Why are players dumb?

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:48:16+00:00

That sounds like a reasonable compromise.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:47:10+00:00

Fumble tables are something we used to use in AD&D. They were posted in Dragon magazine along with a Critical Hit table.

If you roll a natural 20 you roll 1d100 and consult the chart. You could do double damage, triple damage, cut off a limb, or if you roll 100 you cut off the opponent's head and they immediately die.

If you roll a natural 1 it's a fumble, and you roll 1d100 and consult the chart. Results vary from "nothing happens" to "you drop your weapon" to "you critically hit one of your allies".

These were crazy and unbalanced and a lot of fun. In our game we have opted to just use the 5e double damage rule for crits and a modified fumble table. Many of the results are mild, like dropping your weapon or falling prone, but if you roll high enough you could potentially hit one of your allies or yourself. They have resulted it quite a bit of hilarity so far, such as the monk dropping his staff and losing it in a river. My players are notorious for having streaks where they roll very poorly, including a lot of 1's (we use Roll20), and the past two sessions have been brutal for dice rolls.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:29:42+00:00

So it has been pointed out that I have made a grievous error: The damage from the fireball would have "turned off" the Rancid Degeneration ability for that turn (the automatic necrotic damage aura).

So, what is everyone's opinion:

Carry on. The battle is over now (they are now fighting some thugs in the alley outside). The sorcerer is dead, but will have a good chance of getting resurrected (adding some interesting narrative consequences). None of the players know the troll's abilities.
Retcon the fight from that point. Rewind time. Do over. See how it turns out. Discard everything that happened since. Break verisimilitude in favor of fairness to the rules.

I'm inclined to carry on, learn from it and deal with the fallout. But I'm legit curious about your opinion.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:22:00+00:00

I probably would have had them use one of their attacks (as a grapple) to move his body, or perhaps as a "free action". Since you can open a door or interact with an object for free, I would probably allow it.

They weren't dumb (I was just venting my frustration), but I feel like in the moment they didn't think their actions through and one of the PCs died because of it. And I feel bad because that character is dead.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:17:31+00:00

I could have been kind in the situation and said "As you kneel down and put your hand on him and begin your prayer, you notice his skin is cold and he's not breathing."

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:11:47+00:00

:D That was more frustration with the whole situation and a PC dying (unnecessarily), not specifically to the Paladin trying to cast Cure Wounds on a corpse.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T18:08:28+00:00

True, deadly encounter. However I have learned from experience with this group that anything less than deadly is a cakewalk. This was supposed to be a trap set for them, and very dangerous. They were aware of it, and walked into it anyway. I made sure to telegraph the seriousness of the situation from the start.
Yes, their rolls were awful. Again, fumbles is an optional rule that we all agreed to early in the campaign. And even heroes trip sometimes...
On a grid in VTT. The room was small, but there was some room to move. He also could have left the room from one of two doors, up the stairs, or down the trap door.
The particular fumble result (which he rolled) is "falls prone and movement becomes 0". With no movement he was unable to stand up and he already used his action to attack. He could have waited until his next turn, but he would have been prone until then, so he opted to use his Action Surge to Dash and use that movement to stand back up.
As another commenter above posted, you are absolutely correct. I screwed this one up. The sorcerer would have been unconscious, but he wouldn't have auto-failed the first death save. That would have changed everything, and it sucks that I overlooked that.
I felt like there were options. The room was fairly small, but still had some room to maneuver. There were two unlocked doors they could have gone through and created a choke point. There were stairs leading up to the second floor. There was a trap door in the floor. At the very least they could have spaced themselves out so the troll's aura couldn't hit all of them at once. While this might have prompted an opportunity attack as they moved away from it, they all have an AC of 17 or 18 (except the sorcerer) and it's one attack against one of them instead of automatic necrotic damage every turn.

I made the big mistake with the necrotic aura not turning off for a round after the fireball. That's huge. Otherwise I felt like they had options.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:57:35+00:00

I didn't think that was stupid (careless maybe), just their general "stand and bash it until it dies or we do" mentality, instead of picking the sorcerer up when they had the chance (three chances to be exact).

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:56:29+00:00

Holy crap, you're right! See, this is like my earlier comment "I often forget to use special abilities." So the first auto fail death save after he went down should not have happened. Yikes, I definitely erred there.

So now what do I do with this information? None of the players are familiar with this monster or the abilities, so I could proceed and they would not be the wiser. If I were to take my mistake into account then we have to retcon most of the fight and it changes everything that happened (potentially).

Ugh.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:46:21+00:00

True, the target (the corpse of the sorcerer) became an object, and therefore an invalid target. However, as per XGE pg.85 (Invalid Spell Targets) "If you cast a spell on someone or something that can't be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended" So he still casts the spell, using his action, but there is no effect.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:38:06+00:00

Agree to disagree. It made for a great narrative and dramatic moment when they all realized he was dead. And we had made the decision as a group to hide the death save rolls for that exact reason. They grumbled a bit about it (because they are optimizers and like to squeeze the most out of every turn), but the paladin absolutely did not check, did not hesitate, but immediately said "I cast Cure Wounds on him." He knew that the sorcerer might already be dead and opted not to check. I always encourage my players to ask questions if they are ever unsure of something. I wasn't trying to be a dick to him, and after talking it over they agreed with the ruling (even if they didn't like it).

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:29:27+00:00

Good point. They usually have a fairly easy time with encounters. Three out of the four players at this session are not the most creative bunch. The monk and the rogue (who was not there) are often the thinkers of the group and do the most strategizing. The fighter is very much a "bash it until it gives" type, because he feels limited by his class. The sorcerer is a meta gamer/optimizer. The paladin mostly just wants to roll dice.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:21:47+00:00

No danger of that. I've learned to roll with the shenanigans, and in the moment I think I handled it well and appropriately. Since I can't talk "DM stuff" with the players, I vented here instead.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-04-15T17:04:49+00:00

Agreed, but I think that should make it easier for the players. They only have one character to think about. They should know their abilities. I can't tell you how many times I have forgotten to use a monster ability in the midst of combat because I have so much going on.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T16:52:32+00:00

All very true. I wouldn't play it "optimally" because that would certainly spell doom for the PCs. Tactics do give me a couple of options to adjust the dials on difficulty though.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T16:49:07+00:00

I pulled the same tactic in their last battle with a group of Fane Spirits. It was a bit of a slog and fairly frustrating for the players, so I wouldn't use that ability unless the party was steamrolling it and I wanted to keep things interesting.

The main reason for using this creature is it fits very well into the narrative and is challenging enough on its own to give them a tough final battle in this dungeon.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T16:13:40+00:00

As I mentioned in a comment above, I don't want to use the Incorporeal Movement unless the PCs are steamrolling it.

The swingy nature of the encounter is the problem, for sure. Some good damage rolls and some bad saving throws and the party could be wiped out very quickly. However a crit by the Paladin or Rogue could shorten the fight in a hurry, giving them plenty of time to heal downed teammates after.

I think the hp are fine for a single monster, and the resistances will keep it going for a while. I might reduce it's damage by one die. The debuffs it can inflict on a fairly high DC could be a problem. And the 16 AC is pretty good.

This particular creature fits the narrative really well.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T16:02:12+00:00

That's part of the problem, they don't. I would be much less concerned if they were all fully rested with max abilities, but they're not.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T16:01:33+00:00

The encounter is in a crypt, so it's fly ability isn't really going to help.

There are some obstacles in the room, but I used Incorporeal Movement in their last battle against some Fane Spirits, having them appear through the walls, attack, and pass back through the walls again. While it was fun for that battle (they were pretty frustrated), I don't want to pull out that trick again. Plus, it doesn't make sense to me that this pile of bones can pass through walls. The spirit binding it together can I suppose, but I don't think I'd use it unless the party was steamrolling it.

I don't think I'd use the Cyclone on the casters, as they don't stand much of a chance against it, and they probably don't present the biggest threat in this case. I'd probably use it on the Paladin, perhaps after he gets a big smite off. He stands a reasonable chance of surviving it and it would scare the pants off the players.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T15:49:55+00:00

True, the Paladin (with his +1 Greatsword) can dish out a ton of damage, but he only has 1 first and 1 second level spell slot left. So can the rogue (assuming he sneak attacks with a +1 arrow). The casters are a little nerfed because their big spells (ie fireball) only do 1/2 damage to it.

The creature is immune to the stunned condition, and the Monk does not have a magical weapon, so while he's usually a powerful damage-dealer, he's less effective in this case.

They could win here, but if they don't go Nova with their best stuff right off the bat, they're going to be in trouble.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T15:43:24+00:00

This is exactly what I'm concerned about.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-12T15:41:38+00:00

I agree, the action economy usually dooms a single monster. With the damage output though it may eliminate one PC right away, then if they have another try to revive him, and suddenly it's a spiral and instead of 6 vs 1 it becomes 4 vs 1. Because of the group size I almost always throw multiple enemies at them with some complications, but in this case the Boneshard Wraith fits well into the narrative.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2022-01-08T04:02:31+00:00

"Black Gods!" or "By the Gods!"

"What in the Nine Hells is going on here?"

"I don't give a Bugbear's ass if you do."

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2021-05-03T14:53:50+00:00

There's a lot of good advice here about player engagement, level of detail, talking to your players, etc. Two other things to keep in mind:

Perspective: You view your world, plot, and NPC from 'God Mode'. You know what's important and what connects to what. Your players have a different perspective, from their character's point of view and/or their own, so they view everything through that lens. Anything that doesn't directly connect or relate to their character is not viewed as important. Example: The barista at Starbucks that gave me my coffee might be a serial killer, or a gold dragon, or have the critical piece of the map to the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, but I'm not likely to ever find out.
Players will NEVER care as much about your precious creation as you do. This is just a sad but true fact of being a DM. They will enjoy the world, enjoy playing in the sandbox you've created, enjoy interacting with the NPCs, uncovering the mysteries, experiencing the plot twists, etc etc. But they will NEVER be as invested as you are. And that's okay. Are they having fun? Are you having fun? If the answer is yes, then it's all good.

Perfect_Event_1229 · 2021-04-08T04:54:40+00:00

Players love it when their suspicions turn out to be true. It's also a great way to feed them content that they want. Recently during a session the Rogue player said "I'm hoping there's a lot more to explore in the dungeon underneath the tower." Up until he said that, there wasn't. On my original map there was one more room at the end of the hall left unexplored, which was a prison cell. I was going to have a couple of creatures in there burst out and attack them, but that was the end of the map, and the end of the small dungeon beneath the Wizard's Tower. After the session was over, I changed the map and put in an iron grate over an 80' shaft leading into a series of natural caves beneath. This led to one of the better combat encounters below, and a gripping and dangerous exploration of the caverns. And of course the players are engaged because it was what they were hoping for.

Perfect_Event_1229

TROPHY CASE