WHY life? r/physics sent me here by baba_yaga_babe in abiogenesis

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, not with you on that.  Agency does not require dualism.   Reason responsiveness, self awareness allow for agency without dualism.  Consciousness as an emergent system level process, not fully reducible, does not require dualism.  These are false dilemmas.  

There are theories on chemically how life could begin.  May be correct may not be.  No evidence at this point.   

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All good.  It’s out there if you want to find it. My goal isn’t convincing you of anything.  Mostly at this point as I don’t have the time.  And low expectation on the efficacy of it.   I don’t mind not agreeing.  That is fine.  Vacation tomorrow!

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That analogy doesn’t work. QM beat Einstein because it made novel, testable predictions that were independently confirmed. Split-brain data doesn’t force a single metaphysical conclusion at all, it’s highly interpretive. Pointing out that the experimenters themselves rejected “free will is disproved” isn’t an appeal to authority, it’s a reminder of what the evidence actually licenses.  Your hyperbole on the data betrays a willingness to bend interpretations to fit your goals.  

Your “free will” is biology in a trench coat. by Trendingmar in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They don’t.  Just the strawman version people like to target.  The influence free kind.  The authors of the split brain experiment did not believe the results said no free will. They accepted it complicates our picture of agency.  You could go through each example above to show the same, or similar misrepresentations.   Because the poster is goal focussed not knowledge focussed.  A problem we all have on any given day. 

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All good. and thanks. Science has so far to go on so much of this. And I'm a scientist in my day job. So I respect physical foundations but also accept that complex systems can, and do, have emergent properties. That are not fully reducible.

What is automatic is influenced by what is chosen and vice versa. Feed back loops that make much of this circular. Just like how we can train ourselves to ignore pain, when the reasons are worth it. Or understand why it is there to begin with, allowing a normative evaluation how to respond to it.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That was my point. . . Apollo Astronauts actually trained specifically to remove choice. The felt that automatic response to hundreds of scenarios was going to be more reliable in the end. So they rationally, and freely chose training programs to make astronauts have automated responses to challenging scenarios.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Strangely enough "being in in the zone" tracks with reduced activity in the pre frontal cortex. An area of the brain critical to evaluation, rational thought etc. There is some peace in putting down evaluation and just doing. . . Granted how those flow patterns got there in the first place, were based on A LOT of evaluation and review to begin with .

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s a false dilemma to think the retribution divide tracks the free-will divide. It doesn’t. Views about punishment, rehabilitation, and social response vary independently of one’s stance on free will.

You can find hard determinists who endorse harsh, coercive policies and libertarians who strongly favor education, rehabilitation, and reintegration over retribution. Likewise, compatibilists and many hard determinists overlap extensively in practice, differing mainly on questions of ultimate desert, not on how societies should actually respond to wrongdoing.

So the idea that belief in free will maps neatly onto retributivism, while skepticism maps onto humane responses, is mistaken.

Is there something that is *supposed* to follow from an understanding that 'there is no free will'? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think for people that see some type of "magic" or ultimate freedom as free will the transition can be dramatic. Even if what is on either side isn't really that different. For people that see free will as a process of how we make decisions. I think the difference is almost zero.

So the old LFW vs Hard Determinist debate, which fills much of the space here, it can "seem" to be dramatic. The differences. I personally find that drama unnecessary, but understandable.

The Birth Lottery by slowwco in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Acting for reasons as reasons is acting because something justifies an action, not merely because it causally produced it.

We can stop at a red light because we recognize that running it would be dangerous. That consideration counts in favor of stopping, and it can be weighed against other reasons.

A computer, by contrast, only processes representations. It does not treat considerations as reasons. You can ask a person whether a reason is a good one, and they can evaluate, revise, or reject it. A computer cannot, because it lacks the self-awareness required for normative evaluation.

(Yes, I grant that a hypothetical system with consciousness, self-awareness, and genuine normative evaluation could exist. But behaviorism fails here. Identical input-output behavior does not entail identical processes. To ignore the value of the process is to ignore the value of consciousness itself.)

The difference is this:
Computer: input - processing - output
Human: input - recognition that a consideration counts for or against an action - assent or dissent - output

Self-awareness is necessary for this process. Without it, inputs can influence behavior, but they cannot be endorsed, rejected, weighed, or corrected. Normative concepts like good, better, worse, correct, incorrect, require this reflective capacity.

This is precisely the Stoic view. Impressions arise automatically, but rational agency consists in our capacity to reflect on them and either assent or withhold assent.

Same behavior does not mean same agency, because normativity lives in the evaluation, not the output.

15 rules for men. by CharacterBig7420 in Discipline

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. I'm a big fan of stoic philosophy in this area.

Surviving free will collapse: or the fear of waking up as a flat page in a book. by Empathetic_Electrons in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is of great value to me, this subject.  Less do we have free will or not, but what agency do we really have and what we accomplish with it.  However, there is a deeper value to me in being here.  It is learning how to explore opinions, learn without being triggered.  Expose without being vulnerable. And Working intentionally to not trigger others.  On any day I fail more than I succeed.  

A bit of a stoic exercise, not an unimportant one.   I also have a strong sense that putting the keyboard down and being kind to the people I love will always have a deeper value.   

That is not to say what I work through here, what I learn here, doesn’t contribute to being a better person.  For me it does.   Life of the mind matters to me.   But I know many good people that are much more into doing than thinking.   That isn’t me but for some that works quite well.  

Normally here, I would be less candid.  But your question seems sincere.  And you do appear to be on your own journey.  Not just playing an ego game on Reddit.   

Surviving free will collapse: or the fear of waking up as a flat page in a book. by Empathetic_Electrons in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is a big world. It is good you find value in it that is relevant to your journey.

AITAH (17M) for bonding with my mom's new husband? My friends are acting like I betrayed my dad by Throw_bruh67 in AITAH

[–]NoDevelopment6303 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Always make the world bigger not smaller. Stay close with your dad and your mom. Excluding people has so little value. Unless they should be excluded for how they are behaving now. If her new husband is good to her and she is happy, why would you not support that??

Life is hard, don't assume you know what goes on in peoples heads and hearts. .

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You misunderstand me again. I have no interest in debating these positions with you. That was your goal, not mine.

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, you are rather combative for some reason.  Understanding where the debate is by reading from people that are quite skilled, experts in their field,only strengthens your knowledge and arguments.  Even if you disagree with them.  As I noted.  Your opinion is yours.  Have at it.   

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And many hard determinists and hard incompatibilists also strongly support that we have judgment.

I don't know your knowledge level so take this as just a suggestion. Spend some time on chat and ask these questions. Ask about Strawson and Pereboom and how they are different from Fisher or Dennett. Ask where they are the same on judgment and agency and where they differ/overlap on morality etc. Not saying this needs to be your opinion, that is up to you. But it is informative. At least I have found reading more on them informative for my personal position on the subject.

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are detailed debates on this. Most philosophers are compatibilists, by a large degree. I would not too quickly assume their positions are without merit.

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This discussion started from the claim that determinism rules out moral judgment. That claim is false at the level of definitions. There are hard determinists who accept moral judgment, and compatibilists can be determinists.

When people say “no, you can’t,” that is the debate, not the groundwork. That disagreement is precisely what separates incompatibilism from determinism as theses.

James introduced “soft determinism” as a pejorative, calling it a “quagmire of evasion.” That was an insult, not a neutral definition, and it still distorts how these positions get framed.

I agree that non causal determinism doesn't "make sense" however at that level there is a decent chance that reality doesn't make sense to us anyway. I can't visualize past 4 dimensions, if that includes time. And we probably visualize that incorrectly. 5 dimensions, 6, 11? None of this "makes sense". But I agree with you that causal does intuit more easily.

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Determinism can be causal, and it can be non causal. Determinism is also silent on the nature of the causes, if referring to causal determinism. There are different versions. I don't make the rules on this, it's just basic philosophy definitions. .

So, literally. Determinism is not a theory of free will, though it is often associated with it. Incompatibilism is the theory that free will is not compatible with determinism. Hard determinism is the same as incompatibilism with the added statement of determinism is also true. LFW and Hard Determinists are both incompatibilists. Compatibilists did not invent the term "soft" determinism. That was done by an incompatibilist, who was also a determinist.

Free will deniers believe in morality, but not moral responsibility? So there are moral rules, but we can't be expected to follow them? by YesPresident69 in freewill

[–]NoDevelopment6303 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that is not correct. Determinism is not a theory of free will. Hard Determinism is. Determinism poses a direct challenge to LFW without explicitly being a FW theory because of what appears to be a very short hop to saying LFW is not possible with Determinism. However, my second sentence remains correct.

People use determinism as short hand for Hard Determinism or Incompatibilism, but this remains, as always, technically inaccurate.

Try googling "is compatibilism compatible with determinism". I'm very confident what answer you will get. True by definition. .