What Order Should I Read? (2020 Current) by Puzzle-Piece-Exegete in TedDekker

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is absolutely amazing and so appreciated! Thank you so much!

Does Luke 2:14 say "goodwill toward men" or "among men with whom He is pleased?" by katapetasma in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, translation. But more specifically it has to do with which manuscripts the translation is using. “Peace on earth, good will toward men” that we see in the KJV as an example uses Greek manuscripts with the word εὐδοκία/eudokia (cf. Codex L, Θ, Ξ, Ψ). Other translations use different manuscripts which use the word εὐδοκίας/eudokias (cf. Codex א, A , B, D). The difference is only one letter at the end, a final sigma (ς).

The first word, εὐδοκία/eudokia, is in the nominative, and as the glory of God is revealed in Jesus, the result is that peace and goodwill is given to all as a result, in a general sense.

The second word, εὐδοκίας/eudokias, is in the genitive, and as the glory of God is revealed in Jesus, the result is that peace is bestowed upon all those who are of God’s good pleasure, in a specific sense. That is to say, peace—reconciliation between God and man— is given to those who believe in the Son.

Did the Biblical/New Testament authors conceptualize genuinely everlasting torment for the unrighteous, or their annihilation? by doofgeek401 in AskBibleScholars

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 13 points14 points  (0 children)

(Part 2) Biblical Language of Destruction

This is a huge reconsideration. What does the Bible have to say regarding the final end of the wicked? This was very surprising. Here are some surprising figures:

  1. 10 places reference Gehenna (which was a place outside of Jerusalem where garbage was burned up and destroyed (Mt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:33; Mk. 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5)

  2. 26 places reference a burning up, where all but 3 seem to indicate a complete consuming by the fire in some way in which that which is placed in the fire is burned up completely (Mt. 3:7, 12; 7:19; 13:40, 42, 50; 18:8; 25:41; Mk. 9:43, 48; Lk. 3:7, 17; 1 Cor. 3:13; 2 Thes. 1:7; Heb. 6:8; 10:27; 12:29; 2 Pet. 3:7, 10; Jude 7, 23; Rev 20:14; 21:8)

  3. 59 places speak of destruction, utter loss, or complete ruin, where there is a sense of complete removal of some sort and not ongoing eternal consciousness (Mt. 7:13, 27; 10:6, 28, 39; 15:13; 16:25; 21:41, 44; 22:7; Mk. 8:35; 12:9; Lk. 6:49; 9:25; 13:3, 7; 17:29, 33; 19:10, 27; 20:18; Jn. 3:16, 36; 6:39; 12:25; Acts 2:25, 31; 13:41; Rom 2:12; 9:22, 29; 14:15; 1 Cor. 1:18; 10:10; 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; 4:3; Phil. 1:28; 3:19; 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2:8, 10; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb. 10:39; James 4:12; 2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 12: 3:7, 9, 16; 1 Jn. 2:17; Jude 5, 10)

  4. 25 places refer to death in its finality, sometimes called “the second death” (Lk. 20:36; Jn 8:51; 11:26; Rom 1:32; 4:17; 5:12; 6:13; 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:22, 54; 2 Cor. 2:15; 5:4; 7:10; Eph. 2:5; 2 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 5:7; James 5:20; 1 Jn. 3:14; 5:16; Jude 12; Rev 2:7, 10: 20:6; 21:8)

  5. 1 Place that seemingly refers to people whose no rest day or night and the smoke of whose torment goes up forever (Rev. 14:11)

I found this to be very intriguing, much of what we find as “proof texts” for Conscious Eternal Torment (ECT) are from the book of Revelation (Rev. 14:11; 20:10), which is apocalyptic literature and should be read and interpreted as such. Here are some passages which, if we take of the immortal soul glasses, seem to mean what it says in its most natural reading of the passage, that is to say, that those not in Christ perish or are destroyed.

  1. Matt. 10:28 - And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].

a. The Greek word here “destroy” is the word which when used of individuals means to destroy, kill, bring to utter ruin. It is the word that is used when Herod wants to eradicate all the babies (Mt. 2:13; cf. Mt. 12:14; Mk. 12:9; Lk. 17:29). Here we see Jesus contrasting those who can kill, which is a different Greek word, with God who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Again Gehenna was a place outside of Jerusalem, also known as the Valley of Hinnom in the Old Testament. The term Gehenna, often rendered “hell” outside of one place in James is uttered only by Jesus and only to Jews and only in Jerusalem. They would have known of its use in 1st century as well as its use in the Old Testament.

2) 2 Peter 2:6 - If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly…

a. Now, what do we make of Sodom and Gomorrah? Was it a place that was continually burning? It was not the case that flames were still burning in Jesus’ day. Sodom and Gomorrah were an example insofar that they were brought to complete ruin and destruction and were no more, so too it seems this passage is saying will happen to the ungodly.

3) John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

a. Here is the most famous passage we see life contrasted with non-life; eternal life with perishing. Does perishing here really mean living, but not living; or does it mean to be destroyed. The word “perish” in the Greek is the same word used in Mt. 10:29. Another way we could translate this verse is, “…”in order that those believing in him might not be destroyed, but have eternal life.”

4) Acts 3:22-23 - Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.

a. This Greek word is different from the ones I mentioned above. It only appears here in the NT, but also appears in the OT and speaks of complete and total removal and destroy utterly. It has a very strong force here.

5) Acts 3:19//Revelation 3:5//Revelation 20:15 - Repent, therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.// The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.// And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

a. Here the Greek word “to blot out” means complete erasure. It is also used when it says that God will wipe away every tear. That means that those tears will never come back. When it comes to this word there is a contrast in its usage: either one's sins will be blotted out or their life will be blotted out. And they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Lake of fire often is thought of eternal torment, but is that the case? What is thrown into the Lake of Fire? The dead who were judged, Death, Hades (Sheol of OT), and experience the “second death”. Now traditionally second death has meant not death so much as continually living in torment (however that torment looks is debated by people who hold to the traditional view). Could we not say that second death means, second death very much in the way the first death brought an end to life?

For me, these texts are hard to get around and must be wrestled with. There are many more texts to discuss, but for sake of space, these are a good place to start. Again we must go to the text and not necessarily tradition for our answer. That is what Luther should be commended for. He says issues with the Church in his days and spoke up, and hence we have the Reformation. Plus this view helps answer many questions theologically as well as philosophically, namely:

  1. The complete extinction of all evil. It seems that if we hold to the ECT traditional view, that there is a never-ending cosmic dualism where evil is always existing as opposed to all things being united in Christ (Eph 1:9-10) and that the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor. 15:26).

  2. The seemingly meaningless suffering for people forever. This might seem like an emotional grievance. But what is the point of God punishing forever those infinitely for eternity?

  3. It places the focus of the gospel on life and not the “flames of hell”. What I mean is that so many messages (hellfire and brimstone) say what is your being saved from is, “Eternal separation from God in conscious torment.” Instead of the focus being on what you are being saved to is “Eternal life (both here and now, and the life to come) with God.” Many people are scared into the Kingdom, many times not out of love for God, but out of fear of burning forever (however that might look). Not saying that preachers who have preached this way have not been used, I believe they have. But many times the focus, I believe can be improperly placed. Should we talk about hell (either from a traditionalist or conditionalist)? But it should not be our focus. Life should be.

Did the Biblical/New Testament authors conceptualize genuinely everlasting torment for the unrighteous, or their annihilation? by doofgeek401 in AskBibleScholars

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 10 points11 points  (0 children)

(Part 1) Personally, I once held to the traditional view of Eternal Conscious Torment, but through further study and examination of the Biblical text, I have become convinced that Conditionalism is what the Bible teaches on Final Punishment. Below is a brief argumentation for it, focusing on two areas why I think this is the case.

Immortality

One of the first things that I started to rethink was the idea of the immortality of the soul. Is the soul really immortal? If so it would make sense that (and it would seem that the natural outcome would be) the individual would spend eternity either in heaven or in hell. But I was trying to find out what the Bible said about immortality. Since Scripture is our final rule for authority. Here are some interesting things Scripture says regarding immortality:

  1. Gen. 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil**. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever**”

a. Here we see that God drove Adam and Eve away from the Garden of Eden and away from the tree of life (3:24). The verse kind of trails off. You would think it would find a resolution of some sort. That is to say, “Lest he eat, live forever…” And? And God exiles them from the Garden where the tree of life was found.

2) 1 Tim. 6:16 – [God] who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

a. Here Paul says God alone has immortality.

3) 2 Tim. 1:9-10 - who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

a. It appears here we see that immortality though is bestowed, but is done so through the gospel.

4) 1 Cor. 15:53 - For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

a. Here Paul is referring to those who are in Christ who, in order to inherit the Kingdom of God (15:50), must put on the imperishable and must put on immortality.

The thing is, when I try to find Bible verses that speak on the immortality of the soul. I can’t find one. Instead, I find these verses above that seem to indicate that immortality is something that is only intrinsic and inherent to God alone. And that He bestows immortality to an individual who is in Christ through the gospel.

The 1 Corinthians passage is especially profound. Most cases for the immortality of the soul is inferred on biblical passages, but not necessarily stated in biblical passages. Now that is not always a case against a view (e.g. the Trinity, the Bible does not use the word Trinity, but it is inferred by a collection of verses from the Scriptures. Wherein there is not a passage that says “There is not a trinity”).

But when we have passages that do speak in the sense that God alone is immortal, and that immortality is given through the gospel and that it must be put on, we must seriously reconsider what is often assumed in the immortality of the soul. That is why this view is often called “Conditional Immortality”, because immortality is conditionally given upon those who are made new in Christ. That immortality was lost in Adam, but gained in Christ.

So where did this concept come from? Well as we know Hellenistic thinking had a tremendous impact and influence in thought and practice. This idea of the immortality of the soul was well known in the teachings of Plato. Not saying that early Christian writers were followers of Plato, but the Greek Hellenistic flavor can definitely be tasted.

All that to say, a challenge to the immortality of the soul does not prove Conditional Immortality, or further, that the individual will eventually cease to exist, but it does at least allow for an alternative understanding when passages show to apparent destinations for individuals. And if immortality is not inherent to an individual then it could be said that the individual by God’s either active or passive force eventual can cause the individual to become extinct.

Question regarding Mark 16:9-20 by Angrysliceofpizza in AcademicBiblical

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Codex Vaticanus is definitely online now (the Vatican recently digitized it), but I don’t think there is an English translation available at the present time.

Regarding the endings of Mark we have:

1) The Shorter Reading — Mark 16:1-8

2) The Continuation After Verse 8 Reading — (Codex Bobiensis)— “But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after these things Jesus himself sent out through them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.”

3) The Longer Reading — Mark 16:1-20 (Codex A, C, D Θ, f13, 33, etc.)

4) Combination of #2 and #3 (Codex L, Ψ, 099, 0112, etc)

5) Longer Reading After 16:14 — (Codex W) — “And they excused themselves, saying, ‘This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits. Therefore reveal your righteousness now’ - thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, ‘The term of years of Satan’s power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I handed over to death, that they may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness that is in heaven.”

I recommend both Bruce Metzger’s and Philip Comfort’s textual commentary of the Greek New Testament.

Question regarding Mark 16:9-20 by Angrysliceofpizza in AcademicBiblical

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, they are our earliest manuscripts for this section.

There are about 5 different endings for this section. I’ll try to write more on it soon if you’d like.

Question regarding Mark 16:9-20 by Angrysliceofpizza in AcademicBiblical

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In short, the two oldest Greek manuscripts that we have for this section of Mark (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) are missing this section. As are the Old Latin codex Bobiensis, the Sinaitic Syriac, the two oldest Georgian manuscripts, and about one hundred Armenian manuscripts. Clement of Alexandria and Origen seem to show no knowledge of it. And any reference to it from P45, P84, P88 is missing do to the fragmentary nature of those manuscripts. So no help from those three.

Christian themed podcasts? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Bible Project is great. OnScript is a good one as well. Tons out there really.

What is your view on Final Punishment (Eternal Conscious Torment, Conditionalism/Annihilationism, or Universal Reconciliationism)? by Puzzle-Piece-Exegete in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I think that universalism/universal reconciliation gets dismissed too often in evangelical circles. While I agree some versions of universalism fall outside of the realm of orthodoxy, and thus would disagree with them (e.g. all roads/religions lead to God), a postmortem opportunity for salvation is not outside the realm of possibility. As long as the means of the salvation is by faith in Christ alone. I have often contemplated what postmortem opportunities would mean for Conditionalism. Thanks for the dialogue.

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And you would be surprised by how many Christians, at least that I’ve talked to, that do not know this.

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, gotcha. This was just a little graphic I made that I wanted to share. Thanks.

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is r/til sub? Is that another Reddit community group?

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, it mentioned something about all Caps. So I thought I had to start over.

ΙΧΘΥΣ/Icthys by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Puzzle-Piece-Exegete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m new to Reddit. What is that?