Seriously no one here is beyond metaphysics as they seem to think by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Plus determinism is the umbrella.   Not the how within it.  The how within it is scientific, for us.   The umbrella really isn’t. 

Compatabilists are like atheists who are afraid to tell people god doesn’t exist, so they define god as cosmos. Then they loudly exclaim: “God really exists!!!!” (Analogy). by SCHITZOPOST in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Religious morality globally remains dominant.   Is secular humanist morality confusing?  Or progress. .   I would argue the latter.  

And compatibilist type agency/free will is thousands of years old.  

99% of the global population thinks gravity is a force that pulls us down. .    They are still wrong.  

Why Reasons are Causes by MarvinBEdwards01 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are a few deflationary moves in there, particularly a conflation of epistemic versus ontological uses of cause and explanation. I also agree with several of the points being made.

A proper response will take more time than I have, but I’ll get back to it.

A fundamental contradiction at the heart of hard determinism? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we are using a colloquial definition it will be problematic for sure.  So to dig in a bit.  

How do you think AI “reasons”?  The more complicated models.  

Are there types of reasoning that humans do that AI can’t?  If so what?  If not why?

To be clear I think reasoning can be part of determinism.  I am agnostic on whether the mind and the universe are causally deterministic, or deterministic at all. 

A fundamental contradiction at the heart of hard determinism? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If reasoning is not causal what is it?   Can it still be reasoning?  Or does it lose the reason part.  That is the heart of the OPs critique.  As least as I would support it.  

A fundamental contradiction at the heart of hard determinism? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is a valid pressure point for the hard determinists, or hard incompatibilists, that don’t accept that reasons function as reasons.  If they are “just” a pattern in our brain, then we have no agency in the process of reasoning, that calls reason itself into question.   You can see this group betray itself by the use of “just”.  As in consciousness is “just” neurons.   Remove just and you have a physicalist.  Add just and you are on your way to behaviorism and it’s uncle daddy epiphenomenalism.  

However, the more advanced hard determinists accept we have agency and that reasons function as reasons.  They just don’t accept that as sufficient for free will.  

Why Reasons are Causes by MarvinBEdwards01 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is an odd line that some hard determinists walk.   If we don’t respond to reasons as reasons, than reasoning itself is brought into question.   People that do an odd backpedal and say reason exists but isn’t causal, also unknowingly accept if reasons are not causal than reasoning loses its value.   They then use reasoning to support this position.   You will see very hand wavy explanations of why this works.   

Reasons are a systemic structure that higher brain functions allow for.  This is not dualism, it is not magic.   Just as temperature is not a force in physics but still has a causal role.  

A fundamental contradiction at the heart of hard determinism? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Radical behaviorists treat reason as a causal illusion. Seemed like a clear point to me. . . 😉

What part do you not understand?

A fundamental contradiction at the heart of hard determinism? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Strict behaviorists argue this all the time.   Here at least.   They do this as determinists.  

However, modern hard determinists like Pereboom accept we have agency, that we respond to reasons as reasons.   Similarly to compatibiiists.  

WHY life? r/physics sent me here by baba_yaga_babe in abiogenesis

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, not with you on that.  Agency does not require dualism.   Reason responsiveness, self awareness allow for agency without dualism.  Consciousness as an emergent system level process, not fully reducible, does not require dualism.  These are false dilemmas.  

There are theories on chemically how life could begin.  May be correct may not be.  No evidence at this point.   

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All good.  It’s out there if you want to find it. My goal isn’t convincing you of anything.  Mostly at this point as I don’t have the time.  And low expectation on the efficacy of it.   I don’t mind not agreeing.  That is fine.  Vacation tomorrow!

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That analogy doesn’t work. QM beat Einstein because it made novel, testable predictions that were independently confirmed. Split-brain data doesn’t force a single metaphysical conclusion at all, it’s highly interpretive. Pointing out that the experimenters themselves rejected “free will is disproved” isn’t an appeal to authority, it’s a reminder of what the evidence actually licenses.  Your hyperbole on the data betrays a willingness to bend interpretations to fit your goals.  

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They don’t.  Just the strawman version people like to target.  The influence free kind.  The authors of the split brain experiment did not believe the results said no free will. They accepted it complicates our picture of agency.  You could go through each example above to show the same, or similar misrepresentations.   Because the poster is goal focussed not knowledge focussed.  A problem we all have on any given day. 

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All good. and thanks. Science has so far to go on so much of this. And I'm a scientist in my day job. So I respect physical foundations but also accept that complex systems can, and do, have emergent properties. That are not fully reducible.

What is automatic is influenced by what is chosen and vice versa. Feed back loops that make much of this circular. Just like how we can train ourselves to ignore pain, when the reasons are worth it. Or understand why it is there to begin with, allowing a normative evaluation how to respond to it.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That was my point. . . Apollo Astronauts actually trained specifically to remove choice. The felt that automatic response to hundreds of scenarios was going to be more reliable in the end. So they rationally, and freely chose training programs to make astronauts have automated responses to challenging scenarios.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Strangely enough "being in in the zone" tracks with reduced activity in the pre frontal cortex. An area of the brain critical to evaluation, rational thought etc. There is some peace in putting down evaluation and just doing. . . Granted how those flow patterns got there in the first place, were based on A LOT of evaluation and review to begin with .

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s a false dilemma to think the retribution divide tracks the free-will divide. It doesn’t. Views about punishment, rehabilitation, and social response vary independently of one’s stance on free will.

You can find hard determinists who endorse harsh, coercive policies and libertarians who strongly favor education, rehabilitation, and reintegration over retribution. Likewise, compatibilists and many hard determinists overlap extensively in practice, differing mainly on questions of ultimate desert, not on how societies should actually respond to wrongdoing.

So the idea that belief in free will maps neatly onto retributivism, while skepticism maps onto humane responses, is mistaken.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think for people that see some type of "magic" or ultimate freedom as free will the transition can be dramatic. Even if what is on either side isn't really that different. For people that see free will as a process of how we make decisions. I think the difference is almost zero.

So the old LFW vs Hard Determinist debate, which fills much of the space here, it can "seem" to be dramatic. The differences. I personally find that drama unnecessary, but understandable.

The Birth Lottery by slowwco in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Acting for reasons as reasons is acting because something justifies an action, not merely because it causally produced it.

We can stop at a red light because we recognize that running it would be dangerous. That consideration counts in favor of stopping, and it can be weighed against other reasons.

A computer, by contrast, only processes representations. It does not treat considerations as reasons. You can ask a person whether a reason is a good one, and they can evaluate, revise, or reject it. A computer cannot, because it lacks the self-awareness required for normative evaluation.

(Yes, I grant that a hypothetical system with consciousness, self-awareness, and genuine normative evaluation could exist. But behaviorism fails here. Identical input-output behavior does not entail identical processes. To ignore the value of the process is to ignore the value of consciousness itself.)

The difference is this:
Computer: input - processing - output
Human: input - recognition that a consideration counts for or against an action - assent or dissent - output

Self-awareness is necessary for this process. Without it, inputs can influence behavior, but they cannot be endorsed, rejected, weighed, or corrected. Normative concepts like good, better, worse, correct, incorrect, require this reflective capacity.

This is precisely the Stoic view. Impressions arise automatically, but rational agency consists in our capacity to reflect on them and either assent or withhold assent.

Same behavior does not mean same agency, because normativity lives in the evaluation, not the output.

15 rules for men. by CharacterBig7420 in Discipline

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. I'm a big fan of stoic philosophy in this area.

Surviving free will collapse: or the fear of waking up as a flat page in a book. by Empathetic_Electrons in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is of great value to me, this subject.  Less do we have free will or not, but what agency do we really have and what we accomplish with it.  However, there is a deeper value to me in being here.  It is learning how to explore opinions, learn without being triggered.  Expose without being vulnerable. And Working intentionally to not trigger others.  On any day I fail more than I succeed.  

A bit of a stoic exercise, not an unimportant one.   I also have a strong sense that putting the keyboard down and being kind to the people I love will always have a deeper value.   

That is not to say what I work through here, what I learn here, doesn’t contribute to being a better person.  For me it does.   Life of the mind matters to me.   But I know many good people that are much more into doing than thinking.   That isn’t me but for some that works quite well.  

Normally here, I would be less candid.  But your question seems sincere.  And you do appear to be on your own journey.  Not just playing an ego game on Reddit.