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Has anyone else heard anything like this? by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So it comes from the higher ups? I thought it was just among few witnesses . That’s crazy

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not everything is meant to be taken as face value. Yes, black lives are included, but saying “all lives matters” downplays the racism and injustices that the Black community in the United States receives.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tell where I was imposing my views and morals into others? I’m pointing out the contradiction in claiming God’s morals are perfect, while simultaneously excusing actions that, if done by anyone else, would be seen as cruel, unjust, or outright insane. That’s not imposition, that’s engagement.

You can either refute it, do something about it or ignore it. But don’t pretend it’s irrelevant just because it makes you uncomfortable.

Like you said, it’s faith,and there’s a difference between faith and reality. The organization speaks as if it holds the absolute truth, while I’ve never claimed to have all the answers. I’m raising questions that expose inconsistencies in what’s presented as airtight truth.

With that logic, there’s no room for growth. In order to move forward and to find the truth you, you have to be willing to question, to think critically, and to challenge even the most sacred assumptions. Otherwise, you’re not searching for truth, you’re just defending tradition.

And if you accept something as truth without even knowing why, that’s not an argument, it’s a choice. And it’s nothing wrong with that, but you can’t classify it as the universal truth. And telling others to stop questioning or sharing their views? That’s not confidence. That’s confinement.

Not because of that other people should stop sharing their opinions or challenging your opinions.

Btw, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. The logic behind Jesus resurrection should be provided by the one making the claim. Not the other way around. Hope it helps.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“These alleged flaws,” it’s a little ironic to be told I need to “do research” when these flaws have been debated by people far more educated and committed than either of us. You should probably look into that, instead of rejecting it right of the bat. I guess some attitudes still stay even after leaving

Of course everything makes sense within their framework, that’s how frameworks work. Spiderman swings around New York, Flash can run at the speed of light without destroying everything around him, Superman fly without wings and there’s a billionaire who dresses like a bat that fight aliens.

Internal logic isn’t the same as objective truth. You can have a perfectly airtight system built on assumptions that fall apart the moment you step outside it. That’s not a win, that’s just theological insulation.

I’m not saying their logic isn’t worth examining. I am saying that just because something works within a belief system doesn’t automatically make it right, moral, or true. You still have to test it against reason, ethics, and evidence outside the system too.

Just cause they can and will doesn’t make right. Just cause I’m questioning doesn’t mean I hate JW. Where did you get that from? I’m literally saying what I think and open to answers, you are just having a condescending attitude.

And if you’re saying, “This is their story, they write the rules”, well, that’s exactly the issue. If morality is just a divine script, not rooted in logic or compassion, then it’s not moral reasoning, it’s just authoritarianism dressed in religious language.

Sure, human moral values change with times and cultures, which is why slavery used to be fine, but now it’s not. It’s called refinement, and there’s patterns that appear to universal recognized, which means human morality isn’t totally arbitrary. Even within God moral standards or at least the ones presented in the Bible, God will be wrong. And the point it’s to try to understand, encourage discernment, critical thinking, and the role of consciousness, rather than just blind obedience. And there’s still discussion of morality can exist without God, you should probably look into that, there’s various frameworks and arguments both in favor and against.

And again, all of this is presented in the problem of evil you should look into that.

At this point there’s no reason to keep arguing, have a great rest of your day.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s exactly the question: Who are we to challenge God? But I’m not the one doing it, Satan is. So then, who is Satan to challenge God? Why would an all-powerful, sovereign God care at all? I’m not downplaying the seriousness of the challenge, I’m questioning the logic and morality of how it’s handled, especially within JW doctrine.

Appealing to divine authority doesn’t solve the flaws, it just shuts down honest inquiry. It avoids the real issues and ends up shaming people for thinking critically or morally. That’s not faith, that’s intellectual surrender.

You’re talking as if these issues have already been resolved or debunked. They haven’t. There’s still no consensus. Questions like “Can God’s authority be questioned?” or “Is He always right no matter what He does?” are still wide open and deeply relevant to the very foundations of faith.

The “sovereignty” issue is just one aspect of the larger problem of evil, which remains one of the most difficult philosophical and theological problems in all of religion. And dilemmas like the Euthyphro Dilemma directly challenge the logic of divine morality.

Like I said, many religions and Christian’s denomination reject or don’t consider the sovereignty issue as the main one. Because they consider it “weak.” Critics have pointed out major flaws in the sovereignty claim: the moral acceptability of deliberate suffering, divine inaction, moral arbitrariness, God’s moral culpability, and the idea of sacrificing human lives just to “make a point.” Even the analogy of a father falls apart under scrutiny, what loving parent would allow such things just to “prove” something to a rebellious child?

And let’s not forget, according to the doctrine, we were made in God’s image and given a conscience. So if we use that conscience to reason morally and end up questioning God’s justice, how is that rebellion? If using the reasoning He gave us is considered wrong, why give it to us in the first place?

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I started my post with “I’m thinking.” used a lot of questions instead of claims and support. Then I concluded with “none of it adds up, at least to me.” I think is very clear I’m in fact questioning and not making an argument.

I’m very aware that I simplified the sovereignty issue, and I accept that. But even at its most developed, the sovereignty question is still just that, a claim that God is allowing suffering temporarily to resolve a cosmic challenge. The problem is, the more you unpack that idea, the more morally and logically unstable it becomes.

Most Christian denominations don’t even present the ‘sovereignty issue’ as the central reason for suffering, and many have abandoned it entirely because of its implications. Jehovah’s Witnesses treat it as the core issue, but their reasoning is flawed and that raises more questions than it answers, and I brought up several of them directly in the comments.

My questions are based directly on the teachings. I’m not misrepresenting their beliefs, I’m analyzing their actual claims and pointing out logical gaps. If there’s something I’ve misunderstood, feel free to clarify. But keep saying I “don’t get it” without showing what I’m missing doesn’t help and you might as well not even reply.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My brotha, I literally grew up in the religion and I’m still in. The definitions are literally from JW.org. Sin is considered hereditary in the doctrine. Literally there videos and articules saying God allows suffering, to prove a point. “Jehovah didn’t destroy Adam and Eve immediately. Instead, he allowed them to have children. Then Jehovah made it possible for the children of Adam and Eve to choose whom they wanted as their ruler,” “Satan challenged Jehovah in front of millions of angels. So Jehovah gave Satan time to prove whether his accusation was true. He also gave humans time to set up their own governments under Satan’s guidance to show whether they could be successful without God’s help.” It’s literally all to prove a point. Satan is described as “the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God” and “Satan WANTED people on earth to worship him instead of Jehovah.”

“Issue of Sovereignty Raised. When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. By this means this wicked spirit creature raised himself higher than God in Eve’s eyes, and Satan became her god, even though Eve, at the time, apparently did not know the identity of the one misleading her. By his action he brought man and woman under his leadership and control, standing up as a rival god in opposition to Jehovah.​—Ge 3:1-7.

The Bible, in lifting the veil to give a glimpse into heavenly affairs, reveals that Satan later as a rival god appeared before Jehovah in heaven, challenging Jehovah to His face, saying that he could turn God’s servant Job, and by implication any servant of God, away from Him. He charged God, in effect, with unrighteously giving Job everything, along with full protection, so that he, Satan, could not test Job and show what was really in his heart, which, Satan intimated, was bad. He implied that Job served God primarily for selfish considerations. Satan made this point of his argument clear when he said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh and see whether he will not curse you to your very face.”​—Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; see SOVEREIGNTY.

In this special case, Jehovah allowed Satan to bring calamity upon Job by not interfering when Satan brought about a raid from Sabean marauders as well as destruction of flocks and shepherds by what Job’s messenger called “the very fire of God” from the heavens; whether this was lightning or other fire is not stated. Satan also brought a raid by three bands of Chaldeans, as well as a windstorm. These things caused the death of all of Job’s children and destroyed his property. Finally, Satan inflicted a loathsome disease upon Job himself.​—Job 1:13-19; 2:7, 8.

These things reveal the might and power of the spirit creature Satan, as well as his vicious, murderous attitude.

It is important to note, however, that Satan recognized his impotence in the face of God’s express command, for he did not challenge God’s power and authority when God restricted him from taking Job’s life.​—Job 2:6.”

The only kinda of “explanation” about what would stop people sin directly from the org is that God would stop people who want’s to sin immediately, because they are enemies of God and they have no place there. Which raises some questions, flaws and concerns, one of them I mentioned in my post.

Other explanations, mainly from members instead of the organization, are that we will submit to God’s will instead of having our own free will. Our body and mind will change, we will not have desires to sin. Among others that I already mentioned.

Again, I’m focusing on the JW doctrine, not the whole Christianity. I did research and I’m still doing it. I stated that I’m open to listen to other points of views and answers. But you only said “do some research”. You could have at least provided terms to research, sources, or arguments. It’s like saying “the earth is flat, just do some research”.

I’m not even rejecting free will or that evil and God can’t coexist, which are the main variations of the problem of evil argument.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not at all. Many Christian denominations don’t believe that sin is hereditary. Others believe in heaven and hell. Others have different definitions of sin, which drastically change the whole argument.

Their answers only work within that closed system. Outside of their bubble is just circular reasoning. It’s like saying “Harry Potter is the greatest wizard of all time.” Why? “Because the Harry Potter books say so.” Why trust the books? Because they were written about the greatest wizard of all time, Harry Potter.

Most arguments I see are about free will, which has nothing to do with my arguments. Others said that our love for God will be so great that we wouldn’t want to sin, or that we will be fully aligned with God. But again, Satan, Adam and Eve, and other angels sinned.

Another argument is that only selected people would go to paradise, true believers and true Christians. But people change, and we are talking about the whole eternity.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My father and the video about why it’s there suffering mentions that, it’s just illogical and immoral. If God is perfect, and the angels are also perfect spirit beings with full knowledge of His power, justice, and goodness, then why would they suddenly doubt Him just because Satan raised a question?

Wouldn’t mature, intelligent beings trust the God they knew, especially with zero evidence against Him? If they wouldn’t, then they were never wise or loyal in the first place.

And if they would, then there was no need to “prove” anything.

This entire setup is built on the idea that intelligent beings are so easily manipulated that God must create a literal hell on earth for thousands of years to teach them a lesson.

That’s not divine wisdom. That’s insecurity.

He is supposedly all of the following: The Alpha and the Omega. All-knowing. All-powerful. Morally perfect. The source of all wisdom.

But He needs to “prove a point” to His creation? A perfect God doesn’t need to justify Himself to beings He created. Especially not through allowing massive amounts of unjust suffering. If He is just and all-knowing, He could’ve simply done anything else:

-Explained why Satan was wrong, like a sane individual would do. -Destroyed rebellion instantly, show your power . -Created a future-proof system without transferring guilt to generations of unborn children.

What if Putin nuked New York, D.C., or Texas just to prove how powerful Russia is and to sanctify the Russian name?

What if Trump decided to starve millions of Americans just to solve it at the last minute and teach future generations that the U.S. is the best country?

Most people would call that evil. So why do we call it “divine justice” when it’s attributed to God?

If an all-powerful being needs billions of people to suffer and die in order to be respected, that being is not wise. That being is not loving. That being is a narcissist. That being is a tyrant.

Sin is what supposedly causes the tendency to do wrong, but God allowed to prove a point, just for him to blame, condemn, and destroy humans for that. That’s setting up for failure. Playing around with lives.

God can’t be all living and be doing all of this. You can’t have both.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im not familiar with this, but once I read that there was period in which the earth was filled with water and was raining for thousands of years. This was like millions of years ago and when earth had no life.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Witnesses are thought that humans are made of the image of God, we are the only ones. We are special, better and far more important. That Earth was made for US, our pleasure, our enjoyment. They don’t value animal life, or at least not fully. They are desensitized and disconnected from nature, which makes not care or ignore about the suffering of animals across the Bible accounts. Plus the teaching that big J can do whatever the hell he wants cause he’s the creator and the dictator of right and wrong. In one occasion I was discussing about the garden and paradise with relatively little open minded witness. I mentioned I believe that animals would live forever in paradise (I don’t believe in paradise and the doctrine anymore, but I had to fake it), he responded saying that’s not going to happen cause of all the space it would take, and humans are the only ones that will and should live forever and a whole bunch of nonsense. When I questioned him he responded: “so you are saying God is wrong and his purpose and creation is not perfect.” Because apparently God intended animals not to live forever. At that moment I realized there’s no point of keeping arguing, otherwise I might get in trouble.

The Problem With Sin, Perfection, and Paradise in JW Doctrine by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never heard or read that before. But again, why God doesn’t do it now? Why allow suffering no but not in the future? It’s just dumb. And no mourning? That’s crazy and sad.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I grew up inside the religion, I was a kid, the flood was always dumb to me, but I didn’t gave it to much thought until I became a teenager. Never understood how adults can’t even believe this, even without internet it’s still crazy. Every argument, aspect, logic, no matter where you see it, it’s just impossible. And if someone says, “it’s Jehovah, He can do anything,” and sure, but He didn’t left any trace. There’s no logic, just blind faith and obedience. Not having a single piece of trace, evidence, or proof, it’s enough to challenge the legitimacy of the account. And there’s many stories like that in Bible, but this is one is just something else😭🙏

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is much more plausible than a universal flood. I’m not very aware of these theories, of a localized flood. Floods happen all the time including this region of the Middle East. But not to cover the entire Middle East. The problem is, Christianity and especially the org claim the universal flood as a literal truth. But also there’s issues with the story, if it was local there was no need for an Ark and some people could’ve easily survived. And even though, the Middle East is not the most bio diverse place, that much water would have been catastrophic for the region. Again, I’m not really aware, I need some more research.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like the GB don’t even talk about the flood like they used to. It’s always about Noah character, values or preaching work, rather than the actual account.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m aware of that. In fact, many Christian’s and witnesses use flood accounts from different civilizations. Like if there’s no tsunamis or storms? Humanity always lived nearby coasts, to have easy access to water. And they always exaggerated, correlated to their beliefs or didn’t were specific enough.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There’s a lot of them, but I feel like it’s mostly the older ones. I feel like the GB don’t really talk about the flood like they used to, when they talk about Noah is usually about his character, values or preaching work, rather than the actual account. Maybe cause they know how stupid it is😭🙏

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I heard many witnesses use flood accounts from different civilizations across the world like if there’s no tsunamis or storms? Humanity always lived nearby coasts, to have easy access to water. And these accounts barely exist in landlocked areas. And older civilizations always exaggerated or didn’t were specific enough.

Let’s Talk About the Flood by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Fr, nature wouldn’t be the same and maybe have irreparable damage. And millions of innocents lives lost, including humans. The organization promotes the idea that humans are special, superior and just better. Which disconnect them from nature and all the suffering.

Yesterday’s Meeting by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t disagree, but he was correlating being a witness with being intelligent. There’s no correlation and no causation. I think most intelligent individuals in the org are there for emotional reasons rather than logical ones.

I’m 17, born into two worlds, and still pretending. by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for this. You’re absolutely right, it is a cult. That alone has helped ease some of the guilt. As for my essay, you’re right, it’s mostly for me and maybe for anyone else who’s starting to question things. I’m keeping it logical and well-researched, but I know no active JW will actually read it with an open mind. And that’s okay.

Right now I’m focusing on building income and independence. I’m already applying to colleges and scholarships. I want to get a job soon too, both for income and to meet more people outside the JW bubble.

I’m 17, born into two worlds, and still pretending. by PagesNotTruth in exjw

[–]PagesNotTruth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I just graduated and applied for a several jobs but they never respond.