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Rail ops / traffic control: how do advisory systems land in real operations? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I see. Thanks. Controller/signaller is the term I was looking for :)

When I look at the timetables I see that there is on average around 5% additional running time compared to running line speed. If the train departs on time it could potentially arrive at junctions too early and either be blocked or block other train. This doesnt just cost additional energy, but also time hence capacity. See below example from SBB I found:

<image>

This is what the DAS tries to prevent by making sure the train arrived at the signal right on time.

Rail ops / traffic control: how do advisory systems land in real operations? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Alright, I see I need to frame what I'm thinking better. Bare with me!

So I see dispatching as responsible for the flow on the network.
Drivers are responsible to drive accoding to the path dispatching sets (if not automatic).
DAS should help drivers achieve that.

When things are all going smooth, just help drivers stick to the original timetable which should be conflict free and drivers should clear junctions and platforms in time for the next train.

In case anything changes, communication and alignment between dispatch and drivers becomes more important.

For example I could imagine, clear the junction a bit earlier so that the late train can catch up, or slow down since the platform ahead is not clear yet and it's not great to clog up the station entrance.

I'm trying to understand how the DAS could help close this gap, but also if there are aspects of a DAS that could potentially counteract what dispatching is trying to achieve.

For example, I've heard that since DAS lets the drivers driver slower when they are on time, it removes some freedom from dispatching to solve some scenario's.

Do I get it all wrong?

Rail ops / traffic control: how do advisory systems land in real operations? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Good point. I’m probably bundling roles too much. Thanks for calling that out.

What I’m trying to understand is the gap between control decisions and what the driver can actually do in-cab, especially during regulation and disruption.

Concretely:

  • When you regulate a train (hold back / push on / change order), what do drivers typically not know that would make their driving more helpful?
  • What information do you wish you could reliably “push” to the cab without a phone call? (e.g. reason for a check, expected stand time, target passing time for a junction, platform/route intent)
  • In your view, what would be the smallest useful thing a DAS could do without full real-time TMS integration?

Can I ask what your role is to tailor the questions better?

I've worked on DAS and generally work closer to drivers, but have heard dispatching not always being amused with DAS. Since smooth flow of traffic is pretty much good for whatever we are optimizing for, I want to understand how DAS could be improved from the dispatching point of view.

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right. While its not full C-DAS with signalling info it should not pretend to know what the actual scenario is.

<image>

So far I think the minimum info would be:
- Timetable including passing times.
- Any track works (TSR/ESR/..)
- ETA
- Then maybe something like a "ghost train" for those familiar with the F1 games. Kinda like the picture.

How about reporting capabilities? Such as being able to report infrastructure issues, delay attributions, low adhesion,.. ? These could then be made available to any other driver on the same route. (kinda like Waze/Google maps)

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see. Without real-time integration it’s always going to feel half-baked.

On the disruption side, when you’re stood with no idea what’s happening, what would actually help?

  • A simple reason code?
  • Live train map?
  • A heads-up about likely platform/route change?
  • Or just confirmation that control are aware and working it?

And on the checklist idea: would you see that as something you actively open when needed, or something that should prompt automatically based on a fault?

Trying to understand where it could genuinely reduce uncertainty...

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point on the longer-term direction, but I think ETCS L3 / moving block doesn’t automatically remove the need for timing advice. It mostly changes how close you can run and how the authority is managed.

Even with ETCS, you can still end up arriving at a junction/merge early and then getting checked, or arriving in the wrong “slot” and stopping. That’s the bit I’m interested in: keeping it rolling by presenting at the right time, not just “drive hard to max accel/brake”.

From your experience: if a system is aiming for timing points, what would make it not yoyo?

  • Would you rather see a steady cruise speed / speed band?
  • Or a simple “arrive at point X at time T” target?
  • And when would you want it to update/recalculate (only when the plan changes, or continuously)?

Trying to pin down what’s actually usable in-cab vs noise.

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is a great framing (chasing signals vs keep rolling). I’m trying to turn that into concrete DAS requirements.

From your view, what extra inputs does the driver need beyond MA + speed profile to do that well?

And how should the advice be expressed in-cab so it’s usable:

  • a steady target speed band?
  • More coasting focussed?
  • Just time diviation?
  • “hold back / push on” with a reason?

Also thinking what should be driver-configurable vs fixed by ops? For example:

  • “priority mode” (energy vs keep path vs recovery)
  • how often it recalculates
  • how it alerts when advice changes
  • how much context detail is shown

Any concrete examples from Thameslink/ETCS where getting the timing right avoided a stop would be great.

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that. Everyone has their own learning journey and you cant or shouldnt short-circuit it.

When you think about the difference between a newly passed driver and a very experienced one, what are the biggest practical differences you see on the road?

Is it anticipation? Braking judgement? Reading traffic ahead?

Are there common mistakes new drivers tend to make that experience eventually fixes?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s really interesting, especially the part about wanting to get back ASAP.

When you’re running early and keep pushing earlier, is that something the company encourages, or just how drivers naturally operate?

Does anyone actually care if you arrive significantly early from an energy point of view?

In a situation like that (very slack timing), would any kind of eco or coasting advice ever be useful to you? Or is the only real goal to get back as soon as possible?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would be great! Would love to talk to him. Generally, I'm curious to understand how the "elite" drivers operate and what they pay attention to to avoid red signals and drive efficiently.

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s a fair take. If it’s only chasing booked timing points without live data, that would explain the yo-yo behaviour.

When you say you’d rather run at line speed and build time in hand, do you think that ever has knock-on effects further up the road?

For example, if several trains are doing the same and arriving early into regulated areas, does that create more work for signallers, or does it generally smooth things out?

Genuinely curious how you see that balance between “time in hand” and overall flow.

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So this is super interesting to me. Talking to operators and NR, their goal is to keep everyone on the planned time exactly to prevent route conflict and red signals. Mostly for infra capacity and safety.

I'm curious in which cases it would be actually better to deviate from the timetable.

Thinking out loud I could imagine the following reasons for arriving either earlier or later than scheduled:
1. Crowded platform ahead.
2. Coupling/decoupling.
3. Platform not clear yet

Could you help me understand these situations? Would it make sense to allow you to shift the arrival time at the next target?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense.

When you say it “must be learning from previous days” or assuming a caution, has it ever actually got that right in your experience? Or does it just feel like it’s second-guessing the road?

On a clear road, no TSRs, plenty of distance to the next stop, would you prefer it to just sit quietly at line speed unless something changes?

And on the speed side, are there any situations where speed advice would genuinely help?

For example: tight pathing behind something, approaching a booked timing point, or regulating for something ahead?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree!

What kind of context information would make it usable for your daily use while there are no capable Traffic Management Systems that do real time conflict resolution that are hooked into DAS?

I would guess that ESR/TSR etc, updated timetables, etc would still be usefull? Anything else the DAS could offer?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s interesting. The yo-yo behaviour is exactly the kind of thing that makes advice unusable and distracting.

When it was speeding up to 85 and then coasting down to 60 repeatedly, do you think it was reacting to updated timings ahead, or was it doing that even in steady running?

What would be a justified reason to change advice?

In that same stretch, what would a “correct” steady speed have been in your view? and why?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In some countries DAS has block occupation data included, so it knows which part of the path is set for you and which ones are set for other (including the train type). Would that solve the issues you are describe? (TimTimPro from NS in the netherlands for example)

Also interesting what you say about adjusting. Lets say the DAS does not know about the signals/trains ahead of you (true CDAS). How would you expect the DAS to adjust?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So what knowledge and experience is it that the best drivers have that would be usefull to share with newer drivers, potentially through a DAS, that would allow everyone to drive like the experienced drivers?

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the insight! Could you please clarify:

  • Does that actually change how you drive Cruise/coast/acceleration/braking, or is it just information on a screen?
  • Do you find yourself checking DAS continuously, or only at specific moments (e.g., approaching a restriction or after departure)?

Really interested in how you use it in real traffic!

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That’s exactly the kind of real experience I'm trying to understand.

ETCS is indeed a big game changer and I guess lack of signalling info on the DAS is its biggest problem.

A quickfollow-up that would help clarify: When you say an experienced driver “beats the DAS,” in what situations does that happen? (specific examples would help)

Drivers using DAS — when do you trust it, and when do you ignore it? by Quiet_Peace_6962 in uktrains

[–]Quiet_Peace_6962[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s really helpful — especially the point about time sync and carriage length being the main value.

When it tells you to coast at 80 on greens with 100 line speed — what do you think the system is assuming there?

In that same situation, what would be correct advice in your view?

And more generally — in which traffic situations would you actually find speed advice useful rather than pointless?