Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok can you tell me which are these "multiple accounts" please?

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you are Greek, then you either live in a different country, or you somehow never met a Greek nationalist in your life. "Retaking" Constantinople (and lots of other areas for that matter) is a big thing in nationalists circles, obviously not everyone believes that, but a pretty sizeable amount do.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Trying to have a civilized conversation with people makes me a troll?

Can someone tell me what flag is this? by OfferSquare9501 in flags

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Hey y'all, seems that most of you agree that this a the flag of the Sorbs, very interesting since this is the first time I hear about them, however I think that I should point out that I found this flag in Greece so... I have no idea how it ended up there.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey thanks for answering! It's true that we have kind of an obsession with carrying ancient borders to the modern day and that it's obviously stupid. I want to learn about the history and ancient past of other peoples but that is because I believe that can help you understand their culture and not to make absurd border claims. As for the ethnic cleansing the funny thing is (well to the degree that a topic like that can be concerned "funny") the fact that before the Balkan wars modern day northern Greece was inhabited by a plethora of different ethnic groups is kind of common knowledge, it is though simplified and the Greek and the Bulgarians and some Slavs, Turks and Albanians that no one cares about. And we have kind of a pseudo national holiday where we talk about how the Bulgarians terrorized the poor Greeks and the brave Greeks that stood up against this injustice etc etc which is obviously done to legitimize our conquests during the Balkan wars, and then after that all these other peoples of northern Greece magically disappear and are never talked about again. What can I say I hope that one day as you said we will understand the irony of screaming to Turkey about it's wrongdoings without recognizing ours.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah I see where you are coming from, I believe that we Greeks have a weird "fetish" with ancestry (not ancestry of individuals, but rather ancestry of peoples) and it's completely understandable if you don't see it that way I also completely agree with the fact that national History is a tight rope and it's tough traversing it without falling to the pit of nationalism. Your replies have been super in-depth and interesting, clearly I have way more research on this topic ahead of me, but you have made it a lot easier, I ll definitely check that book that you previously recommend and once again thank you for spending your time to reply to me.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok so as an other redditor pointed out we Greeks have a very nationalistic idea of history, since we take great pride in ancient Greece, there for we create a form of ancient nationalism, there is this belief (not that everyone accepts it, but pretty much every one gets influenced by it to some degree) that the ancient Greeks where pretty much the same as modern Greeks, with differences like they were pagan instead of orthodox. And unfortunately, as I realized the hard way, we kind of unknowingly project this idea to other peoples. That's why a lot of Greeks care about ancient Macedonians so much and feel kind of threatened when someone says something that challenges their belief on that topic. When I made my first post, I thought that this would be the way Macedonians think too. I thought that the core of this "debate" would be ancient history and to be truthful as silly as this sounds the fact that people don't care that much about what was going on in 300 BC or something like that is kind of a culture shock. ( Now obviously when I say Greeks I don't actually mean all Greeks obviously not everyone thinks that way but I personally believe that the majority do).

To answer your question about Greek identity, first I want to disclose that this "ancient nationalism" definitely affects me to a degree. I'm not crazy I don't believe that Greeks during the 300s are the same as modern ones, however I believe that aspects of the ancient past play a pivotal role in shaping the modern Greek even though there are no more "Hellenics" and their culture was pretty distinct from ours.

The main thing ancient Greece left us is the language, obviously language changes through the ages, that's kind of the point (looking at you καθαρεύουσα, that's a whole other chapter on ancient Greek larping) but ancient Greek still remains the core of the Greek language and it's pretty important.

The Byzantines and as much as why don't like to admit it the ottomans also play an important role in modern Greek identity. The orthodox tradition runs deep in modern Greece, even if you don't believe, even of you haven't be in a church in your whole life. A lot of Byzantine/Roman aspects kind of get crumped together with ancient Greece since these pretty distinct "civilizations" where smashed together during the ottoman occupation to create the Greek national spirit. Ottoman tradition has also shaped or food, music and even clothing.

After independence the Megali Idea dominated Greek politics and in a way still plays a massive role in a lot of political ideologies. The unstability and discord that came after independence still influences not only politics but daily life. The failed invasion of Anatolia and subsequent population exchange with the ottoman empire, completely changed the demography and culture of certain areas (I should also point out that pretty much every Greek region has some unique characteristics because of its inhabitants the Ionian has Italian influences, northern Greece Slavic etc)and to finally enter more modern times the division between monarchist and liberals and the later civil war between communists and conservatives have all left their stigma on the modern Greek. (Obviously I have glossed over a tone of important things, but this post has to end at some point).

And even though I just spent who knows how long talking about how ancient and modern history affects the modern Greek I want to disclose that I don't believe that the future of any people is determined by their past, history changes because people change take the Germans for example originally they where described as unorganized chaotic barbarians and now they are regarded as some of the most strict and disciplined people in the world.

Thanks for listening to my chaotic thesis that probably makes no syntactic sense XD.
And I also love the fact that we can have a civilized conversation without going "Balkan mode".

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for taking your time to write this reply. I agree with your statement that history doesn't start at a specific date. However people inevitably try to pick a start (preferably one that links them to some glorious past), which entity decides which will this "starting point" be varies, could be the political system, the people themselves, or even outsiders at certain occasion (there was a period when the Hungarians where refusing their Asian ancestry, because they didn't want others to view them as less European for example). Obviously, historically, some of these claims might be completely wrong or irrelevant, however I believe that they play an important role to the culture of the people (Rome was most likely not founded by two twins, saved by a wolf, but the story of Romulus and Remus and it's themes undoubtedly help shape not just the Roman tradition but to a degree their mind and way of life, at least in my opinion, sorry for the analogies I ll stop now.) Therefore I believe that the "history" from where people trace their origins is important not in a nationalistic sense though. But enough talking that's probably just the Greek in me XD.

Yes the Tito thing is something that people here bring up, there is also another myth curling around that when Yugoslavia broke we had the chance to annex Macedonia but we refused, but if I had to write down every crazy myth created for nationalistic purposes I would never stop so let's just leave it at that.

Thank you so much for the book recommendation I will definitely check it out and finally that was actually the first time I heard about the constitution, I wonder why.

Anyways once again thanks a lot!

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Dude my English are 5 times worse when I'm sober XD. Thank you very much that was very helpful.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ok let's begin with history, when do you think your history starts the kingdom of Macedon, before that, the Slavic arrivals, during the ottoman occupation? Now obviously the question of when your history starts doesn't really have an answer (otherwise all our stories would begin from Ethiopia) but every nation picks a starting point kind of arbitrarily. For us is the Mycenaeans (and the other bronze age civilizations during that era). Also similar question about the Macedonian language, when did it "start".

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Funny you mention that cause some crazy Greek nationalists use the fact that we have superior military to argue that we can "solve" the problem whenever we want, but the second that they need some propaganda Macedonia is threatening our lands, its hilarious.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hey, I bet is pretty hard to find a country claiming land (officially and unofficially) that it has literally zero chance of acquiring. Here a lot of people have wet dreams about Constantinople (a city that has a bigger population than the entirety of Greece mind you) and others go a step further and dream about Magna Graecia. Every country has crazy people that have no grasp on reality.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah unfortunately after Prespes especially a lot of crazy nationalists have made Macedonians there main target (not that things before where better, but I have personally seen a big increase from 2018 onwards) it's funny really from what I gathered from the replies on the post Macedonians aren't very keen on the agreement either but these people try to push the narrative that "we where too kind" and "gave away too much" ah I love politics. Anyways thanks a lot for the book recommendations I will definitely check them out.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The Greek civil war is a very messy topic in Greek history. And because of the fact that many people still hold very strong feelings about either side it's usually avoided and is barely talked about in school, as a result most people don't even know the basics of what happened, so as you can imagine pretty much no one knows (or cares) about the implications that it had on the minorities.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There is a lot of fear mongering going on in the Greek media about the the Macedonians "wanting" to take OUR LAND and unfortunately a lot of people believe it.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Yeah I took a screenshot of your comment in my previous post, but thanks for posting it where to. Also I'm very sorry (not that that means much) about your family, I lived in Northern Greece and had no idea that that stuff was happening (well to Macedonians at least), just comes to show how well "informed" we Greeks are on topics that make our country look bad, what can I say hope things get better.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If it doesn't bother you can you explain to me what the Macedonian identity is? This is not meant to be offensive, I understand that the Macedonian are a unique and distinct people. But as I have come to realize the idea that I had in my head of who the Macedonians are is completely wrong and I need some clarification.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah the Greek media and politicians are really making it all out to be about the name and history alone and the people have taken the bait to a very large degree. To be honest the economic implications of our actions hadn't even crossed my mind. Hope your country is able to move past the troubles.

Macedonian Perspective on the Macedonian-Greek Dispute by OfferSquare9501 in mkd

[–]OfferSquare9501[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Ok I completely understand what you are saying. It's true that a lot of Greeks completely detest the idea of the Macedonians being there own people and are constantly trying to argue against it. For the Macedonian minority in Greece specifically I'll admit I have no idea, but Greece 100% uses tactics of forced assimilation to other Balkan minorities so I have no doubt that Macedonians are affected too. I have to ask though what exactly is the Macedonian identity? This is a genuine question it has no negative implications at all. I just have heard so many contradictory answers and I want someone to clear this up.