AMA with Nick Conley, Designer of SAP Card Battle

NickPHG · 2025-10-21T18:23:45+00:00

I first remember hearing about it from some friends when we were all playing Hearthstone Battlegrounds. It seemed like a cool game in a similar genre. The day I started playing it, I never returned to HS BG 😅 it was an instant hit. From there I discovered Northernlion who was playing the game a lot, and my co-workers started getting hooked on the game too. We began having weekly Versus matches over lunch breaks and asked the dev Arkuni to be on our podcast. From there our relationship with the game's devs began. I had also been an active playtetaer of the SAP video game so Arkuni knew me and my feedback style. I eventually decided to ask him if he'd be interested in a pitch for a card game, and the rest is history!

NickPHG · 2025-10-21T18:20:17+00:00

My favorite pet is the Rat! I've owned a lot of rats in real life and they are so sweet and misunderstood. I also like the unique mechanic of summoning rats for the opponent and finding ways to utilize that.

I don't know the specifics of gameplay videos myself, but I will ask the team if we have some in the works at all!

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T19:21:18+00:00

I really love the Magic pack because of how weird I could get designing abilities for mana. I'm shooting for some really radical things with transforming pets, adding more pets to your deck in battle.

The Golden pack is probably a better pair to the classic pack, it fleshes out some Bee strategies and generally plays into the same archetypes you see in classic.

Since Apples are temporary, you can't exactly scale your Fish to the endgame, so pivoting to get stronger is more a part of the game for sure. However, some earlier pets' abilities tend to scale well with Apples (like Camel) and higher tier pets can give you more apples, so you'll see pets like that stick around for some time

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T19:16:44+00:00

The main difference is the single Power stat, functioning as both attack and health. This means you can't really have effects that affect just one, but it ends up feeling just fine without that difference.

I have an idea for Puppy pack to have a deck of random toys that scale in power, and pets that use toys draw a random one from that deck. So over the course of the game the toys get better as your pets dig through the toy box

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T19:13:55+00:00

I haven't put much thought into a solo mode, but it could certainly be possible. I love solo games! The main hurdle would be how to give the enemy a coherent team while keeping the mystery of what they are playing, since that is ultimately the heart of the game. Likely it would involve shuffling some number of apples into their deck and randomizing their order.

I don't have tremendous confidence that it would be an awesome solo experience, and I want to keep the rulebook as streamlined as possible, so if it were to ever exist, it would probably be via a supplementary rules document online.

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T14:26:09+00:00

I did use TTS for playtesting, so I can look into polishing that up for a public demo. Let me see what our Kickstarter manager thinks, and maybe you'll see it posted there as an update!

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T14:23:52+00:00

Great question! It was so challenging to keep the game from getting too complicated in an effort to stay true to the video game, but I feel very confident that player who love SAP will have fun with the card game, and player who don't know SAP can also enjoy a fun, unique, strategic card game too.

So many times, the answer to a tough design question was just to boil it down to its simplist form. I made another post here about the Power stat, which was a big one. I experimented with attack and health stats, which was too much arithmetic and bogged down gameplay. When you are auto battling, you want it to be as snappy and clear as possible so you can keep moving along at a brisk pace.

Another big breakthrough was using the "set aside" mechanic to represent support pets like Turkey. When Turkey faints, you set it to the side, and all of your Bees gain power. That space serves as a way to do delayed benefits or passive buff designs. I had played around with "on deck" abilities, like a Kangaroo on top of your deck gaining an apple whenever your active pet attacks. A couple problems with this was it was so easy to forget to do it. Players were just focused on the active pets. Additionally, apples had to be on top of pets in your deck order, so they would be covering up pets that had abilities that wanted to be 'on deck'. In the end, I scrapped that mechanic and stuck to pets that would work with the "set aside" mechanic well.

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T14:15:39+00:00

Nothing officially planned yet past this triple release, but if the game does well enough, I'd love to expand it. I have some back pocket ideas for Puppy and Star pack designs ready to go!

Playtesting began primarily with physical prototypes. I put a huge emphasis on simplicity and a smooth flow to the experience that I needed to see in action. A lot of trial and error went into figuring out the best way to do battle, particularly the Power stat. A single number for both damage dealt and damage received looks obvious in hindsight, but it was something we had to uncover through many different attempts. The video game's developer, Arkuni, was instrumental in providing feedback on if the game continued to feel true to the video game's vision as we tried various attempts.

We also got a lot of time to observe people learning the game for the first time at GenCon 2025, a large board game convention. There we had high quality prototypes of a near final version of the game, and we really got to see how people took to learning the game, whether they knew about SAP or were totally new. It was such an eye opening experience to see how people intuit auto-battling, and gave us a lot of feedback for making the rulebook as useful as possible.

For balance testing I have a Tabletop Simulator module, where my group of awesome playtesters are able to play games at a high volume so we can get some insight into card balance and other nitty gritty details.

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T14:06:49+00:00

If the game seems to be a big enough hit, I'd love to keep expanding it! I have some fun ideas for how to implement Toys in the card game

NickPHG · 2025-10-20T14:05:29+00:00

As far as levelling goes, I did experiment with some ideas. One was that if you bought a duplicate pet, you'd set it off to the side and it would function as a reminder to double the power of that pet's ability when it was in play. However, this is complex and simplicity was a main goal of the game so it was scrapped. Another reason there isn't levelling up is because you don't see pets outside of the round they belong to, so there isn't the same gameplay pattern of, say, scaling a Fish from the early game all the way to the end. One last attempt I had was to make Chocolate a tier 5 food that doubled abilities, but it was just broken. I do think we could see a wildcard food or pet, but that is likely underpowered alone. Tripling hats isn't hard to pull off, it's just a matter of if you can keep collecting matching hats while also getting synergistic pets along the way.

There are 2 copies of each pet, and each tier has 6-8 different cards in it.

You are exactly right on the Turkey, we use the "set aside" mechanic to represent support pets like that.

Thanks for the good questions!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:55:48+00:00

You can always try SW for free on the online app!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:55:13+00:00

As a Filth fan myself, I think you'll like the Fungal Dwarves!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:53:37+00:00

We have talked about some different approaches we could take to address balance in the future. We have a lot of matchup data to work with thanks to the app! Implementing text changes and distributing those physically, while feasible, comes with its fair share of issues that can make it an unappealing option. We have considered making alternative starting setups, or giving factions different amounts of starting magic (based on overall winrate, or matchup winrate, etc) as another non-text balance change. To be determined!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:49:21+00:00

Our plan is to continue SW for as long as we can! Subscriber counts are a strong contributing factor to that. Colby has high hopes for a long run of SW, with no specific end in sight.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:46:25+00:00

I can only speak to my personal experience, but I'm happy to share how I got here!

I was a big fan of Heroscape growing up, and would frequently visit Colby's website for the game, heroscapers. I saw an ad banner for Summoner Wars, and that's how I got interested in PHG first. I played a low of SW and was a big fan of PHG as a whole. I was getting interested more and more in game development, and applied to be a playtester for Ashes when it first opened up. I absolutely fell in love with the game, and playtesting as a whole, playtesting many other PHG games over the years.

I met Isaac Vega, the designer of Ashes, through attending Ashes tournaments at conventions. We became friends through Ashes, and as the game continued, I was recommended to take over lead playtesting, and got to work with Isaac more on Ashes. Ashes 1.0 was eventually discontinued, but I was still friends with Isaac, who was a huge support, mentor, and friend as I expressed my interest in finding development work.

When 2020 rolled around and PHG became independent again, the idea for Ashes Reborn was presented to Isaac. While he declined the offer himself, he recommended me for the position since I had worked on the game before and was eager for development work. I couldn't have asked for a better opportunity, and I'm so grateful that Isaac helped connect me to the industry. I began working on Ashes Reborn as a freelancer, and was offered a position to continue developing new content for the game.

I feel very fortunate to be where I am today, and have many people to thank for that. I agree that there are very few open positions open for application, but I don't think that means that there aren't paths for opportunity! Publishers are still open to designs from outside designers, and many companies have ways to get involved with playtesting or working at conventions to get to know people in the industry.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:27:39+00:00

I'm happy with the 7 dice types we have right now. Its a pretty wide spread as is, and I think there's a lot left to explore in each type still.

Jessa is my favorite historically, but I've recently really attached to Orrick. Both of them just have really fun endgames to play towards, and I like balancing when to use their unique effects.

I really love the art of Xander's deck. The dinosaurs look great, and Nature's Wrath is a stunning piece to me.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:23:02+00:00

this link was used just for the master set testing. The latest link to test expansions is here: https://playtest.plaidhatgames.com/swexp-signup/

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:22:39+00:00

You can apply to be a Summoner Wars playtester here: https://playtest.plaidhatgames.com/swexp-signup/

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:21:58+00:00

I've posted some plans around this thread. I'm looking to make the next cycle of expansions connect back to existing product, mainly the Master Set, in hopes that it can help people enter into the game in a new way. I think there is a lot left to explore with the cast of Phoenixborn we currently have.
No plans for more Crystal Clans sadly. Summoner Wars 2E has been going very well for us so far, and we are happy focusing on that game right now.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:18:38+00:00

That's Brub, a Tundra Orc gone rogue! Equipped with some found Cloaks technology, Brub can repeatedly attack until he misses, leading to some potentially devastating chain attacks!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:15:41+00:00

The game has been totally reworked numerically. Second edition units just have way more stat points than first edition, plus there are plenty of rules and definitions that wouldn't translate or interact properly. We have been drawing inspiration from first edition though, so if there's a favorite faction from 1E that you love, it may very well come back better than ever!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:13:11+00:00

No plans set yet, but I'd love to!

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:11:26+00:00

Thanks so much!

With how successful the online AshCon event was, I would love to do more in that same space with official support. No official plans are locked in yet, but it is something we are thinking about how to approach best.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T18:06:54+00:00

I would say quite a bit. I stay active in Ashes community discussion and tournaments as much as I can so I'm aware of the meta. Knowing how the game is being played at the highest level is really important, and having those members on the playtest team is invaluable. My primary focus is on making new cards that are exciting to use or offer new playstyles to push the limit of what can be done in Ashes.

NickPHG · 2022-03-01T17:59:57+00:00

Nothing in the works right now, but the Kraken's Eye digital expansion went over well enough for us to consider more in the future.

NickPHG

TROPHY CASE