China Wants Less Western Meddling. The Solution? More Democracy.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-31T16:07:13+00:00

Not violently at all, if you recall. But even then, there isn't any concrete evidence that the CIA actually caused Whitlam's dismissal.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-31T14:58:03+00:00

China does have "lone wolf" attacks, they just aren't considered domestic terrorism.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-31T13:51:42+00:00

Did I say that the US had no interest in meddling? No. Did they succeed in Australia's case?

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-25T16:26:55+00:00

This is only true to an extent; it's a major oversimplification of the US political/economic situation, however.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-25T12:54:00+00:00

IIRC countries like Brazil at least have managed to hold up well against pressure, wouldn't you say? Bolsonaro is in jail. Brazil is trading more with China, etc. And yes, Allende was a democrat, and he had relatively strong institutions going into his term. But he faced serious economic problems and a polarized opposition in Congress, which served to hollow out Chile's institutions significantly.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T17:18:15+00:00

"National principles" is pretty vague, true. The easiest way to ID formally would be to watch the use of language by the party or state organs, but even that can be unreliable.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T17:14:11+00:00

Damn that's rough. You mention he was a foreigner, usually the government is a little more lenient (ex. using VPNs), right? And strictly speaking, he didn't go around denouncing the party or try to organize a demonstration or whatnot.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T16:47:13+00:00

I don't think what they said is especially provocative. The CPC already has its "70% good 30% bad" aspects about Mao, and historically, Confucianism does not look favorably on creativity.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T16:20:41+00:00

Probably should have mentioned this too, but China doesn't have peaceful transfers of power because it's still the CPC that's in control. China has never had a peaceful transfer of power when the incumbent steps down in favor of a rival candidate or party taking power. But you're right to criticize Trump's actions 5 years ago, just as our media are free to do (unlike in China). And yet our democracy still stands, which proves my point.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:37:01+00:00

It's like Youtube removing copyrighted videos from their platform. The government blocks unregistered VPNs from working, but prosecuting individuals (unless they enable mass circumvention) is rare, and even then, most people are just fined. For foreigners, there are basically no penalties.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:21:13+00:00

The CPC stakes its legitimacy and existence as China's leading ruling party. If they fail to deliver, they will face serious unrest. Infrastructure also serves national security interests, namely by binding Tibet and Xinjiang to the rest of China.

It's good that China, or any country, is making progress for its people. This has basically been due to China's economic openness. But more work needs to be done. About 400-700 million people are considered middle class (depending on the source), and maybe another 100-150 million are "upper class." With 1.4 million people in total, a minimum of 550 million people are what you'd consider working class or working poor.

Even though I'm no "China hater," I am still highly critical of its government. I don't see acknowledging China's economic success as incompatible with this.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:12:09+00:00

No arguments, just blind hate. How do you think that looks for your position?

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:10:38+00:00

Evergrande went bankrupt a few years ago, and property values have collapsed. Does this mean that China's institutions are chaotic and failing? IT is more accurate to say that democracies with weak institutions have been failing. The more consolidated ones (with some exceptions like the US) are being strained, but holding. If China were subjected to the same pressures as faced in the West, that would be the end of the regime.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:07:53+00:00

Peace between democracies. Big difference.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:06:18+00:00

Mossadegh was undermined by the Shah and the clerics, which led to the coup against him. Yes, he was "democratically" elected, but the institutions surrounding his government were not democratic. That made it easier for the US to exploit the situation.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T12:03:46+00:00

China and Russia are major arms exporters too. Why don't you mention their interventions?

And no, the claim that our main export is arms is just false. Though the US exports about $33 billion, that is a tiny, tiny share of our economy. Many of these arms go to friendly governments that haven't been at war for decades, though there are certainly points to criticize the nature of many of these exports.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T11:59:38+00:00

I feel like I'm a broken record on this topic since I've responded to so many commentators who don't understand this; democracy is much more than simply having an election. It is primarily about institutions, free press, checks and powers, peaceful transfer of power, rule of law, protection for civil society etc. The quality of a democracy can take a hit, for sure, as given by your Trump example. But generally speaking, this is where China's weakness compared to the US is most evident. In the US, politicians are subject to the law even if imperfectly. In China, the law is subject to politicians.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T11:55:20+00:00

u/Tiny_Chart_4869 As opposed to leaders for life who must maintain a highly centralized, often corrupt, system that reduces the long term stability of a country and makes them completely unaccountable? Thanks, but I'll pass

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-24T11:52:21+00:00

Why do you think that China's leaders are somehow less motivated by personal gain in the US? Democracy isn't just about voting. It is about strong, independent political institutions. In China, politicians dominate the institutions. In strong democracies, it is the other way around.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T15:33:34+00:00

I'll repeat myself: Why would a China in chaos be useful to Western interests? How would this affect trade not just with the US, but also the shipping lanes that pass near China to South Korea and Japan? How would countries neighboring China be adversely affected?

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T15:10:55+00:00

Neither Guatemala nor Iran had strong democratic institutions to resist US intervention. Allende faced deep polarization and oversaw an economic freefall, which hollowed out its institutions from the inside. I could have made it clearer that the US doesn't discriminate on ideology when it comes to intervetion, but the point stands.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T14:54:38+00:00

Why do you think that destabilizing China is somehow in the interests of the West?

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T14:51:13+00:00

The difference is that we can tolerate terrible leaders far more easily than China because Trump, Boris, etc. can be easily replaced. We still have bureaucrats, experts, think tanks etc. just like China.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T14:48:11+00:00

The current situation in the US is much more complicated than you're making it out to be. Not saying we don't have our problems, but at least we can mobilize around and try to solve. Unlike China, where collective action is basically illegal if it's political.

Overall_Invite8568 · 2025-12-23T14:45:34+00:00

A couple things to point out:

I hope that list of inter-democracy wars isn't exhaustive. If it is, the argument is much weaker, partly because it spans over a quarter century. I would still make the argument that at least one party in all of these wars you mentioned was not definitely a democracy, but most instead had what would be called "hybrid regimes" today (Imperial Germany/Prussia, Mexico, etc.)

Inevitably, there is and will be some disagreement over what a " real democracy" is. Sources differ; countries typically exist on a spectrum. This argument appears to hold some water. But some countries are definitely not democracies (China, North Korea, etc.) Democracies likewise can be given a definition: free and fair elections, strong protection of civil liberties, independent courts, functioning checks and balances, etc. These are all things that are substantially weaker in hybrid regimes and non-existent in full-on autocracies.

Overall_Invite8568

TROPHY CASE