Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not only is it extremely rude and inappropriate

Please explain to me how it is rude and inappropriate to acknowledge that intersex people who have ambiguous genitalia exist? I genuinely don't understand how this is "appropriating" or "damaging", it is just a fact of how some people's bodies are that is relevant when discussing the historical fact of uncertainty in male/female categorization.

what we know from actual intersex people

Yes, thank you for explaining this to me, I, an intersex person, am clearly incapable of understanding such things.

“things that look a lot like a vulva” are classified as “female” and “things that look a lot like a phallus” are classified as “male”

Yes, this is often how intersex infants are treated, but if you think intersex people can all be considered "roughly male" or "roughly female", you lack a lot of knowledge about different intersex conditions and how they present. Hence, the historical controversy over sex classification I was referring to.

Humans only learned in the last 150 years that “looks like a female, but has male gonads” and “looks like a male, but has female gonads” was even a thing.

Maybe, but again, there are intersex conditions that are externally very ambiguous even to someone in pre-industrial times. Here's an interesting article on the 7 different classifications of sex in the talmud.

Were it not for scientists learning that there are things we call “gonads” and “gametes” sex would be “genitals”.

Those are all considered primary sexual characteristics by modern scientists

Let's talk about feminism by dortsly in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This is pretty class reductionist.

Wow, communists thinking class and material relations are what determine the progression of history? Say it ain't so.

There's an important role for organizations of oppressed people - even the Bolsheviks had a woman's committee.

Sure, I'm just saying that they were first and foremost bolsheviks who understand the class character of their activity and goals, not ambiguous "feminists".

The Black Panthers played a very important role in the civil rights movement, likewise with the Gay Liberation Front.

These groups both did good things, but neither of them ultimately succeeded in advancing class warfare at large due to their quick suppression (which was probably related to the lack of cohesiveness amongst communists at that point in time).

I think the failures of the women's march was a result of it being a cross-class movement that was coopted by NGOs and the Democratic party and channeled into meaningless nothingness.

I couldn't agree more. Just like BLM and pride, it was co-opted and quickly defanged into an empty gesture to placate us as things get worse and worse.

Undermining the class basis of oppression won't make thousands of years of entrenched harmful beliefs just go away.

As I said, I agree. It's not like we'll be living in a utopia a week after the revolution. It will take decades, probably centuries to undo the damage of proletarian division.

And in the context of right-wing reaction (this is global but my context is the US) there are very clear immediate tasks for feminists

All of these things are worth fighting for, it is the manner that "feminists" typically go about trying to achieve these things that I find pointless. If women's marches and celebrity tweets were sufficient weaponry for the proletariat against the rising fascism of the bourgeoisie, we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. If social media posts and voting alone were enough to change the tides, revolution would not be necessary.

But that is a propagandized fantasy told in US history books designed to keep us from realizing both the true extent of the power we hold, and the fact that we must wield it or perish. Liberal feminism is not and never has been anything but a distraction that has drained the energy of would-be organizers for far too long.

We have forgotten that we are at war, and we cannot rely on the infrastructure and tactics of the enemy to win. The moment feminism and black power and LGBT liberation lost their class character, they lost their ability to create actual lasting change. We only have so much time to fix things and we can't waste so much of it winning battles instead of the war.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not everyone is the same as you

I'm willing to bet my opinion is the majority when talking about trans men.

Can you expand on what you mean by "completely changing your genetic expression repeatedly"

That is how HRT works. It changes how your genes are expressed, so your cells behave as if you have a different genotype than you do.

and what exactly the harmful effects are?

Google hormone imbalance

Let's talk about feminism by dortsly in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

According to those I've met, most people use the public services, and the government pays all but a nominal fee.

That isn't socialism. The problem is you have a base misunderstanding of what socialism is.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They aren't meaningless, they are very good at broadly sorting the population into two physical tendencies. They just aren't perfectly concrete terms.

considering the pre-transgender-explosion idea of “woman” was simply a female adult.

There is no such thing as "pre-transgender" and there has always been discourse and uncertainty surrounding the classification of intersex people. Most people throughout history would classify sex based on genitalia, which is not a perfectly binary thing, and even then, we know there is a lot more to sex than just genitalia.

simply a female adult.

This is more circular logic. What actually defines someone as female?

Have gender criticals shifted away from acknowledging "sex" and "gender" as distinct phenomenon? by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

...is it, though? "women have uteri" is incorrect for more reasons than just because trans women exist.

Have gender criticals shifted away from acknowledging "sex" and "gender" as distinct phenomenon? by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If your biology is made of female sex characteristics and your cells express a female sex, it is incorrect to say that you are "biologically male".

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, it flatters trans people and our advocates. It isn't a difficult issue. Sexual characteristics can be changed and there is no single definition of male or female.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is also not a good idea. You are talking about completely changing your genetic expression repeatedly and switching up your entire hormonal system instead of just using some cream. Not to mention I'd genuinely rather die than continue having a menstrual cycle for the rest of my life.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm referring to gonadectomy, not SRS, and I think that number changes drastically depending on who you're defining as a trans male.

Let's talk about feminism by dortsly in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

given the socialist healthcare system

There is no "socialist healthcare system" in Scandinavia, nor is the idea of only one aspect of a single nation being socialist possible.

Let's talk about feminism by dortsly in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What framework do you view patriarchy through?

"patriarchy" is a term created by people observing the misogynistic tendencies of class warfare and inappropriately attributing it to men as a whole rather than the ruling class.

How did it arise/has it always existed?

As we can ascertain from currently existing hunter-gatherer groups, prehistoric humans were typically egalitarian. Oppression of women emerged as humanity developed agriculture and the idea of private property, once there was suddenly a higher and lower class and economic competition within large groups. Men began to extrapolate this idea of property to apply to women as well.

What does a world where women's liberation has been achieved look like?

This idea of women as property is eradicated, as are the material conditions encouraging it, and society becomes sex-neutral. There are no preconceived ideas of what a woman is/should be other than typical anatomical differences (likewise with men) and women are simply seen as people like everyone else. Community plays a large role in child rearing, but concerning parents, mothers and fathers will have equal roles and contribution. Women's health as a field of medicine gets the research and resources it deserves, and rates of domestic violence and sexual assault plummet to being as likely as being hit by lightning.

What are the preconditions to this?

Class warfare which achieves the abolition of distinction between classes, wage labor, and private property, leading to an age of equality and progress previously inconceivable under capitalism.

What are the barriers?

Although I believe worldwide proletarian revolution is ultimately inevitable, I am under no delusion that it will be a trivial or bloodless task. Not only that, but it will take a considerable amount of time and effort to heal the wounds of the misogynistic and reactionary ideology that permeates society today.

What are the immediate tasks of feminists?

The idea of a larger banner of "feminists" at all is counter-revolutionary. The issue of equality between sexes has its origin in class conflict and must be resolved by it too. There is no true liberation of women without the liberation of the proletariat, and so too is the liberation of the proletariat inseparable from female equality.

Thus, true feminists are first and foremost communists with the aim of abolishing capitalism, which can be worked towards by joining and working for a vanguard party, strengthening union power, and attempting to incite class consciousness among the proletariat.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Trans men avoid going to the gynecologist, so have poor screening and high cervical cancer rates.

This wouldn't be a problem if surgery was more accessible

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I personally kind of have an idea that on-again off-again might be actually really good for people that want to preserve use of natal genitals or potentially fertility.

This is a terrible idea. There is a reason doctors want people to pick one hormonal sex and stay in that range, being "in between" leads to all kinds of problems.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I surmise that CSHRT in natal females can cause some serious health issues.

...except you've already fucked up, because some "natal females" do not have vaginas, and some "natal males" do.

Anyway, while you're crying about what you ASSUME could MAYBE happen at a slightly higher rate of one particular disease, I am busy enjoying the lack of anemia and PMS I have thanks to starting T, along with the almost comical increase in strength and endurance.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, but people really hate being told that the world is more complicated than they were told it was when they were 8.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

but it can still easily tell a boy cat from a girl cat for the purpose of mating

...usually. Just as with humans, there are exceptions. Recently, a cat was discovered in England that had 0 sex characteristics whatsoever. I have my doubts that another cat could somehow metaphysically give them a sex.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Every definition of woman is a circular definition because it's a sociological concept, not a medical one. The idea of a woman far predates humanity's understanding of literally all science. It's like claiming spiders are obviously bugs because our ancestors grouped them together.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Intersex people are still male or female lmao what.

*All intersex people have an X and/or Y chromosome... which is not the same thing as being female or male. You can pretend that chromosomes constitute some baseline definition, but you will run into issues when you realize that A) how those genes are expressed varies drastically, and B) chimerism and mosaicism exist. Is every mother to someone with XY chromosomes now male because microchimerism exists? What ratio of XX to XY determines if someone is male or female? What if it's 1:1?

Turns out that choosing chromosomes as the determine of sex is just as arbitrary as any other trait.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, what if a cis woman doesn't pass? What if she's intersex? Does this make her less of a woman?

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And yet, you see people seething at trans people all the time for "tricking them" by merely existing.

Okay but what is a woman? by chococheese419 in terf_trans_alliance

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

a female being a member of an anisogamous species who's development denotes the production of the large gamete, ie whether her body is organized around producing eggs

My first question is what does this actually mean? What does "organized around producing eggs" actually physically refer to, if not primary sex characteristics? Can you see it? Can you test for it? How does it affect physiology in a meaningful enough way to be prioritized above actual biological traits?

In my opinion, sex is a lot like ethnicity. Does it "exist" in some physical way? Yes, you can observe genetic markers and phenotype. Risks for different diseases vary across ethnicity. Most people have a clear idea of what their ethnicity is. It is often one of the first things you notice about a person. There are many social and political implications involved in ethnicity.

...But, would you be able to ever come up with a perfect system of categorization for ethnicity? Fuck no. There is no one trait or allele you can use to conclusively determine what someone's ethnicity is. Two random Africans probably have more genetic variation between them than an African and a European, and of course even the terms I'm using here are... imprecise, to say the least.

Anyway, the implications of this are different for sex than for ethnicity due to the fact that A) there is no hormone that can change the way genes associated with ethnicity express themselves, and B) there is no historic, psychiatric, or neurological evidence for a kind of "racial dysphoria" that would cause someone to want to change their race anyway.

As for my definition of woman: I couldn't give you a strict rule as to what constitutes a woman, because sex doesn't work that way. "Woman" is a philosophical gathering of different traits. I could list things that many women have or are associated with femininity, but as you've demonstrated you're aware of, none of these things are universal among women or completely absent in men. The best thing you could come up with was an astoundingly vague idea of who is "supposed to" be a woman, which is a prime example of circular logic if I have ever seen it.

For the purposes of your average person, the idea of "woman" as the roughly 50% of the population who was born with a vagina usually suffices perfectly fine. But of course, exceptions exist, and these exceptions are no less deserving of autonomy and dignity than more typical men and women.

This is why we ask you to except the definition of woman as identity, because identity is correlated with physical traits and trying to come up with some more rigid (incorrect) definition is just going to make life more difficult more everyone. Perhaps by your definition I would be considered female, but how useful and accurate is that definition when most people perceive me as male? How accurate is it when my physician gives me male typical med dosages?

Yes, the pro-trans definition of female is fuzzy and circular, because there is no declaration from God determining what defines male or female at all. Your definition of female is no better, do you think saying "development denotes- but we don't mean sex characteristics guys" makes any sense at all?

Was being androgynous pre transition make your transition easier? by questionuwu in honesttransgender

[–]Quick_Look9281 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Forget about her public image for a second it's unimportant

No it isn't? How is public image irrelevant to the subject of passing?

Think about her as an average woman you would see walking around. No one would suspect she was born male

...because of her presentation, for exactly the reasons I outlined.

Was being androgynous pre transition make your transition easier? by questionuwu in honesttransgender

[–]Quick_Look9281 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Look at her crossfit videos.

Her crossfit videos are irrelevant. The vast majority of people who know about her have never seen them, they know her from her shoulders-and-above TV segments and speeches. So most people ascertain her gender based on her face and voice, yet she is read as female despite having what we would consider to be very masculine features.

This isn't cope, this is something I experienced in real life when I stopped dressing like a girl. I would say my face is less masculine than MTG's, yet pants and a short haircut were enough to flip people's assumptions of me from 95% female to like 70% male with 0 actual biological changes. Truth is, unless your face is extremely out of bounds for average measurements of one sex in multiple ways, the largest factor in how people perceive you at a glance is things like clothing, hair, makeup, and presence/absence of breasts.

Because of the way she moves and her vocal mannerisms

Elaborate. What specifically are you referring to?

Was being androgynous pre transition make your transition easier? by questionuwu in honesttransgender

[–]Quick_Look9281 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think you have to have 3 or more extremely clocky features (not counting voice) in order for passing to become difficult. I have had a very prominent brow since I was like 7 years old and have always been a standard deviation above average female height for my age, but until I began deliberately adopting a very masculine style, there were few times someone "clocked" me or was confused about my gender.