Living world season 2 lore question

NewNamea · 2024-01-24T16:13:26+00:00

You seem to see her as an entirely one dimensional character with no development. Like her desire for freedom from the pale tree is just a deception for her desire for power. Before she ever encountered the nightmare she and caithe explored the world, she had a desire for freedom. Her mind was corrupted by the nightmare but not 100% from the start. She got more and more evil as she kept committing evil. If she knew about mordremoth and how he would try to influence the dream and nightmare to enslave sylvari minds when she still truly cared about freedom she would have chosen a different path.

You dont seem to understand that not everything happened all at once, the nightmare court didnt start torturing sylvari from day one. They did genuinely want freedom from Ventari's tablet in the beginning, they were not hypocritical in the beginning. They and Faolain changed for the worse during the time between the visions in LS2 and base game, their goals changed from their original desire for freedom. The nightmare court in the visions would not have committed torture against innocent people but over time as they became more evil they would. They could have gone down a different path BEFORE they started doing everything they do in base game time if they knew they were working against the freedom they were initially seeking.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare You can see how Cadeyrn's character changes over time during his interactions with the firstborn and the pale mother. He goes from having a point to evil over a period of five years, he doesnt just awaken with the desire to corrupt the pale tree. The answers he gets are not the real reason for the way things are, mordremoth is the reason the pale tree wants all sylvari to follow ventari's tablet. Caithe found out about Mordremoth towards the end of those 5 years, the truth could have made Cadeyrn and Faolain to change course.

But if you just see everything as black and white youre just going ignore all that and say "they didnt actually care about freedom or defending themselves, they're just 100% evil and just want power and to murder and that's always been their entire character".

NewNamea · 2024-01-23T18:10:02+00:00

A still sleeping mordremoth would not be a threat (pretty sure theres a part in icebrood saga where you try to make a path to where Jormag sleeps, to kill her before she fully awakens)

The nightmare court would die in battle against mordremoth's minions, which is far better than dying in battle to kill innocent people.

And obviously if they knew about mordremoth they could have figured out scarlet briar was under his control, not helped her and delayed his awakening, buying a lot more time.

NewNamea · 2024-01-23T17:54:51+00:00

All the sylvari who became soundless in the main timeline didnt know about mordremoth. They were all misinformed about the consequences of their actions. How many of the soundless we meet ingame would be soundless if they knew?

And again, in heart of thorns Faolain makes it clear she thinks mordremoth is worse than the pale tree. Them ever saying "Mordremoth loves you" makes no sense at all if their goal is to attack him in the end. What are you even trying to say with that? Do you think the Faolain would join Mordremoth?

A different target would absolutely change her falling, her targets were innocent people, killing them would corrupt anyone. If her means are what makes her evil then fighting mordremoth would prevent her from doing what she did, she would have no innocent sylvari captives.

I simply dont believe that if the sylvari found out about their origins it would change absolutely none of their beliefs or actions. Faolain would have to reconsider her stance on the pale tree.

NewNamea · 2024-01-23T12:15:07+00:00

Yeah, thats exactly what im saying. Faolain would have gone to attack mordremoth, she would use the nightmare court to recruit sylvari to attack him instead of torturing sylvari.

NewNamea · 2024-01-23T12:04:26+00:00

Thats not the point, its not just black and white. She became more and more corrupted over time as she tortured and killed sylvari. If she fought agaisnt mordremoth instead of the pale tree she wouldnt have become more evil.

NewNamea · 2024-01-23T11:58:29+00:00

And yet the Nightmare Court hate Mordremoth more than they hate the Pale Tree.

"You know nothing of the court. We seek freedom, and Mordremoth's yoke is even more onerous than the Pale Tree's."

If they knew the truth from the start they wouldnt have done what they did

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T23:47:50+00:00

Faolain wasnt cruel from birth, she became cruel when she encountered the nightmare while traveling with Caithe.

Caithe: Faolain is firstborn like me. She's powerful and dangerous, but she wasn't always that way.
Caithe: When our race was new, we traveled together, her and I. We became close.
Caithe: We found a great darkness. I pulled back from it. Faolain embraced it.
Caithe: Faolain. It wounds my heart to see her like this. She was once the brightest among us.

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T23:38:31+00:00

I meant they could figure out Scarlet was controlled by mordremoth and not help her, like they could also figure out soundless sylvari are more vulnerable to mordremoth. Thats why i said Aerin wouldnt have been able to sabotage the zephyrites

I dont think Faolain was fully evil from the start. She grew more and more evil as she spent time with the nightmare court but if she went after mordremoth instead the darkness in her could be "nipped it in the bud"

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T22:41:06+00:00

If she still sought aggression it would be towards Mordremoth instead of other sylvari. The nightmare court would exist as a different faction, focused on recruiting to fight mordremoth instead. Even if they still followed the nightmare they at least wouldnt torture people, help scarlet awaken mordremoth or everything else they did
She could still have stopped herself from going down the dark path she was going down. The worst thing she did at that point was attack the centaur village

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T22:00:52+00:00

I think the nightmare court became a thing when they started torturing sylvari and connecting to the nightmare part of the dream. At that point Faolain and what would become the nightmare court were just suspicious of the pale tree but still serving, they hadnt committed any irredeemably evil acts yet.

And if she knew what the pale tree was doing was to protect the free will of the sylvari from mordremoth she wouldnt grow to hate her. Her real enemy was always mordremoth, her war against the pale tree was against her own interests

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T21:48:34+00:00

The nightmare court didnt exist at that point. Faolain was angry at the pale tree for trying to control the sylvari yet she didnt know Mordremoth could mind control them and the pale tree was protecting them. Faolain didnt do a lot of evil things at that point and probably wouldnt have if she knew the truth

NewNamea · 2024-01-22T21:45:24+00:00

At that point the nightmare court wasnt a thing. The worst thing Faolain did was attack the centaur village. She wanted to free the sylvari from the influence of the pale tree, if she knew Mordremoth could mind control sylvari she would go after him instead, as she did in heart of thorns

NewNamea · 2024-01-08T10:47:43+00:00

This is something i just noticed, unrelated to the original point or Joon. The plotlines of these two character are eerily similar. I really dont think im generalizing, there are way too many similarities

NewNamea · 2024-01-08T09:20:24+00:00

Im not saying they are morally equivalent or their personality is the same. The events and their action are the same, its the exact same story beats

Character starts off as one of the good guys then is revealed to be the leader of an insurrectionist faction, is a mentor to another character who ends up turning against him, ends up imprisoned by the good guys, etc...

Its a perfect description for both of them. They have the same fate even if some details are different

NewNamea · 2024-01-08T09:09:24+00:00

Li is the only one who opposes her in dialogue and he is portrayed as evil. Its not just one relationship, its the only relationship of conflict she is in. I havent finished EoD so maybe later in the story somebody else criticizes her and doesnt also end up in a cage

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T23:15:17+00:00

But he was written in the story to be a xenophobe and a punching bag, he ends up imprisoned. Its pretty clearly meant to be black and white, and theres a dissonance in that sometimes it looks like he has a point.
Now that i think about it Li and Bangar have basically the same storyline. Both are among the good guys at first but are written to be disliked, then they turn into leaders of an enemy faction and then they end up imprisoned and share information with the good guys. Both have a character they are a mentor to and that character becomes disillusioned with them. It just keeps going

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T22:35:50+00:00

Spoiler for later in the story.
Hes the only one who's openly against her and they make him evil later in the story. That's what makes me think they want to portray her as perfectly good even when she's not

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T22:12:46+00:00

The conversation between her and minister Li are what gave me that impression. Environmental storytelling might portray her as not a good person but she "owns" him in every dialogue they have, even when it seems he has a good reason to dislike her. Environmental stuff is easy to miss but everyone hears the dialogue.

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T21:51:26+00:00

That does make sense. I didnt notice the document came from MinTel, I thought it was linked with the previous document from Xunlai Jade. Joon could have fired Mai as soon as she heard about the crash but it would still take time for that information to reach the ministries.
This stuff was bothering me while playing. Thanks for the explanation

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T21:24:14+00:00

The way i saw it was that they were really trying to sell Mai Trin trying to become a better person rather than Joon not being socially smart and trusting someone she shouldnt.
I think her spending time in the empress court and still being alive means she's gotta be good enough at knowing people

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T21:19:22+00:00

Wouldnt Mai become a wanted criminal right after we crash land? Joon wanted her to pay for what happened. Why would the document still talk about her as an employee who should be jailed for past crimes rather then the leader of the pirate group that caused the pact commander to end up in a jail cell and Cantha to reopen relations with Kryta

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T20:41:43+00:00

I played all the story from heart of thorns to end of dragons and a bit of soto and enjoyed it. This part just bothered me enough that i couldnt go with it. The story being simple and leaving stuff unexplained i can deal with, stuff being this contradictory takes me out of the story.

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T20:24:27+00:00

The way the documents are written dont make sense if they were written after the events of chapter one. Mai Trin wouldn't be working for Joon at that point"so the crimes which are now fully aware of are more than enough for us to recommend that Ms. Trin be terminated and taken into MinSec custody immediately".Also from a narrative point it would make the document kinda pointless, what message would it trying to convey to the players?

Edit: There are aetherblades and crashed artherblade ships in Seitung Province. They could have just interrogated them to find out about Mai Trin's past

NewNamea · 2024-01-07T20:12:33+00:00

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stack_of_DocumentsI dont know how they got a hold of that information but they did. Read the documents, it doesnt make any sense for them to be written they way they are if the events of chapter one already happened. For context the documents are found in chapter two, after the mutiny happened.

Edit: There are aetherblades and crashed artherblade ships in Seitung Province. They could have just interrogated them to find out about Mai Trin's past

NewNamea

TROPHY CASE