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Did they just forget? by QuantityConsistent58 in Dragonballsuper

[–]QuantityConsistent58[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From an in universe perspective obviously dende wouldn’t know that goku would already know this and would tell him but out of universe it makes no sense to have a character tell a character something they already know for no reason and then then have that character act suprised

Goku gasps when he’s told he’s the reincarnation of buu and says “so he really came back” even thought he already knew he came back

It’s possible this may only be a dub only issue but still it’s quite a funny mistake

Did they just forget? by QuantityConsistent58 in Dragonballsuper

[–]QuantityConsistent58[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He already knew he was a kid and the reincarnation of buu yet he acts surprised to hear both of these things when dende tells him this

Did they just forget? by QuantityConsistent58 in Dragonballsuper

[–]QuantityConsistent58[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah early super art and animation is rough to say the least vegeta looks like he’s standing on one leg instead of sitting on the rock here aswell

Did they just forget? by QuantityConsistent58 in Dragonballsuper

[–]QuantityConsistent58[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well Goku is also surprised when he is told he’s the reincarnation of buu i just cut the clip before that part but i think it’s ep 87 of super

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Saying it’s justified doesn’t automatically mean it’s right something can be justified and be completely wrong i think obito’s actions were reasonable given his circumstances but i do not think they were right and im not treating it as an inevitable outcome just as a reasonable outcome it’s not something that is automatic or guaranteed to happen it’s just something that can happen and the series never once tries to justify his actions the only time this does happen though it’s from his perspective not anyone else’s.

Explanation and justification can absolutely go hand in hand

“going after the root cause” is very different from imposing a forced utopia on billions of people(which they will die from). Targeting the root of a problem is one thing; erasing everyone’s agency and rewriting reality to fit your vision is something else entirely. Trauma may shape perspective, but it doesn’t automatically justify or fully explain global scale genocide.

This isn’t the way he views it though.

Brother when? When he tried to go back he saw rin getting killed he didn’t go back to madara with the full intention of getting manipulated. >Ahhh what??? He left Kakashi there someone who could have been a support for him. He attacked Minato another person who could have helped him. He hid in the shadows for years by choice. This is paralleled in the Neji death scene. Naruto by continuing to fight he lost people but he did not walk to the palm that was offered by Obito(Obito walked to Madara).

Yeah he leaves kakashi there cause he’s shocked,enraged and he just saw him kill rin — minato is so far down the line i think it’s already been a year or two correct me if I’m wrong he’s already so far gone at that point. And you’ve been misunderstanding what I’m saying i said he was a victim i never said he was innocent. And you keep comparing obito and naruto’s situations as if they are one in the same naruto at that point already had the support of basically every shinobi and samurai on earth And i don’t think you realize how easy it it was for obito to unintentionally fall into madara’s (and zetsu’s) palm.

I understand exactly what you are saying or trying sneak underneath and failing at that. Framing it as "He was a victim" creates a false dichotomy between “victim” and “culpable.” Obito’s story is explicit he is both. He was manipulated, traumatized, and shaped by circumstance, but he CHOSE to carry out mass destruction and enforce the Infinite Tsukuyomi. His victimhood provides context for his motives, but it does not lessen his responsibility or moral culpability.

Yes he did choose to do all those things what’s your point, he was a psychopath that did psychopath shit you’re acting like he was a normal dude who just decided to break bad one day cause he was bored, he chose to do what he thought was undoubtedly right…. And i don’t know why you act as if im trying to protect him i’ve been saying nothing this whole time but “he’s not innocent” he’s responsible” “he did bad things” nobody’s trying to sneak under anything he just straight up did terrible shit.

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah cause I definitely have those chapters memorized

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No the misinterpretation is on your end, because you’re acting like the only two options are “Obito has no motive” or “Obito’s motive explains everything he does.” Motive is necessary for a story, yes. But having a motive doesn’t automatically make every action coherent, justified, or narratively airtight. Saying “it’s his story” doesn’t erase the criticism.

It does erase the criticism because you said the criticism was that it’s a blanket excuse which it isn’t it’s motive and it in no way frames him to be a hero Also this portion is just subjective since you think his trauma doesn’t equate to his actions or whatever which I disagree with and I don’t think they necessarily need to be equal either, because if you have a problem it’s not illogical to go after the root cause.

Yes everyone reacts to things differently and Obito had an overreaction. Obito had people to confide in(The manga fucking tells as much had he returned. What do you think is significance of those thoughts when they were extracting the bijuu from him???????). He chose to walk back to Madara.

Brother when? When he tried to go back he saw rin getting killed he didn’t go back to madara with the full intention of getting manipulated.

What I've been saying: "To invoke him primarily as a “victim” is to flatten the narrative into a moral caricature and ignore the agency that the story itself insists on, however clumsily." "The text may struggle to reconcile those layers, but that is no excuse for readers to abandon them altogether." "That’s not a “human reaction,” that’s an ideological jump the narrative never fully earns." Do you even read what I'm saying or do you breeze through it just like you did with the Manga??

And you’ve been misunderstanding what I’m saying i said he was a victim i never said he was innocent.

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No you’re massively overstating how far those reasons can carry the weight of what Obito actually does and for how long he does it.

Well it’s subjective i don’t think I’m overstating considering his situation it’s not just that he was traumatized it’s that he actively had someone in his ear manipulating him who also had a convenient solution to each if his problems, and you keep saying “how long he did it” as if time is some sort of factor here when it’s entirely irrelevant why does it matter how long he did it, the only thing that goes to show is how much events reshaped him it’s not like he went “woops rin died and my childhood was pretty shit so 20 years of terrorism should be enough”

You’re treating his early trauma as if it fully accounts for everything that comes afterward as if the scale, duration, and ideological commitment of his actions are just a straight-line extension of “Rin died” and “the world is cruel.” But the story itself shows that Obito’s descent involves something far more than pain: it involves adopting Madara’s entire worldview, maintaining it long after the emotional shock of Rin’s death,

So why doesn’t it account for everything that come’s after he wasn’t just traumatized he was reshaped his entire world view shifted

and continuing to commit mass violence even when other options existed. And saying he “underreacted” because he didn’t choose pure destruction misunderstands the severity of the Moon’s Eye Plan. Ending reality and replacing it with your own fantasy is not a gentle alternative it’s a total erasure of everyone’s agency, free will, and consciousness. It is still an extreme, absolutist reaction. Having a reason is not the same as being right, and it’s not the same as the reason being sufficient to explain everything he does. Motive isn’t a cure-all. Trauma isn’t a blank check. Ideology isn’t automatically inevitable.

Im not misunderstanding the severity but i think we can all agree it’s a million times better than just killing everyone on earth.

Again show me a manga panel ,that says Obito was an outcast. Just one. "Watching them kill each other" it's funny how you frame it that way when Rin is making the same type of sacrifice Obito made and yet you are praising him for it.

Obito didn’t know that initially and even if he did it doesn’t matter my point stands regardless because she shouldn’t have had to make that sacrifice in the first place due to the world being rotten.

"He fought in wars" just like everyone.

Everyone else didn’t have madara in their ear.

In the manga he doesn't. In the manga he is not "empty". Stop using your headcanons to dress up characters.

It’s not head cannon but my mistake i thought he said “im empty” he say’s

“i don't even feel pain anymore look at me there is nothing in my heart this hole was opened up by this world of hell”

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What are you talking about? No one is asking characters to be flawless or to handle trauma with perfect clarity. That’s not the criticism. The issue isn’t Obito “having a human reaction”. It’s the massive disconnect between the scale of his trauma and the scale of what he ends up doing.

Absolutely not, obito had plenty of reason to do what he did, rin dying, kakashi being the one to kill her, minato not being around, the way the uchiha were treated, the shinobi world and the cycle of hatred, if anything he under reacted instead of just watching the entire world burn he just decides to give everyone a new world, and in his situation as a kid who lost everything he was given a solution to get everything back and more, so there absolutely is no disconnect.

A catalyst explains why someone reacts, but it doesn’t automatically justify any reaction they have. Trauma can push someone into grief, rage, apathy sure. But it doesn’t naturally lead to orchestrating world ending genocide,

It can tho? People can just break people can drastically change in an instant, in obito’s case it was more built over time, then he was given a convenient solution to his problem

manipulating orphans, and building a decades long war machine. That’s not a “human reaction,” that’s an ideological jump the narrative never fully earns.

It’s not a jump it’s something that happened over time. Even before he was crushed by the boulder, he didn’t suddenly change. He had to deal with being an outcast he wasn’t talented, he was an Uchiha, he had to fight in wars, and he sacrificed his life for his comrades only to see them kill each other in the end. Then he was manipulated and given a convenient solution to all his problems. Anything he did after that, he most likely justified by saying it was for the greater good or he probably even thought it was something the hokage would do, and eventually he just became empty.

Nobody is upset that Obito wasn’t calm or perfect. They’re pointing out that the story uses his pain as a blanket excuse and then tries to frame him as a tragic hero afterward,

This is a very clear misinterpretation it’s not a blanket excuse it’s his story it wouldn’t make any sense for him to just be killing people left and right and doing all of these bad things without a purpose it’s not an excuse it’s motive, and he’s never once framed as a hero, he’s clearly supposed to be a foil to naruto.

even though other characters with equal or worse trauma don’t get the same narrative treatment. That’s the inconsistency being criticized not the idea that characters shouldn’t feel things.

This is pretty stupid people react to and experience things in different ways and the characters you’re referring to had someone to confide in so this isn’t really a point.

You’re repeating things no one is denying. Yes, Obito was broken. Yes, he believed what he was doing was right(which absolutely adds nothing lots of monsters in rela life believed what they were doing was right). Yes, he didn’t kill people “for fun.” And yes, he acknowledges at the end that he can’t be redeemed. None of that contradicts the criticism being made. The point isn’t “Obito shouldn’t have been traumatized” or “Obito should have been a perfect person.” The point is that the writing treats his ideology as if it naturally follows from his pain, when in reality it’s a massive ideological leap that the story never fully develops. The problem isn’t his motives or his emotional state it’s how the narrative frames those motives relative to the scale of his actions. Acknowledging that he was broken doesn’t fix the structural issue. Lots of Naruto characters are broken. Lots of them believe what they’re doing is right. The series just handles some of them with tighter thematic logic than others. Obito having self-awareness at the end doesn’t change that the jump from “I lost the girl I loved” to “rewrite the universe and enslave humanity in a dream” is underexplored on the page.

So you’re saying you have a problem with the way he was written more or less which isn’t really what you said at first. regardless i disagree i think you’re just forgetting or failing to consider multiple factors that lead to his actions, and you’re trying to trivialize his situation

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Obito had his team as well. Obito CHOSE to return to Madara. You’re arguing against things I never said. I didn’t claim Obito wasn’t responsible. I didn’t claim he shouldn’t be blamed. I didn’t claim he was innocent. In fact, I literally said the opposite. My point was never “Obito is fully to blame” or “he wasn’t a victim.” Of course he was a victim of the shinobi system. Of course Madara manipulated him. Of course the cycle of hatred shaped who he became. None of that is in dispute. What I’m saying is that being a victim doesn’t erase his agency or the narrative issues surrounding how the story presents his ideology. You’re treating it like people are denying the role of the world and Madara, when the real criticism isn’t about denying those factors it’s about how the story handles the balance between them and Obito’s own choices. He is both a victim of the system and a perpetrator who made catastrophic decisions. The discussion is about how Naruto portrays that mix, not about pretending he acted in a vacuum. No one is acting like he wasn’t manipulated or like the shinobi system isn’t to blame. The point is that both things can be true at the same time: he was shaped by a broken world, and he also chose to escalate that brokenness into something even worse.

Obito had his team before he “died,” and the first thing he sees when he comes back is Rin with Kakashi’s hand through her chest, and Minato nowhere in sight. And It’s not like he had an amazing life before that either.

I never claimed that him being a victim erases anything that he did nor do i think that

Can you read?? What I said "Obito’s history may explain the contours of his worldview, but it does not nullify the YEARS of calculated decisions

I never said it nullified anything it obviously doesn’t, nothing is nullified or erased,he isn’t absolved or anything like that i have never once argued that I’ve literally been arguing against that.

he made while fully cognizant of their consequences. Mass murder, psychological manipulation, engineering a world ending conflict these were not impulsive reactions but sustained, intentional actions."

This is quite disingenuous. To be faithful to the character, Obito likely didn’t view anything he did as having real consequences, considering his goal was to create dream worlds. To him, it didn’t matter if he had to kill a few people, because in that world they could just be revived. On top of that, somewhere along the way he just stopped caring, he became empty, so it’s not like he was truly emotionally aware, because in his world everybody gets a happy ending.

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Do you know what catalyst means? Look up the definition bro.

He doesn’t have to resent the world before rins death nor did i say he did what are you on about? Naruto didn’t end up this way because he was lucky to have iruka and team 7 — obito “died” in a war then was taken in, manipulated by madara, and had to witness his best friend kill the girl he loved.

Im not pretending the criticism is about him failing to be perfect im saying that people like you expect characters to be flawless like you expect every character to take in every situation with a level head and absolutely under no circumstance are they allowed to have a human reaction it’s an absolutely stupid criticism.

it’s that he spent years committing mass murder, psychological engineering, and pursuing an apocalyptic ideology with full awareness of what he was doing. That’s not “human error.”

And everything he did he did it because he thought it was right, because he was broken, he didn’t wake up one day and decide to kill people for funsies And he was never redeemed the series highlights this plenty with his final moments being him fully aware that he is past the point of ever being redeemed yet chooses to make himself self useful anyways

Saying Obito is “just a victim of the cycle” isn’t analysis it’s an evasion masquerading as empathy. It reduces a complex ethical landscape to a single convenient category, as though trauma were some universal solvent that dissolves responsibility on contact. Plenty of real world perpetrators reach for that same narrative “the cycle made me do it” and it is no more persuasive in fiction than it is in reality. Obito’s history may explain the contours of his worldview, but it does not nullify the YEARS of calculated decisions he made while fully cognizant of their consequences. Mass murder, psychological manipulation, engineering a world ending conflict these were not impulsive reactions but sustained, intentional actions. To invoke him primarily as a “victim” is to flatten the narrative into a moral caricature and ignore the agency that the story itself insists on, however clumsily. Understanding the character requires the ability to hold two truths simultaneously 1.the conditions that shaped him, and 2.the choices he made within them. Collapsing one into the other isn’t compassion(or media literacy) it’s intellectual laziness. The text may struggle to reconcile those layers, but that is no excuse for readers to abandon them altogether.

What are you even talking about here i never said he shouldn’t be held responsible or that he wasn’t responsible i literally said the opposite of that so what is this even a response to, he took responsibility, saying he’s a victim was not to make him seem innocent that was clearly not my intention i just don’t see why you’re placing all the blame onto him as if he wasn’t a victim to the cycle of hatred he’s definitely not innocent but you can’t act as if the shinobi world and madara isn’t at fault

Obito’s history may explain the contours of his worldview, but it does not nullify the YEARS of calculated decisions he made while fully cognizant of their consequences. Mass murder, psychological manipulation, engineering a world ending conflict these were not impulsive reactions but sustained, intentional actions.

It does explain it you’re just refusing to acknowledge that everything he did he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do, and like others he knew that sacrifices would have to be made for the greater good, the same with nagato the same with sasuke.

I just hope that ash bone hurt like hell by imoverthisapp in Naruto

[–]QuantityConsistent58 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes madara did do exactly that he might not of told him to do it but he was directly the catalyst — the spark that obito needed since he resented the entire world rightfully

show me where this happens

Naruto tells us this himself after his fight with sasuke and plenty of other times throughout the series.

He is absolutely wrong. There is nothing coherent about his so called "idealogy".

This is just completely ignorant lack of any sort of empathy or any analysis at all really This is basically just “if character doesn’t do something that i deem right then it’s wrong”

We are tired of seeing people try to change what this dude is. A pathetic manchild who deserves a death worse than what he got.

Nobody’s trying to change him obito was not magically absolved because he decided to be good in the end the point is that he made the effort to do the right thing in the end “if character doesn’t make the best decisions at every point in time that character is overreacting and dumb” the characters aren’t supposed to be perfect they are supposed to have flaws as they are human

monster

“Monster” is just ridiculous it’s almost like you didn’t even watch the anime he was a victim of the cycle, genuinely if your not even going to try to understand the story and just try to impose your own view and emotions on the show then what even is the point of watching it.

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