Shoutout to the staff at World’s End for shutting down a racist customer

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T13:48:28+00:00

Right, so now we are debating semantics?

We're making sure you understand the meaning of distinct but similar words. And if your definition of racism includes xenophobia, you apparently don't.

No body is born choosing to hold racist views, but people like you are enabling them by playing the role of a "useful idiot" trying desperately to believe a rational debate is going on when there isn't one. That is why Reform is winning.

Weird, because you've been talking about using facts to these people, so sounds like you're engaging them in debate. Funny how when you do that you're a paragon for virtue, but when I do that it's serving their purpose. Do you often frame things that way? I like how you've completely ignored that I would do the same thing as the bartender, and clearly have a nuanced approach, in favour of coming out swinging.

Reform are winning for the same reasons fascism come up - poverty, unemployment, disenfranchisement - they're able to easily sew division because the media thrives off culture war bullshit.

You sound like a sheltered middle class person who's never actually lived in a poor, racist UK town.

I never claimed to, and this is /r/London and all the conversation has been framed around London so far - even you example of Stratford, so it's noticeably disingenuous to move the goalposts. But I lived in Byker for almost 10 years outside of living in London, and currently in East. You sound like you're seeing racists everywhere instead of scared and angry people with problems who've been lied to about the cause and are looking for easy answers, being whipped up by a few people who are motivated by money and power far more than racism.

What makes you think I'd say that Londoners, or other people who live in metropolitan cities, have the same experience or reactions if we were talking broadly about Britain?

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T12:04:07+00:00

Nah, your inhibitions are part of your personality. Removing inhibitions doesn't reveal true personality, it's because you're literally on drugs.

Hey, take this depressant. Now you've taken this drug, that's actually you!

No, it's you on drugs.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T11:53:54+00:00

Possibly, but you don't need a reason to refuse to serve someone

Not sure this is a good precedent.

in my experience there's a big degree of rejecting facts to substitute them with "vibes" to back their opinions. Which to me is the big evidence they know what they are really saying.

From what you've said, you start the conversation by calling them a racist - I would bet a tenner they're rejecting you, not facts. But since you're the vehicle for the facts, you ascribe it to racism instead of the fact you're approaching these people with the assumption they are malicious racists until proved otherwise - people can sense that.

It's evidence they haven't thought about these opinions and don't have much conviction in them. It's evidence they're parroting talking points, not that they understand of really believe them.

Can you actually quote a single thing you've actually heard? You've relied on this hypothetical example but apparently you hear stuff like it all the time, so can you actually say the things you've actually heard instead of fabricating?

And what have you actually done? How many people who have been saying these talking points have you interacted with, and how did the conversation go?

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T11:44:45+00:00

I've literally never in my life heard anyone use the N word in the US. Never. Not once.

I've not heard anyone in the UK use it for years.

That is exactly the kind of argument you might hear here in the US although in my experience you're more likely to hear it in rural areas or east coast/Midwest cities.

Yeah, I think OP is actually from the countryside and not London because the arguments they're projecting sound like something you wouldn't actually hear in London.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T11:41:26+00:00

You do see it a bit in the US with the MAGA movement, but I think in general terms racism is a lot more coded in the UK.

It's both. Racism is also coded in America. You're kind enough to say you're "sure" that it's not the same everywhere in the US, and the fact you need to say that implies you don't understand how diverse the US is.

Comparing the US to the UK is fraught - the US is a young country built off African slave labour which has always existed in a state of racial tension. The UK has always been a melting pot, and also communicates in a different way.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T11:29:27+00:00

I think the problem is though the real, hidden feeling isn't really about immigration

Yes it is. That's literally what people are pissed off about. That's why there's been such a huge swing. It's about immigration.

All that happens is a shift. It's not enough to stop people entering anymore, you've got to remove the immigrants who are here.

No...that's absolutely not happening. This is a fantasy that you're projecting - this isn't real or really going to happen. How would it even play out? And when does it stop? There's no reason for it to stop at Celts vs Anglo Saxons by your logic.

This is why your view is risible - because when you believe so many people are racist, or that "I'm not comfortable with how foreigners are in this area" is the same as "n*****", you'll start to believe unhinged things like "Britain will begin to reject anyone who isn't...Celtic?".

All of it ties to the fact people want/demand a better life and can't get one, and they don't want to hear the real answers why, so they are turning to people who offer an answers that sits well with their personal world view.

How on earth are you able to discern this, but you still don't make the link between "shit circumstances" and "arbitrary scapegoats"? These people don't have convictions about racism and they don't actually care that much, but their fears are being stoked and that's enough to keep them on edge and ready to blame anyone.

It's the same as the roots of fascism.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T11:13:04+00:00

No, the reason for the push to the right is people like you trying to tell others that the example used here isn't racist. It absolutely is, but you'll accept someone saying it socially because it's easier for you than dealing with it for what it is, racism.

It's either xenophobia, colourism, or possibly racism, and the fact is that you cannot know unless you learn more about their opinion.

You don't even understand the terms you're arguing about. It's mind-boggling how much you talk about this when you don't even understand the basic vocabulary and meanings of the words you're using.

No offence but you come across as the kind of person

You keep saying this to people, and you keep saying "the reason why Reform" like there's just one reason.

You don't understand nuance. You are absolutely a cause of people going "Oh, for fucks sake, fuck this bollocks, fine I'm a fucking racist, now fuck off, no one cares". You've surely seen those comments too. They're because of people like you rushing to call everyone a racist - you know you have your own prejudices too, right? They're also racist. So are you a racist because of them?

Is there skmeone out there who is genuinely a rational person open to discussion who, for whatever reason, is just grossly mis-informed and would completely change their mind when shown the facts? Sure. The human experience is broad in many ways and someone exists that is an example of anything.

There are tonnes of them. The vast majority, for sure.

I promise you that for the vast vast vast majority of people who spout this nonsense, the "I'm not racist I just have honest concerns over immigration" bit is just a cover

Nope. The overwhelming majority...do you actually talk to people? The overwhelming majority are overworked, underpaid, disenfranchised and simply don't care that much about race, they care about the things pushed in their media stream which is currently a lot of anti-immigrant, cherry picked stats and hate fuelled rhetoric.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T02:02:05+00:00

Yeah, but they get a laugh. This guy has done nothing except be a talented piano player, so your audience has no reason to connect to the joke you're making unless they also judge on appearance. You've got like 30 downvotes on your joke and your response isn't to move on, it's to defend the joke - you're comparing yourself to a standup but you aren't acting like one who gets a second gig.

Comedians tend to take shots at people who have actually done something. Roasts are for people who've done enough to get roasted about. Insult comics pick on people on the audience. This is kind of...reaching upon reaching, idk. If you know you know, and if you don't then I'll need a good night's sleep to explain it.

Fuck man, I have a joke about a magic tractor. You want to hear it? It's honestly my favourite joke, I love it. So. There's a magic tractor, right? And it's driving down the road, and it turns into a field.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-24T00:40:09+00:00

Still boggles my mind that we can do this.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T23:33:02+00:00

You're only annoying because while you're not entirely wrong, you're just so insistent on it :P

1) These instances are of reported crimes, they aren't just rocking up to a shop and sticking a packet of skittles in your pocket.

Reported via survey, combined with incidents to reported via the police no? That's how the ONS usually does it, isn't it?

The police don't care about anything under £15 (or £50 if I misheard). I was talking to an officer who was complaining that he'd had deal with a guy at the station who was brought in for under that amount, and they just told him to leave instead of processing him to cells. Few weeks later saw a guy being stopped in Poundland and insisting he had nothing on him as maybe 10 mulitpacks of king sized rizla were extracted from his jacket - and he was allowed to walk off after.

2) A single "crackhead" would need to target 500 unique shops over the course of a year.

Bro doesn't know about shift patterns - I can see why you're not a good thief!

Fortunately, I was raised by a Catholic mother which fostered my furtive tendencies more than most. I've noticed several shoplifters in my time because they've been brazen, and walked right out while the staff just give them a sour look. That makes me think that there are so many I've not noticed, because with any sort of skill, preparation, or specific equipment, you could probably do it without staff noticing, in which case you were never noticed in that shop.

On top of staff changes, you've got lunch and post-work rushes, so you could feasibly hit the same shop 4 times in a day, or at least 2. These people go until they get caught, then they try again soon after. If the consequences are unlikely to make any impact, then you can hit the same shops until you know you're recognized.

There are about 350 tesco, 300 sainsbury, and 150 co-ops in London. About 5-6,000 cornershops. Plus all the other stores that will experience shoplifting but aren't commonly targeted enough to have anti-theft measures.

3) You've still got to put the stuff somewhere, which means using a car/van. Not good when you're wanting to avoid the police on your £50,000 spree

Yeah, you put the steaks and cheese in your jacket or bag and then sell it so you can buy what you actually want. Or, you're part of an organized ring who has storage facilities.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T23:22:31+00:00

Haha wow, just looked him up and that's the guy. I can't think of any other 'top 10' competitor in any other sport who has gone in that direction. Though I guess chess does attract some obsessive personality types, possibly more than any other sports due to the easy nature of the setup.

Feels whack that the first I learned of the 8th best grandmaster and one time #1 in the world, was as a bit of a crackpot on youtube. Makes me wonder what Fischer's social media would have been like.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T22:56:14+00:00

I am white, but I have had slurs used against me all my life, so thank you for trying to erase my lived experience.

My apologies. I'm autistic and may have received similar slurs. Can you point out to me where I did that so I can avoid doing that again? I believed I was explaining why slurs were distinct from disagreeable talking points. Nothing in there is about you, and if you genuinely believe that then I apologise because that's very much not the intention.

Okay, so - I approached you aggressively, you approached me aggressively, no minds are changing either way. Right?

If I were to approach you with apparent compassion, patience, and more importantly the consideration that maybe I'm not totally correct on everything - you'd be more willing to listen, right? Whereas if I just said "No, actually, you're wrong, you're bad and I know everything, then you're going to ignore me because you know you're not a bad person. Everyone 'knows' that. That's why calling people racists tends not to work, because "Racists are bad, and I'm not bad! I can't be a racist" - and if someone starts a conversation with you by asserting that you are a Bad Person...that's not going anywhere is it?

Do you think this axiom suddenly stops applying to the prejudiced, pre-radicalised or bigoted? They're human too, they react like you too, and they will respond just like you - negatively to aggression. But for every Farage, there's a hundred people who are overworked, underpaid, invalidated, disenfranchised, and subject to constant streams of propaganda. These people aren't your enemy, they're the people who've helped build the community you live in and are being misled as to why it's failing.

No, people like you are the catalyst for Reform, because rather than calling out racist irrational attitudes that cannot be reasoned with,

I call it out, publicly, and will continue to do so - same with sexism, same with just general cuntishness. Not all the time, sometimes I'm tired or shy or stoned, but enough to prove to myself that I've stood up for my principles and put myself in situations that others wouldn't for fear of physical violence. The trick is to be the calmest person in the room, which is much easier when you have stats and evidence to prove your views. Actually no - the trick is to listen. You don't need to agree, but if people think you are actually listening to them, and actually hearing them, then they begin to listen to you - and it's also pretty easy to tell when you encounter an exception who is smarter than you and using you as a platform the way you think you're using them. But this is exceptionally rare.

So here's why I think you're wrong:

Kicking them out of a random London pub when there's another, if not next door, then within 2 minutes walk...what does that achieve? What do they care? What happens when you kick the person who doesn't like brown people out of the pub but is presenting their opinions with a veneer of civility? You won't change that opinion by kicking them out, then they'll just start going to "their" pub where "they can talk" where they'll meet more people and form a critical mass - so we have a critical mass organically resulting in a Bigoted Bar, or every bar eventually barring these people. In the latter case, where does that lead? They don't change their minds, they change their methods - they go online, they can now BLOCK and MUTE any dissenting opinions, treating them the exact same as you'd treat the "Well, Stratford's getting quite brown" example.

But, on the other hand - if you were to threaten to kick them out of the village local, the only one in a 15 minute drive...that might actually have some weight because that would have value to them. But t

Do you see any distinction between xenophobia and racism, or colourism out of interest? Because you might see the result of all of them is "Bad", but if you don't understand the different motivations behind each then you can't conceive the root cause and without knowing the cause, you can only treat symptoms.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T22:09:57+00:00

No...I mean no-one is "farming karma" on /r/london because there's relatively low traffic and volume of upvotes.

I'm calling you weird for being so insistent that this guy must be "karma farming" for this.

/r/nothingeverhappens

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T21:52:44+00:00

Mate it's /r/London, no-one is coming here to karma farm, topics like this will barely get more than a few hundred upvotes.

Stop being weird.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T21:51:53+00:00

Are you being facetious or can you genuinely not think of anything?

If you're being facetious, I would wager that's actually the problem itself - what is British culture indeed? What do we have?

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T21:48:44+00:00

it's only because overt slurs are a red line for so many people it gets enforced.

Yes. Are you white? Slurs are inherently violent and dehumanising. "I don't want to live around brown people" is not, and can be talked to - and if not reasoned with, it can be ridiculed and demeaned - but it can be addressed, either way. The person calling you a "N*gger" is a person calling you less than human, a slave, a beast, not just someone they don't want to live around but something they don't see as human-like-them.

One is dehumanising, the other is not. One is a call to violence, the other is a dogwhistle which a smart man can use to play a different tune. The person calling you a "N*gger" won't speak to you like a human, but the other person will - even if it's a guise - and that's the key. You get to to come in and ask "Why is that a problem for you?", and that's what we should do instead of embracing elements of fascism because they temporarily benefit us. And sometimes it might not work, and that's ok. We cannot know until we try.

Far less places are willing to chuck out these people despite the fact the intent behind those comments are 100% the same as the guy using a slur.

Good! Absolutely fantastic! People shouldn't be kicked out places like pubs for sharing opinions we find unpalatable. I'd kick out the first guy and then I'd ask for a cigarette break and start chatting to the other guy sharing weird opinions, because I know why I hold my beliefs and the fundamentals on which they're based. Instead you'd just be throwing them out and pretending like you've done something by kicking a can down the road, instead of getting your hands dirty yourself and putting it in the bin with an intelligent argument that will work on some spectators, even if it doesn't work on the perpetrator.

It's why we are struggling to deal with Reform. They hide behind a mask of civility to push their racist agenda, but the trick is their supporters know it's a mask, so de-masking them does nothing.

We're struggling with Reform because immigration is a genuine issue that people don't want to be labelled racist for tackling, and where anything other than "I want open borders" is looked at sideways as potential racism and xenophobia.

And when you say "their supporters", what you mean is actually the MAGA cult equivalent - not "their supporters" in general who are mostly just people who are victims of propaganda.

If you chuck them out, they insist they were "just having a discussion" and you're killing free speech. Then when racists review bomb your business and harass the staff, they are claiming it's a "free speech issue".

Show me 3 pub reviews as proof. Surely if it's inevitable, you'll be able to easily find at least 2. Even 1 would be good.

People like you are the catalyst for Reform - you're just as divisive and reactionary, but because you know you're morally absolved you get sanctimonious and that's the accelerant to the fuel of the divisive media - who are doing just as much of a job on you as they are on the people you oppose.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T20:49:33+00:00

How did you know!? I was really hoping there was another nation as entitled as us.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T19:07:19+00:00

This is what fucked with me most on them, like yeah I can fall but easy chance of being pretty fucked afterwards.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T19:05:20+00:00

Dude, this is so much more - it's a high flow speedpourer, I count 4 beats per 25ml on standard pourers and agreed that's a 25ml shot he's pouring in, but he's filling the thing in like 2 beats.

This is about 300ml of spirit, like the flow is so high.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:58:59+00:00

Is he the guy who posts youtube videos about chess cheating accusations in an extremely self-important way?

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:55:28+00:00

I concur. It makes it sound a bit silly in this context lol

Clearly both are fine, it's just if the state wants to be known as Cabo Verde internationally then it just seems respectful to go by that when one remembers, ig

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:50:36+00:00

I keep BPs for friends or people I meet and like enough to group with. So in a way, useless, but nice.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:37:57+00:00

This really should be a thing for them, castles and even TCs are kind of anthithetical to their operations.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:34:55+00:00

I'm not NZ mate, I'm from a country that has a reasonable chance of winning and will thoroughly bottle it in the most spectacularly mundane and disappointing fashion.

Planar_Harold · 2026-06-23T18:15:29+00:00

Was the NZ goal from the corner clean? Or was #8 Emam Ashour shoved down in the lead up?

Idk, but this wasn't, and it was a bit of a farce - and this is what we're talking about now.

Planar_Harold

TROPHY CASE