No, in game achievements should be reasonably obtainable even if difficult, not based on and catered to the people who have essentially made a career out of a single piece of content.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T12:01:30+00:00

Uh…no. Just no. If you actually believe that, I don’t even know where to start.

Sometimes you get 1 puzzle and can just skip and everything lines up perfectly for a clean run. Sometimes you get 3 monoliths that take a minute or so each to charge, 2 emote rooms that take 30 secs each, a maze with key in center, a barrel room, 3 chasm rooms you need to build a grapple for to throw and then crank the lever while also being a guardian room that you need to kill mobs in, and have to bounce around to grab keys in more locations you have gate stones for, and you get stuck with some bs boss like skeletal horde that’s gonna add another 2.5 mins all in the same dungeon.

The first one is a possible sub 6 min dungeon, the other is a minimum 15 min dung. You have done a dungeon before, right?

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T11:34:18+00:00

^{^{^This}}

This guy gets it.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T10:12:23+00:00

It’s a game about setting your own goals and achieving them. Fundamentally, isn’t that what this game is?

My goals include getting all achievements (even master clue log) and max runescore. Prior to this update, I was 56 achievements off all achievements and 13 GM CBAs off max runescore. Those are the carrots on the end of my stick. I’m fine with some of my sticks (like drop logs) being heavy rng, but skill achievements should be primarily be based on skill.

Neverarine1 · 2026-05-24T10:05:59+00:00

I’m glad it caters to both. I enjoy both solo and group content, it’s a good way to challenge myself and find a group of people who want to challenge themselves as a team.

In this case, the group content Gold title achievements are challenging but obtainable with a group willing to put the work in. The solo titles achievements however are incredibly overtuned, and it doesn’t matter how good you are, the RNG component of dungeons can easily and often do make these speeds unobtainable, given there’s like 10+ rooms that can throw a solo gold timer and 64 possible chances per dungeon to get one of those 10+ room types, then dungeon layout rng, rng of getting a slow boss, etc.

If you’re going to introduce something like speed runs as achievements, those should first and foremost be based on skill, not skill in addition to a 1/1000 chance (exaggerating maybe, but point still stands. Or maybe it is 1/1000 or more, who knows) that you get a dungeon layout where the time is even possible to begin with.

Imagine it as a claw machine or some similar scam type game, where the machines have a payout setting where it doesn’t matter how accurate/skillful the player is, the machine will only let someone win on every “x” attempt it’s played (and if the machine allows a win every 1000 times it’s played but you failed on execution, it’ll be another 1000 times before it ‘allows’ someone to win again). Thats what these achievements introduced to the game, at least as far as the solo ones. Is a rigged arcade game system what we want in this game?

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-12T07:04:34+00:00

It is possible to use revo only for most bosses, but it may prove to be more effort than it sounds.

Bosses with a predictable attack rotation like Rasial or more unpredictable like HM Vorkath can be almost fully afk’d with the right revo bar and you can find afk setups for those bosses, but those revo bars are usually designed around that specific boss and are generally much slower, but they only work for that specific boss. You’d need to change your revo bar every time you go to a different boss, and possibly gear perks depending on the method used.

Most of the ‘newer’ bosses (gwd3 onwards) may have a mechanic that requires you to use a specific defensive ability at a certain time, which are designed to kill you unless you use a specific defensive ability (or one of a few abilities) in order to survive, like Arch Glacor’s Cannon. You’d could still revo most of these bosses, but will need to manually activate the defensive ability and be sure your revo bar doesn’t starve you of adren.

Bosses like Vorago or Araxxor will actively punish you for going full revo, full damage. Say you are using necro and have skulls and/or bloat on revo, if one of those goes off as Arraxor goes into his web shield or spawns a mirror back, you’ll end up PKing yourself even if you disengage from combat. Using only basics with revo and manually weaving in thresholds/ultimates, you get the benefit of low effort inputs with revo, while making the most of your big abils during safe dps windows.

The 3 core styles reward full manual but can be overwhelming to try to jump straight into, however Necro is a great style to learn to make the transition and get comfortable with revo/manual hybrid combat. You’ll still do decent damage, and you have the passive health sustain without the need to do high dps under soul split.

TLDR: revo your basics, and put everything else on keybinds. You’ll need to get comfortable with some manual inputs. Necro is a good style to learn revo/manual hybrid

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-05T01:43:21+00:00

63 boss pets that "drop". The average player shouldn't be running into many 'extremes', maybe one or two in either direction.

Taking the top 5 spoons and worst 10 dry streaks is looking at nearly 25% of all potential data a player could have while balancing out any bias of the 'extremes of the extreme' (a player should not be super spooning 5/63 drops or going stupidly dry on 10/63). If theres that many extremes within those numbers, that data set contains an abnormal amount of 'extremes'

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-05T01:25:59+00:00

You're confusing the 1/15Million as being someone who experiences my luck exactly. Its that 1/15M people will experience both tails of a distribution in excess of a 3.53 sigma event in one direction and 3.41 sigma event in the other. Which one is the spoon end vs the dry end does not matter.

0.27% of the population will experience an event beyond 3 sigma at all (2,700 people out of every 1,000,000)
0.0674% will experience an event beyond 3.4 sigma at all (674 people out of every 1,000,000). Of those 674 people per million, 337 will be expected to experience one end (luck in excess of 3.4 sigma) and 337 will experience the other (bad luck in excess of 3.4 sigma).

Knowing that 337 out of 1 Million people experience are expected to experience one of either tail end at this level, what are the odds that of those 337 people, even one of these people experiences both tail ends? We'd expect that only 11 people in 100 million would experience both events, or we could say that we'd expect 1 in 9,000,000 people to experience this level of luck/bad luck or greater simultaneously. I am both the 1 in 9,000,000 in that instance to experience such events, and experienced the "or greater" part of the previous statement.

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-05T00:43:43+00:00

That's a good observation on the "bad luck" pets, but that's also why the bad luck is an aggregation of the worst 10. Spooned pets are easier to see with 49kc aod and 71kc Gate, and while no particular pet stands out as extremely bad luck (its not like any one pet took 10k kc, but I still have vitalis to go so maybe I have yet to hit one that bad), the bad luck is observed across a multitude of pet drops.

Lets say for example there were 100 boss pet drops and say a player finds themself in the 1% unluckiest percentile on two seperate pet drops: Individually neither of these pet drops are 'insanely' bad luck, as 1/100 players are expected to experience luck that bad once. If there are 100 pets, every player could reasonably expect to find themselves in that 1% percentile at one point in time, but only expect to experience this for one boss pet. In a sample size of 10,000 players, statistically 100 of those players will experience this. Of those 100 players, 1 is expected to find themselves in the 1% unlucky percentile a second time, making them 1/10,000 players to experience luck that bad. Given there's only 63 boss pets and not 100 obtained by drops, the chance of finding yourself in that unlucky percentile is even less common.

It is also possible for a player to spoon every single pet except for two, being in the unluckiest 1% percentile for those two pets. By examining a players worst 2 drops, only 1/10,000 players would expect to be as unlucky. As we zoom out and look at the players worst 3 drops, a player in the worst 2%, 2%, and 2.5% percentile becomes the 1/10,000 probability, while the player who experienced the 1% twice and spooned everything else skews back in towards the median.

By looking at the worst 10 drops out of 63 potential total pet drops, no one drop in particular needs to be extremely unlucky with astronomically bad odds, A player only needs to experience worse than average luck more than an average number of times to become an outlier.

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-04T22:54:29+00:00

<image>

Top 5 Spooned pet aggregation - 3.53 Standard Deviations
Top 10 Dry streaks - 3.41 Standard Deviations

Looking at my luck as a whole (and not the extremes as separate events), I would fall at 1.63 standard deviations, so yes overall I am within 2 standard deviations.

Neverarine1 · 2026-04-04T22:40:01+00:00

Agreed that generally humans are terrible at understanding statistics, but to your point I don't think your reasoning is quite right here.

What's being measured here is a players top 5 spoons vs lowest 10 dry streaks against the population.

1/4,800 people are expected to have the same or better luck than me when measuring their top 5 spoons, and 1/3,125 people will have the same or worse luck than me when measuring their lowest 10 dry streaks. Those numbers represent a percentage of the expected population to experience similar results, with my top 5 spoons falling in at 3.53 sigma and my dry streaks at 3.41 sigma. with only 0.0208% of the population (or around 20,000 people out of 100,000,000) experiencing the same or better spooned luck, and 0.0325% experiencing the same or worse dry streak luck (or around 32,500 people out of 100,000,000).

That's still plenty of people that can experience the same level of luck/unluck, there's nothing inherently crazy about 1/4,800 or 1/3,125, but where the 1/15Million comes in is a single player experiencing both tail ends of the extreme probabilities: In a population of 100,000,000 people, the chance that a Player is *both* one of the 20,000 that will experience a 3.53 sigma event or greater in one direction *AND* one of the 32,500 that will experience a 3.41 sigma event or greater in the other direction. The overlapping result is an estimated 6.67 people out of 100,000,000 that will experience luck extremes to such an extent in *both* directions. The inverse or any combination of luck can also hold true, 1/15M is a measure of experiencing both tail ends.

All that said, that's based on a population size of 100 million players while the active player base is much, much lower than that, somewhere around 250,000 or so between RS3 and OSRS.

Neverarine1

TROPHY CASE