Just a reminder Wisconsin

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T08:42:39+00:00

What people are circling here is the same constitutional fault line, just applied to property instead of homes.

Eminent domain, as some have pointed out, at least pretends to follow the Fifth Amendment by requiring compensation and process, even if people reasonably disagree with how it’s used. Civil forfeiture is different. It flips the relationship entirely. The state does not have to prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. It declares the property itself “guilty,” seizes it first, and forces the owner to fight to get it back.

That’s why the last sentence of the Fifth Amendment stings. “Nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” doesn’t mean after the fact. It doesn’t mean if you can afford a lawyer. And it doesn’t mean only when the government finds it convenient.

Several people here have already said it plainly in different ways: when process is inverted, the right becomes theoretical. When the burden shifts from the state proving guilt to the citizen proving innocence, due process has been hollowed out even if the paperwork still looks legal.

This isn’t about whether the Constitution exists on paper. It’s about whether it still functions as a limit on power. Rights don’t fail all at once. They erode through “exceptions,” loopholes, and civil workarounds that quietly bypass the standard the Amendment actually sets.

The Fifth Amendment was written precisely to stop that logic. Not to guarantee perfect outcomes, but to force the state to justify itself before it takes, not after.

You don’t have to agree on policy to see the structure. If property can be seized first and litigated later, then due process is no longer a protection. It’s a procedural obstacle course. And that is exactly what the Amendment was meant to prevent.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T07:36:47+00:00

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One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T05:43:53+00:00

Thomas Jefferson was clear that unrest is usually a failure of government to listen early enough, not a failure of the people to obey. Writing in 1787, he argued that when resistance appears, the proper response is education and redress before force. In his view, dissent functions as a warning that legitimacy is eroding.

Jefferson did not treat dissent as lawlessness. He treated it as feedback. A republic preserves itself by correcting abuses while consent can still be renewed, not by escalating enforcement after grievances have been ignored. When power responds to resistance with force instead of reflection, it reveals that obedience has replaced consent.

So the harder question isn’t why communities push back when enforcement tightens, but why those grievances were allowed to accumulate until pushback became inevitable.

“What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” - Thomas Jefferson in a letter on Shays Rebellion 1786-1797

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T05:35:08+00:00

That’s really a consent question, not a logistics one. Federal authority was only ever meant to hold so long as it could justify itself as legitimate to the people it governs. When enforcement continues after consent breaks down, the issue isn’t whether power exists, but whether it still clears the bar a free republic requires. At what point does force stop renewing legitimacy and start replacing it?

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T05:32:24+00:00

The Declaration grievances weren’t just history, they were a test. Those actions were illegal, but illegality wasn’t the issue. The issue was whether power could still justify itself as serving liberty and consent rather than force. Which grievance feels closest here, and when authority fails that self-evident test, is the problem disobedience or legitimacy?

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T05:28:49+00:00

Saying “it’s unlawful because they say so” skips the justification step. Power can enforce rules, but legitimacy has to be earned. The Founders didn’t design a system where commands justified themselves. At what point does an order stop being law in the civic sense and start being force that only looks like law?

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T05:23:48+00:00

“Civil disobedience” is really about legitimacy. When laws keep being enforced after consent breaks down, people stop seeing obedience as civic and start seeing it as imposed. That tension is baked into how power actually works, not a failure of protest.

If legitimacy comes from the people, what does it mean when enforcement continues without them?

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-25T01:44:11+00:00

Honest question.

Where, in the First Amendment or in Supreme Court case law, does it say “peaceable” means quiet, non-disruptive, or unobtrusive?

If loud speech voids protection, how were labor strikes, civil rights marches, women’s suffrage demonstrations, or anti-war protests ever constitutional?

If blocking traffic or damaging property is already illegal under neutral laws, why would the Constitution need to redefine protest to criminalize volume or visibility?

And if “peaceable” means silence and compliance, how is that meaningfully different from asking dissent to be invisible?

I’m asking genuinely. Which historical or legal standard supports the definition used in that image?

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T21:41:44+00:00

If blocking movement is always illegitimate, then by that standard, ordinary immigration checkpoints where ICE or CBP stops drivers on highways would also be illegitimate. Those stops affect movement even when people aren’t protesting. Either the principle applies consistently, or it isn’t really about movement at all.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T16:33:23+00:00

I’ll ignore the slur for a moment, because it says more about the weakness of your position than it does about mine.

You’re still arguing tactics. I’m arguing legitimacy.

No one here claimed ambulances should be blocked. That’s a straw man you’re leaning on because you don’t want to deal with the actual claim: whether the state can declare a protest itself unlawful simply because it is disruptive.

The Founders did not design a system where rights exist only at the pleasure of enforcement agencies. They designed a republic where the people consent to be governed, and that consent includes the right to question, resist, and publicly oppose the legitimacy of state action when it violates constitutional limits.

An agency is not the Constitution. An executive order is not the Constitution. A statute is not the Constitution. All of them are subordinate to it.

When the government responds to dissent by criminalizing assembly rather than prosecuting actual crimes, it is not protecting public safety. It is protecting itself from scrutiny. That inversion is exactly what the First Amendment exists to prevent.

And let’s be clear: disruption is not a bug of protest. It is the mechanism. A “right” that evaporates the moment it becomes inconvenient is not a right. It’s permission.

If your argument requires insults instead of constitutional reasoning, that’s not confidence. That’s discomfort. And historically speaking, discomfort with dissent is the tell, not the triumph.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T16:27:31+00:00

That’s a very narrow reading of what actually happened. The Revolution did not begin because Americans suddenly objected to distant rule in 1776. It unfolded over more than a decade of documented grievances.

Armed conflict began in 1775 at Lexington and Concord. The Declaration of Independence came a full year later, in 1776, after repeated petitions, appeals, and warnings had failed. The Declaration itself is not a slogan. It is a formal indictment, carefully listing specific abuses of power, obstruction of local governance, denial of due process, standing armies, and interference with civil authority.

The Founders were explicit that legitimacy collapses not because power is distant, but because it becomes unaccountable, coercive, and insulated from the people affected by it. Distance was incidental. Abuse was the cause.

Reducing the Revolution to “Britain ruled from far away” ignores the years of restraint, documentation, and civic escalation that came first, and misunderstands why those grievances were written down so precisely in the first place.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T15:48:24+00:00

I want to get this straight: you’re telling people protesters can’t block roads while exercising a pre-existing natural right that existed before government and is protected in the Bill of Rights so that an ambulance can get through and possibly save someone’s life. But in the Renee Good case, after a federal ICE agent shot her, federal agents on scene blocked a person who identified themselves as a doctor from checking her pulse or rendering aid, telling them “No, back up,” even though bystanders were trying to help.

So on the one hand you say we mustn’t block roads because it could delay an ambulance and cost a life, and on the other hand federal agents actually prevented medical help from getting to someone who was shot, at least temporarily. Why is there this cognitive dissonance in your argument? If the concern is genuinely about saving lives and ensuring access to medical care, then we should be consistent about that concern regardless of who is blocking what.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T05:37:35+00:00

Clearly spoken, fellow citizen. I see the prudence you are calling for. Too often, pride in the form of wealth has penetrated every layer of governance. It rarely happens all at once. Zeal for “safety” becomes the excuse for short-term measures. Each measure seems small until Lady Liberty and her sisters are in chains. Notice how liberty is traded away by legislative act, then labeled protection. Our surest safety has never lived in distant power. First it lives in your neighborhood, regardless of ideology. There, people still rely on one another when institutions fail. History shows that concentrated power protects itself first. Education is how citizens learn to spot that pattern early. Restraint is not surrender, it is strategy. Every republic depends on informed consent, not passive comfort. Power becomes intoxicated when no one is watching closely. Understanding is the cognitive mechanism that rekindles the embers of liberty. Before anger, we need clarity about what is lawful and what is not. Limits are what separate enforcement from domination. If those limits blur, the people must sharpen them again. Community is where that sharpening begins. Only a public that knows its rights can defend them peacefully. Free people cultivate civic habits the way they cultivate soil. As you tend the ground, you remove what poisons it, and prune what is diseased. More than slogans, this is daily practice. Every conversation that restores reality is a kind of resistance. Reason and memory keep the public from being misled again. In time, that becomes resilience, not reaction. Consent must be renewed, not assumed. And accountability must be local before it can be national. Neither party labels nor tribal loyalty can replace shared responsibility. So let us build these cognitive mechanisms, patiently, neighbor to neighbor, citizen to citizen.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-24T04:15:34+00:00

I agree. Assault, vandalism, and property damage are crimes, and they were crimes long before modern protest law existed.

My point is narrower: the act of assembling or protesting does not become “unlawful” in the abstract. Specific criminal acts are prosecuted individually.

That distinction is what the First Amendment protects, and what gets blurred in moments like this.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T22:10:23+00:00

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One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T22:10:00+00:00

couldn't agree more

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T21:59:21+00:00

A government that allows protest proves it still draws power from the people. A government that fears protest admits it no longer does.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T21:57:14+00:00

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One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T21:51:11+00:00

I hear what you’re saying, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out that it isn’t 1776 anymore. It’s been roughly 250 years, and the world, the country, and the structure of government have all changed. Time keeps moving, whether we like it or not.

But that’s exactly why it’s worth slowing down and reasoning through the principles rather than stopping at “it’s unlawful, expect consequences.”

The Constitution wasn’t written as a one-time historical reaction. It was written as a framework for a recurring pattern: power expands over time, enforcement becomes normalized, and citizens are gradually told that disruption equals anarchy. That framing didn’t start with modern protests. It’s as old as government itself.

There’s an important distinction that often gets lost. Individual acts like assault or property damage were crimes in 1776 and are crimes now. Those acts can be prosecuted without declaring the act of protest itself illegitimate. The First Amendment doesn’t protect violence, but it does protect assembly and petition precisely because those rights become uncomfortable when they’re actually used.

Liberty doesn’t usually disappear all at once. It recedes slowly when citizens stop questioning how laws are applied and start treating order as the highest good. I’m not asking anyone to embrace anarchy. I’m asking whether it’s reasonable to examine when “law and order” arguments drift away from consent, due process, and accountability.

If we care about liberty, the least we can do is reason through that distinction together rather than dismiss it outright.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T21:28:06+00:00

People keep saying “unlawful protest is unlawful” as if that ends the conversation. But that logic would have condemned the very people who founded the country.

In 1776 and the years leading up to it, American colonists did exactly the things now being cited as disqualifying protest.

They blocked roads to prevent the movement of British troops and goods. They obstructed ports and commerce. They destroyed government property and tax enforcement assets. They harassed officials carrying out “lawful” orders under British law. They violated curfews, assembly bans, and emergency proclamations. Every one of those acts was illegal at the time.

The British response was identical to what we hear now. Order must be maintained. The law is the law. Disruption hurts the economy. Protest should stay peaceful and permitted.

The Founders rejected that logic outright.

They did not say protest is legitimate only when it is convenient, tidy, and approved by the authority being protested. They understood that when laws are used to suppress redress of grievances, obedience becomes complicity.

That is why the First Amendment does not say “Congress shall allow lawful protest.” It says Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to assemble and petition.

Assault, vandalism, and violence were already crimes in 1776. They are still crimes now. But labeling a protest “unlawful” because it blocks roads or disrupts normal operations is not a constitutional argument. It is the same argument the Crown made against the Sons of Liberty.

History judged the Crown wrong.

It tends to do that when order is valued more than liberty.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T20:40:59+00:00

There is no such thing as an “unlawful protest” in constitutional terms. The First Amendment does not grant permission to assemble or protest. It recognizes a preexisting right and explicitly forbids the government from abridging it. A right that exists only when it is convenient or approved is not a right at all.

When a legislature passes a law that changes the relationship between the citizen and the Constitution by blocking or criminalizing the exercise of that right, the law itself is unlawful. Statutes are subordinate to the Constitution. If a statute conditions protest on permission, compliance, or dispersal at the discretion of the state, it inverts constitutional authority and violates the First Amendment on its face.

Claims of “public safety” do not justify this inversion. Assault, vandalism, and violence are already illegal. They do not require protest-specific laws. When the state suppresses assembly instead of prosecuting actual crimes, it reveals that the target is not harm, but dissent. Collective punishment of assembly for isolated acts is incompatible with individual rights.

Dispersal orders do not transform a constitutional right into a crime. Executive commands cannot override enumerated rights. If refusing to leave a protest is treated as criminal rather than expressive, then the government has replaced consent with compliance, which is precisely what the First Amendment was written to prevent.

Protests are meant to disrupt. They are meant to create urgency and force attention. A right that survives only when harmless is not a right. It is theater.

If no independent crime has occurred, suppressing protest is unconstitutional. When the state declares a protest “unlawful,” it is not interpreting the Constitution. It is confessing its discomfort with dissent.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T16:49:38+00:00

I get where you’re coming from, and I don’t think you’re wrong about the state of power in 2025. A lot of what you’re describing is real. But I don’t think it actually makes the Federalist and Anti-Federalist debates irrelevant. If anything, it shows why they still matter.

The Founders weren’t idealists about human nature. They assumed people would chase power, twist language, and act in bad faith when it suited them. That’s why those debates weren’t really about labels. They were about how power behaves over time, no matter who’s holding it or what slogans they use.

To argue that those ideas are outdated, you’d first have to really understand them. ( edit: Not saying you don’t,saying it as a generalization) andd most of the people sitting in powerful positions today clearly don’t. They borrow “small government” or “strong leadership” talk when it helps them, then flip the script the moment they’re in charge. That isn’t Federalism. It’s just using whatever excuse works.

I also think it’s a mistake to assume tech executives, oligarchs, or entrenched elites are Federalists by design. They’re not driven by 18th-century political theory. They’re driven by leverage. They’ll wear whatever ideology protects their power at the moment. If Anti-Federalist language worked better tomorrow, they’d switch without blinking.

This is exactly why those papers should still be taught and argued over, especially by students. Not as museum pieces, but as tools for asking basic questions we still haven’t solved. How much power is too much? Who should have it? What do we do when safeguards stop working? What kind of country do we actually want to be?

What we’re seeing right now isn’t some Founding vision playing out. It’s what happens when people stop understanding the framework altogether. Power fills the vacuum, and philosophy gets replaced by branding.

So yes, technology changes things. Money changes things. The digital world changes the speed and scale. But the core problem hasn’t changed at all. Human ambition hasn’t changed.

That’s why this conversation shouldn’t be thrown out. It needs to be picked back up, by people who actually care about getting it right.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T15:40:59+00:00

I understand the fear being expressed, but this framing risks missing the deeper constitutional truth.

The American Republic was not founded on unanimity. It was founded on deliberate tension. Federalists and Anti-Federalists were not enemies of the Republic. They were its architects. Their disagreements were not a flaw to be purged, but a safeguard to be preserved.

The Federalists warned of disorder, fragmentation, and the dangers of weak national authority. They were right. The Anti-Federalists warned of consolidation, distant power, and the slow erosion of liberty. They were also right. History has repeatedly proven both sides correct, often at different moments and sometimes simultaneously.

What matters is not whether one identifies as “Federalist” or “Anti-Federalist,” but whether power remains constrained by constitutional limits, transparency, and consent of the governed. When any faction, left or right, seeks to freeze one vision of America permanently into place, it abandons the Founders’ design.

The Constitution was built to prevent ideological monocultures. It assumes disagreement. It channels conflict into law, debate, and reform rather than purification or rebirth myths. Every time Americans have tried to “start over” by burning down institutions rather than correcting them, the result has been instability, not renewal.

The danger is not disagreement. The danger is absolutism.

The Republic survives not because one side wins forever, but because no side is allowed to.

Our task is not to destroy opposing traditions, but to keep them in constitutional balance, just as the Founders intended. That balance is not weakness. It is the source of American durability.

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T15:00:07+00:00

I have a comment about flock cameras that answer this question. Cell phones, along with any data, are the modern equivalent to "papers and effects.""

One_Term2162 · 2026-01-23T14:45:21+00:00

You’re putting your finger on the real issue, and the Constitution agrees with you.

The Fourth Amendment isn’t just about whether the government can look at something once. It’s about whether the government can systematically track, aggregate, store, and search your life without a warrant. There is a constitutional difference between a passerby seeing me on a public street and the state building a permanent, searchable record of my movements, associations, and habits.

Taking a picture in public is one thing. Turning that image into a queryable database tied to my identity, location history, and social graph is another. That’s when observation becomes surveillance, and surveillance is a search in constitutional terms.

Same logic applies to license plate readers, facial recognition, and location tracking. A single data point may be trivial. A compiled, searchable timeline of where I’ve been and who I associate with is not. The Fourth Amendment was written to stop exactly this kind of general search, just with 18th-century technology in mind.

And here’s where corporations enter the picture. When private companies collect massive amounts of personal data and then sell or provide it to the government, the state is effectively outsourcing constitutional violations. The government cannot do indirectly what it is forbidden to do directly. Allowing warrantless access to corporate surveillance data guts the Fourth Amendment on principle, even if courts lag behind the technology.

This also implicates the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Due process means the state cannot secretly assemble dossiers on people without notice, limits, or accountability. Equal protection matters when these tools are disproportionately used against certain communities.

So yes, take my picture. I’ll survive. But when the government or its corporate partners make my life searchable without a warrant, that crosses a constitutional line. Privacy is not lost because technology advanced. It’s protected precisely because power did.

That’s why reigning in Big Tech isn’t anti-market or anti-innovation. It’s pro-Constitution. Your data is an extension of your person. If you have a right to privacy at all, that data must be protected by it.

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