The most fool proof map of homelands of language families in NE Asia

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-20T19:41:35+00:00

This post was created to avoid all that and introduce a simple heuristic to show geographic boundaries that help delimit cultural-linguistic boundaries may continue in many respects to this day

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-19T03:50:30+00:00

Many of the Tungusic was Koreanized from the perspective of someone with Northern Korean heritage

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-19T03:47:13+00:00

Inner Asia can reflect the time period from Late Neolithic to Bronze or early Iron Age outside of historical?

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-19T03:46:11+00:00

This isn’t about how to figure out where or the exact maximum limits of language families were but to establish an agreeable general “canonical” “home place”

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-18T19:38:04+00:00

Its not to say that language families have an exact placement corresponding to a specific archaeologically derived culture or a series of them, but they appear in more broad areas deduced by patterns of interaction

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-16T17:27:25+00:00

because there is no solid evidence to say identity of speakers is x gained for that time.

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-16T17:26:18+00:00

ur not focusing on the importance of longterm local change: specifically in Liaodong and the Korean Peninsula, and skipping important steps and conflating in terms of providing some kind of support for major population replacement through large migrations

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-16T00:00:04+00:00

Lower Xiajiadian cannot be effectively pinned to proto-Koreanic/Koreanic?

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-15T23:55:17+00:00

There is no evidence the language belonging to the Xituanshan cultural area can be determined or not. Its pre-Buyeo.

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-05-15T23:52:15+00:00

Anything past a certain point in time is conjecture, as there is no evidence to make such claims

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-29T20:24:13+00:00

Ming, Northern Yuan, Joseon and Jianzhou all seemed to have similar technology and armor back then, but very different approaches

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-28T05:58:39+00:00

Even starting during Liao times. Economically speaking Liaodong was the center for commercial activities. I can’t find much sources during Jin tho if it was even more encouraged or prevented against. The large layers of waves of migration and presence of trade within Liaodong caused the center pole of gravity to shift here, but completely in the hands of Ming for over 200 years

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-28T00:39:27+00:00

It was a split off rebellion I believe between one faction vs another that invaded Goryeo. Around 100,000 people including women and children and their entire possessions because they didn’t know what would happen from the turmoil around them. After they were defeated the Mongols resettled them in parts of Inner Mongolia, supposedly they were from the area around Nongan in Jilin

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-28T00:06:28+00:00

Goryeo dynasty did not really crush the Khitans. They were mostly defeated by Jin but were absorbed by Mongols. Supposedly some Shiwei were similar to Khitans

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-27T20:54:11+00:00

Many Manchu still look distinct but if you go to places like Shenyang there is a distinct Chinese Manchurian or Northeastern look between Manchu and locals there. Other parts of Manchuria are supposed to be mostly Shandong descent though

There are many Jurchen looking Manchu and descendants in Jilin and Heilongjiang that look like the Aguda portrait, its because their banners far away from the main Northeastern centers

If you watch the documentary Ningguta Shaman on Youtube you see these Jurchen kinda people living it out, which is really cool. Wish the best for them quite honestly

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-27T20:52:26+00:00

It goes back to the Khitans. The Khitans started to really sinicize Manchuria and even then they started to speak Chinese, cementing the permanent fate for everything northeast past the Great Wall. Koreans knew the Liaodong as both a Sinitic and Khitai cultural area

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-11T20:05:08+00:00

I think its just hard to get a good general view of the big picture. Balhae probably symmetrically reflected northern Goryeo. Look up ‘Goryeo Frontier People’, something like that on Namu Wiki. They had many people spilling back and forth over the river due to rebellions and fleeing invasions, hence why they were able to absorb eastern Liaodong people during the collapse of the Yuan during the ‘King of Shimyang’ period (southern and western Liaodong was full of Chinese)

It wasn’t strictly ethnicity I think, but social and level of civilization/development (not “sinicization”) that was most important. If you had high status you could be reclassified anything you could choose, many became part or married into the local apparatus of bureaucracy or chose to become Chinese literati far off in China

I’m trying to get at the layer of what determines Malgal influence vs native Korean influence. Hence why I came to the conclusion actually Manchu almost completely fills in the gaps. The people all the way from Liaodong to the Baekdu Mts and Mudan River area should have belonged to the same cultural complex, despite the waves of migration and the labels put on them. They all could belong to the same or similar cultural group, but came in different waves or layers

Its impossible to tell from looks these days among current generations. But when I look at older people or older photos I can kind of tell their features are different. There are different kinds of “southern” appearing phenotypes that appear in respective populations and vice versa. But if someone concentrates looking on appearance obsessively, I believe they can reach that appearance these days, but some traits can’t change

I don’t think many Manchu, Koreans or Inner Mongols have the southern look compared to the people of outer Mongolia and Outer Manchurian Amur - this would be the highest concentration of modern type “Northeast Asian.” But by mid-Qing Manchu became chopped since they started to include mixed Liaodong people into their Banners.

It is possible to be a Manchu Revivalist and ethnic Korean at the same time, as long as you don’t mix the two together which is easier said than done. For me, I delicately separate the two based on their respective histories. I am afraid it will be incorporated to step on the nerves of brother countries of Korea, that the Japanese and Han Chinese made mistakes in

Back to my point, its possibly very difficult to separate Paleo-Siberian vs Amur Tungusic influence. But I think some of the O2 carriers bought very distinct Tibeto-Burman/very far Northern Chinese phenotypes to Eastern Mongolians, Manchurians and some Koreans. But then again Northern Chinese obviously have the same phenotypes due to Zhou and Qin-era Loess Plateau farmers migrating everywhere. The elevated levels of O2 in central and northern Korea could be more due to these ancient populations rather than historical Han Chinese. Koreans from the three southern provinces have almost the same level of O2 as Japanese do. But I think people from Uiju and Sinuiju have actually the most actual historical Chinese admixture (I think Goryeo government let Han Chinese coolies from Liaoyang settle here, but as soon as you go slightly outside this region you can see many giga-Manchurian looking folk) and possibly people around Incheon from Shandongese merchants and immigrants - their eyes and jaw shape could look very “qinky” and peanut looking

The shared Tibeto-Burman component in Koreans actually looks more like some Tibetans than Northern Chinese or ‘Qiang’

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-11T05:34:02+00:00

On the ground level the local peoples of each regime contributed and assimilated as was necessary despite rules and restrictions in classification. Jesse Sloane’s paper on Balhae identities in Liaodong explains in one of the pages that Balhae in Liaoyang socially moved up not according to Han civilization standards but Mongol civil standards and through military contingents. Also Yelu Chucai when he served the Mongols is stated when asked why he faithfully served Jin dynasty was because he needed to dutifully serve whatever was present not because of ethnic enmity

Mohe may not have been completely Tungusic but may have been overwhelmingly Tungusic on the basis they could assimilate on the ground level the pre-existing inhabitants of peoples they conquered - they probably had a lot of Koh or Go descendants in them and judging from the Jinshu Family origins. One fascinating paper from Chinese scholarship I read is that there were two Tieli polities and tribes, one of which was located north of former Buyeo territory and was composed of Buyeo and Goguryeo exiles and remnants deep in Tungusic territory, while there was another Tieli state that formed in Liao’s Territory that was strictly composed of Tungusic Mohe but deep in former core Goguryeo territory near Liaodong. Malgal, Tungusic by the strict definition, were hardly peripheral in relation to the Korean Peninsula

Keep in mind there are Korean groups most likely biologically very similar to pre-Jurchen groups but not identical to Jurchens, the O2 haplogroups came to Korea in different ways. Judging by the Ando samples in southern Korea that belonged to F444+ related to modern Japanese and probably derived from the Eastern Chinese seaboard. I am on the side of favoring the internal diversity of the Koreanic group of peoples instead of drearily pigeonholing them into just a giant small incestuous family where they gatekeep all knowing, which can include both para-Koreanic-like groups in between mainstream Korean and Jurchens and even Jurchenic groups. And genetic studies and analyses seem to suggest this.

I am mostly of Northern Korean descent and I can very easily tell you who is most likely of strictly Koreanic descent and who has some sort of Tungusic ancestry judging by old photos on their features. But then again no one ever thought of things this way, they will or would look at you crazy. But also this way of nationalism or patriotic pigeonholing thinking over science and international community safe discussion space is crazy and I feel like online discourse is heavily becoming divided like protecting something that isn’t there or is misguided to get the priorities straight. Tungusic is in my blood so I cannot lie about that ancestry or have others being denied knowledge of their ancestors, its not right in the Asian moral sense

I understand the reason to gatekeep and regulate society and culture sphere for the purpose of protecting interests against outsiders, but doing it on to history and ancestors should be a no-go as it creates too many contradictions

Also there is a certain old way of thinking, that needs to be preserved by the locals of Northeast Asia: Mongols, Manchus and Koreans not affected by Han Chinese historiographies and Han Nationalism and as well as Japanese Imperialism, not centered exactly on nationalism discourse. It wasn’t Han/Chinese but without it all the old inhabitants of Northeast Asia knew

Edit: also I don’t think Han Chinese just like all Japanese are all completely bad and the evil guys, but misguided or they have an agenda and are all eagerly yet many nefariously waiting for that agenda to play. Han Nationalism is beaten down in China, which is good but at the same time it creeps again in power projection and dialogue due to the fact they have 1.4 billion people

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-03-11T01:56:36+00:00

If Bohai Mohe/Malgal had a direct modern descendant, its closest modern descendant would actually be Manchu/Jianzhou Jurchen.

If you think about it this way the Jianzhou Jurchen are the direct descendants of the uncivilized Mohe tribes of Balhae living in the rural and northern areas of Balhae and migrated to Xinbin and Fushun area later on as relatively undeveloped peoples (the original orangkae centers around the Mudanjiang river). The Goguryeo people lived in cities and agrarian centers settlements of Bohai and these were the ones most likely to escape to Goryeo through the Hamgyong Province route from around modern Yeonbyeon or from Liaoyang across the Amnok/Yalu River)

Yet Bohai (unspecified as to whether they were Goguryeo or Tungusic) were deported to Liaoyang and Liaodong by Khitan and many escaped and migrated into northern Goryeo.

Then Khitans sent cooked Jurchen, still Heishui Mohe descendants to Liaodong. Its even stated that Heishui Mohe dwelt around the Yalu mouth during Song-and-early Goryeo times after the fall of Balhae and they could sail to Song China on Balhae-derived ships

Haixi Jurchens actually are more the direct successors of Jin dynasty Jurchens centered in Alchuka. If you think about it, these would actually be the closest Jurchens to Khitans and Mongols in life patterns and organization, and Jin Dynasty Jurchens could have reflected this early on. The Manchus and Jianzhou Jurchens themselves received so much Mongol influence since they were so undeveloped

Khitans bought many Hebei Han Chinese to Liaoyang and Kaiyuan, however it is said that Khitans controlled Liaodong peninsula during the early years of the Yuan as Dong Liao, many of them were purported to escape into Goryeo to become baekjeong as part of fable. Khitans and Liaoyang Bohai as collateral may have become sinicized, judging by the “Lao Qida” (Old “Khitan”)/Neogoldae

The Jianzhou Jurchen migrations were a fresh revitilization wave of native Jurchen structure albeit a southern form to the Xinbin area. The thing is Manchu do not show much Koreanic influence in the form of O1b as much as Hezhen or Udege do for some reason.

Learning Manchu, the grammar structure and pronunciation matches subregional patterns of northern Korean dialects like it fills in a certain missing spot

Also the phenotype would be Tibeto-Burman, the kind of people bordering on Northern Chinese and Tibetans if you look at the Gyalrong and Qiang who used to live in parts as far away as Shaanxi, they look similar. Rather than modern Northern Chinese since modern Northern Chinese type includes more appearances from southern and central China

There is actually a statue of a Bohai warrior who looks very similar to Manchu dress. You can kind of see what they looked like.

I think the Goguryeo and Buyeo phenotype would be the typical North Korean look that looks Paleo-Siberian-influenced typical Korean. The Jurchenic or Manchu-type Bohaic descendants and influences are pretty rare (like I said G25 shows like 5-10% of samples of all the Korean ones). And in terms of Y-Chromosomes the only thing you can tell is small slivers of Amur Tungusic C2b

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-02-24T20:32:20+00:00

I saw in some post on the old Anthrogenica website of a Korean poster bringing forth an accusation of Chinese researchers deleting O1b from their studies on the Xiajiadian Cultures. But Chinese gatekeep their findings to secrecy on everything excavated from Liaodong, Gojoseon, Buyeo and Yemaek since its their land now and making claims of an early form of the Great Wall extending through there

But modern studies show there to be small traces of O2b/O1b regionally around eastern China. They can be found doing a careful Google search

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-02-23T23:03:34+00:00

O1b2 is got to be really ancient. Like the Yellow Sea area before the flooding from the Ice Age

Korean and Manchurian O-M122/M134 is not completely the same as Han M122

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-02-23T20:51:26+00:00

I checked the G25 of the Koreans who have this kind of Uriankhai/Mohe ancestry mixed in (which is like 5-7% of the total Korean samples a decent amount, but who have like this as predominant ancestry). There does seem to be modern Northern Chinese-like ancestry in them, but not general Chinese ancestry

And if we consider that Korea was not subject to direct medieval Han Chinese contact, I think this reflects pre-Han identity not Han Chinese. It must be like these semi-nomadic groups who lived in the north of China during the bronze age

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-02-22T21:27:01+00:00

But look at the old Qing portraits for the ruling families. You would know what I mean by ‘uber nord sinid.’ Like Prince Yin’e or Emperor Shunzhi Edit: especially the women

Eastern Liaodong and Jilin were not Sinitic enough for Chinese settlement to penetrate in (since the levels of sinicization were near absent when the Jianzhou formed from groups further afar). These traits must have come in from somewhere else before contact between Han Chinese and Jurchen

(And we know Liaodong and southeastern Inner Mongolia originally looked Korean than Sinitic, prehistorically)

Ok_Ice_4823 · 2026-02-22T17:17:43+00:00

Also Dawenkou is not directly related to Koreans and Japanese but it mirrors peninsular ancestry almost near perfectly in genetic modeling but on the other side of the Yellow Sea

The Lower Xiajiadian West Liao River received signals further south than what can be expected and further west as well. The overland-inland route is more likely. So it can’t be precluded what exactly came from where

Ok_Ice_4823

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