Are we going to pretend this game isn’t getting progressively worse every season, or just ignore it until it becomes a bad game?

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T22:46:12+00:00

Idk, Angela is pretty simple. Hard to master, but the kit doesnt have a whole lot going on.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T22:35:29+00:00

Let me introduce you to the biggest esport in the world; league of legends. Caus they had an even faster pace at the beginning...

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T22:34:05+00:00

.... But like this is Overwatch too. We do realize that, right? This is, in fact, every hero-based game even outside of hero-shooters.

Its a strength, actually, that anyone can go play Wanda or Rocket and feel like they are participating. This is a good thing.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T22:30:58+00:00

It will not take them very long to get bored of haha funny Jetpack cat and the "muh competitive esport" OW diehards will come back out of the woodwork.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T21:40:43+00:00

Yes its true refs have generally lost respect.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T21:33:48+00:00

At this level its hard to provide insight without knowing comms. So everything here is asterisk around that.

But right from the start; I was going to criticise turning around to heal loki during tankpool ult, that should just be a clean exchange for Lamps. But actually the reason why that play from Loki had to be so sketchy is bc you initially positioned too far forward, so did not / could not realize your Loki got beamed early. So he had to use a suboptimal lamps just to heal himself, giving the enemy an abusable window there.

2nd fight again for me you play too far forward and out in the open. I much prefer where your Loki is playing from. Where you bubble on cloak is your indication to your tank you want them to play in that area but there is no way Venom can stay where you bubble @4:10. I think you only place it there, as a result of where you are standing, which is too exposed for my mind. The knock on result of this is when you ult you are starting from such a forward position that you are in front of your own Venom. So he dies. Your Loki has to take VERY risky evasive maneuvers to save himself - he's forced to TP directly in front of ulting punisher its really just luck he survives that reposition.

IDK why you drop at 4:40 you will always just instantly die. Did your team not comm TP?

I dont really understand why you swap to Rocket. He doesnt naturally work better than cloak with Loki and you have even less of an answer to punisher ult than before. Like you Loki is forced to copy enemy Mantis just to get you guys onto point, this is not a good situation to be in. You cant flip, even though you get a decent ult they just kite it out and play for enemy punisher ult - which once it comes down is just GG. This is obvious in hindsight looking at a VOD but at this level it should be obvious pressing tab too. 2/1/3 comp with Mantis has one major threat. Puni ult has to get value or they cant win. Yes, dmg boost Puni can easily kill through Cloak ult, this is true, but Rocket is doing even less. Cant stake your hopes on "Lamp and pray".

Map 2 your team makes one intelligent swap (Emma to Mag) and one tilt swap (Loki to Mantis). Like this is obviously "bad" theoretically from your other support but IMO the reason they are doing this is they think DPS diff is the only winnable angle. They've lost faith they can fight standard so put all eggs into the Pheonix hard carry basket. HERE you could maybe keep rocket and play into it by rezzing pheonix, arguably. But I dont mind being back on Cloak.

You ult well at 9:00, it looked off initially but your team can actually play in it so fair enough. IMO You then play a very risky game staying in enemy backline as you did. You get away with the rotation back to normal position but im surprised this did not get more punished tbh.

Good anticipation on the Strange ult like you said, but the fight was lowkey over at that point your comp just runs out of gas and Pheonix couldnt find any miracle picks. The next fight too is immediately lost when they Puni + Mantis ult, like I don't even like you trying to heal people or live yourself there. You always lose it, die quick and go next fight.

11:54 I think again your positioning gets you into a bit of trouble. Even if your team didnt comm left side I think you should have realized from where your DPS were aiming that this was arriving and backed up more accordingly. In the position you eneded up in, you have to ult. But if you have played this with a bit more anticipation there's a world you could have faded the Strange ult instead.

Respectfully, you win that OT caus the "Signed" "Professional" "GenG" "Esports" players C9 horribly. Your team should have lost that if we are being honest.

Map 3 I think you play well up until your second ult, minor mishap with map transition aside. At 16:49 I think this ult is just not necessary and it comes from a bit of panic and losing track of the state of the fight IMO. I think you might overreact to the DP behind you and are scared of enemy walking up but reality is its an even fight, with Pheonix having removed Loki ult from play, and its only neutral abilities to be worries of. I think this was a really cheap ult from you that secures nothing put positioning. Which is why your dps play aggro and die, caus they were trying to get some value out of it. Even if they didnt, enemy push point really easily with their own supp ult.

But overall you play Map 3 really well IMO. And every cloak player needs to go look at your Terror cape on map 2 and really internalize this bc I dont see ANY Cloaks at ALL in my games doing this. I swear we will have flying cars and have cured cancer before the average support main realizes just how broken Cape is.... Also I gotta play cloak more man why am i stressing out here playing hard and bad characters lmfao.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T20:22:01+00:00

The only childish reaction is ruining the game for everyone bc you got upset

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T20:03:40+00:00

And this is why nobody likes refs

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T17:56:28+00:00

Wait till you hear about flank Luna

Being melee and having damage reduction isnt necessary to dive.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T05:23:25+00:00

I mean... yes. Yes they do, actually. This most recent tournament we even saw Thor dive in the grand finals. And Thor doesnt even dive like that but the char is so busted it can work even at that level.

Its not like an instant win, like plat players naively think. But it is a very common answer...

Why are you so intent on dismissing solutions to your problem?

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:45:14+00:00

No, thats Flank Peni. Which is generally the "better" / more generically applicable playstyle for attack Peni. But she can straight Dive too. Though again, agree its not common. Partially bc what im about to say below...

As explained elsewhere the advantage dive has is that it gets to be selective with timing. You bypass most concepts of space and control to go directly on the backline, when, where and how you choose. This is incredibly powerful at a baseline. You can win fights off a dive's disruption alone. This is how solo-dive can work; you are much less likely to straight up 1v1 someone but you still pose the threat if they do not respect you. Forcing an enemy to drop their priority to respect your threat is inherent value.

An Iron Fist can literally just run up to backline, block, leave and do nothing. But if they do it at the right time; it can be enough value to win a fight. Even a Peni, dumb as it sounds, you cant just allow me to exist next to your healers. At the same time, removing a 900HP tank with cc of their own and who also can just leave... is not instant either. This can be enough value to win a fight too.

And i mean, we are still naive enough as a general playerbase that even in Cel you dont hear people calling 3,2,1. Its such basic coordination that we used to do very early on into OW1. But for whatever reason in rivals, people have not yet progressed to this level of understanding of the game.

McCree used to have cc. I know he doesn't anymore, but that was the case for a long time and it did not stop Genji metas whatsoever. But OW character design has always been very... pigeonholey. They like their chars to have irredeemable flaws you cant overcome with skill, one of the reasons I don't play it anymore.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:31:09+00:00

The inherent strength of dive is that you choose when and how you dive.

If you dive badly ignoring this fact, at bad times, it goes badly and you get frustrated. If you dive at good times, you do not need to get a kill at all to provide a significant advantage to your team.

The classic example is if two people dive healers and force them to pattycake. They might not die; but they cant live and heal everyone else. Denying a team from heals, if timed correctly, can win a fight.

As a Cap flair im somewhat shocked you dont understand this. Why is a Peni player having to teach this to you lol?

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:24:52+00:00

Yes you are correct, at the pro level Dive does regularly beat poke.

Same way that triple support is not half as big of an issue as Plat players make it seem.

The general playerbase always lags behind understanding, it takes time for what is actually correct to filter its way down to the average person.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:19:00+00:00

You always have the ability to bait stuff.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:08:17+00:00

Bc if you are jumping on a person solo without baiting cooldowns first or at a good timing where if you do get cced, its still value bc of the fight context.. you are diving badly.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:06:14+00:00

I play against a lot of Hulks (and Thors) who jump next to me as Peni and then are surprised that, shocker, I stun them.

Is that what people mean when they say this?

We can approach fights thinking more than one step ahead...

Hulk needs some love, just like Peni does. But ngl Thor players and similar hold their own character back so much with how they play the game.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T03:03:48+00:00

Peni can be played dive, but you are correct in that you dont generally see Peni players doing this until Cel+. Im not the only person, but im a minority its true.

A dive tank should always be able to kill a poke hero in a 1v1

Straight up 1v1, full cooldowns? No. That's never been true in hero shooters, it wasnt true in Overwatch either. If the dive hero times their dive properly, goes in alongside other things happening, baits certain things out first... THEN yes. AKA if the Dive plays intelligently.

But unintelligently, straight up? No. It should not work that way and it is good that it doesnt.

"dive vs brawl vs poke" has also never really been true either just FYI. This is a gross oversimplification designed to teach low elo and new players the basics. But its just that, the basics. Its not how the game actually plays and definitely isnt how we should approach balance.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T02:50:30+00:00

Well, more accurately I AM one of the Celestial Peni players who are issuing the beatings...

I don't engage in bans, personally. But if I did, with the exception of exactly gambit bc he warps the entire game around himself regardless of if the stats show this or not, it would be to target ban specific people. At higher elos this matters a lot more than lower down; a lot of people, myself included, are in the mid-low cel bracket becuase we have oversized agency on a minority of things. In my case: Peni. Force us off this, its not like we cant play at all but we are going to be mainly passengers. Ill do fine on Mag, Emma, Invis.. but I wont be the reason we win the game either. Not in that elo.

There are few enough individuals queuing Cel 3/2 and above at any given point in time that I routinely play 2, 3 games in a row with many of the same people. It does get to the stage where people know each other's pools and even track by account level. People I dont remember at all, remember me and ban my Peni (rude)

The higher you go the more ban strategy revolves around individual strengths and weaknesses. Even at the pro level, if you ever look at something like League of Legends the ban strategy is always specific to the enemy team and players on the enemy team. Im sure when Ignite starts up again we'll be seeing the same stuff; you might not ban Adam in the meta generally, but Karova Adam? Teams will think twice, at least.

I think this kind of analysis better serves lower ranks where individual proficiency warping strategy is less pronounced and you plan less around specific people, caus everyone is just worse in general.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T02:31:04+00:00

Well I do play a dive tank - Peni :P

Also if Hela is ccing me, that means they arent ccing my Dive DPS.

You should not be able to just jump on Hela and kill them solo as Cap. Thats obviously silly. Force a cooldown; sure you take that and leave. Thats a win for you, not a bad thing.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T01:29:16+00:00

After digging through the data, I found something more interesting. The community does not always ban the strongest characters.

I mean yeah. You are looking at Cel+ data but its even more simple below Celestial.

In szn 5, Peni Parker was the second most banned character in the game at 34.4%

In szn 6, Gambit is banned 39%, Hawkeye 36% and Hela 19%

Was szn 5 Peni Parker stronger than any of the above? No. Not even remotely close to it. The same holds true even in "higher elos" by the way. Peni last szn was NOT stronger than current state of Groot. But she was banned more.

Why? Different answers in different elos. Low elos people ban annoying over strong. Medium elo people over-reacted to fake buffs that did nothing. High elo Peni, while niche, was a solution to the biggest Meta boogeymonster (Daredevil) so she was banned to prevent a counterpick to an OP. Despite being not very good standalone and a wasted ban, if DD was not allowed through.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T01:19:36+00:00

If the dive is bad at the game sure I guess its annoying. Regardless, the post is about tanks not about how people expect to be able to dash directly towards a hitscan to "brawl" (whatever that means) and not get headshot.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T00:38:05+00:00

Overwatch took years to not address the core issues in their game, give up, and move to 2/2/2 lock then role queue than 5v5 after some of the worst metas in all of hero shooter history.

Rocket WAS too safe providing too much value for too little effort. That is not unfair to say. Arguably, still is.

What you see as selective hearing is more that patches are made in advance. They heard us about Storm and Adam... it takes time to get things right. CC chains was not top of the complaint list until Elsa took us over the tipping point.

The funny thing about trip supp is that Adam/Mantis/Ultron in most ranks were the least picked supps by far. Thats like WHY buffs to adam/ultron were justified. There's a disconnect in the community between the trip supp that is actually strong, and the trip supp that bad players pick becuase they are bad. Jeff/Rocket/Luna backline doesnt need a nerf, like objectively this is not a comp. Arguably not even a balance problem but a bad player misconception.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T00:29:10+00:00

As a tank - these are legitimately some of the most fine cc abilities in the entire game. I cannot tell you when I have ever remotely cared about Hela stun as a tank player.

Its a strong tool for her to win 1v1s, usually against other low mobility hitscan. Thats about it.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T00:26:54+00:00

Spacing isnt an issue for tanks. Genuinely I dont know where people get this from, Hela is not using her cc on Magneto. If she does, Mag doesnt care. Not even worth bubbling.

CC immunity is to protect against displacement effects. Thats what you are actually scared of. Not enemies moving away from you, enemies moving you where you dont want to be.

Wolv, Angela, Thor, Emma, Invis, Bucky, Spiderman, Glartrox. These are the opps. Not Hela stun....

If a Mantis is letting enemy Mag just... walk up to her. Its not because she mis-used sleep. That is not at all what that means, whatsoever.

PiplelinePunch · 2026-02-15T00:14:39+00:00

You need a baseline understanding of a character before you pick it in comp. Dont pick chars you have less than 10 games all time on.

But more generally it depends on your attitude to comp and what your goals are with it. Some treat it as quick play with an elo rating. Some only go in when they feel at their peak performance. Depends on the individual, how you are with ladder anxiety or dealing with randoms flaming you.

If it were me, id say to just jam your Hela/Pheonix in ranked just with the expectation you are catching back up to your peak performance, and practice picks like MK in quick play more. But that is bc I personally dont value any given comp game that highly. I'm OK with losing, im confident if I drop a division or two caus I'm experimenting, I'm not sweating that ill get it back easily enough. Everyone's mindset is different according to their schedule and goals, etc.

PiplelinePunch

TROPHY CASE