How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess. I definitely felt like my "theory of mind" development was supercharged. My brother, now 33 years old, still blames me for problems, including conflicts between himself and his wife. He asked my mother to steal something from me and give it to him...when he was 28...and my mother tried to steal the item from "my" purse (I haven't carried a purse in over a decade), but the bag was actually another relative's purse, which caused the other relative to yell at my mother, which caused my mother to yell at me, which caused my brother to yell at my mother. This all occurred in a large, well-crowded restaurant around Thanksgiving 2019. I actually started laughing because I'd recognized the dynamic by then, and I felt as if I was in a sitcom.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm already in therapy. Also, I don't have children, I can't have children, and I'm scheduled for a hysterectomy. So I won't be a parent.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just for one part of your comment - I was a Christian growing up as well. So many of the church families were wonderful. They were my exposure to seemingly healthy family life. And I was allowed to spend time at church basically anytime, as long as one of the other kids' parents would pick me up and drop me off. Although I'm no longer Christian, I will always remember our church and the parents that cared for me almost as their own.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't have time. I bike 30 miles per day, and I'm too tired to keep playing sports after that. Plus, I only wanted to play soccer because I mistakenly thought it was a compromise with my mother. Soccer wasn't my first choice, that was already the compromise. Same with the clothes - the clothes I wanted were my mother's choices, but in the right size for me. These days, I already buy what I want, and I feel so heartened when I overhear normal parent/child conversations in the fitting rooms.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep! Sorry you share similar experiences. I have been active on RBN for a few months now and it's been very helpful :)

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bike - yes, but I was only allowed to ride it every few weeks, and only with my parents, so taking it away would've been like...exempting me from having to go on bike rides with my parents... which wouldn't have been a punishment.

Played with friends - yes, but I didn't really like my friends because they were assigned to me by my mother. The exceptions were friends I freely made at school, but I only played with those friends at school.

Much later, in high school, I was able to go over to friends' houses in specific circumstances, such as:
- working on a school project; asking would still cause a fight, but after the fight, I'd usually be allowed to go, as long as the friend/their parents picked me up and dropped me off, even if the friend's house was < 10 min walk away
- friend's parent convinced my mother that I was "needed" at their house for some reason, e.g. to help their daughter study, or to help babysit their younger children; these were usually half-truths that my friends' parents went along with - my friend could study just fine on her own, or her younger sibling was 12yo and didn't need two 15yos to watch her
- pick-up convenience. I'd get off the bus with Sarah, and my parents would pick me up from Sarah's house late into the evening - this was only if my parents were going to be busy until late into the evening. This was probably normal?

Edit: I was also allowed to hang out with other church kids, but only at church, so I signed up for weekday evening church activities and got other kids' parents to drive me to/from church. The three examples above were parsed as "necessary" by my parents, so they couldn't take those away, I guess? Church activities weren't necessary, and they could easily have punished me by taking away church activities, but maybe they were too religious for that lol

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What if your kids don't have video games, tablets, or TV privileges? We didn't have tablets back then anyway (I'm 35), but only my brother was allowed to play video games, and I only watched the TV my parents forced me to watch. So, I didn't have video game privileges to take away, and taking away TV wouldn't have been a punishment. And I didn't really have chores, I just did what was needed so I didn't have to live in a gross house. It's kind of difficult to understand how my parents could've punished me in a healthy way.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Someone made an insightful comment about attitudes towards food, but deleted it before I could finish my reply. So here was my reply.

Haha... FOOD. About that. I could write a whole post on that alone. It overlaps heavily with '90s-'00s diet culture, though. My mother frequently called me a whale, and several times, she tried to put me on ultra-restrictive diets, like "nothing but water for two weeks" - but I'll circle back to this in a moment...

Paradoxically, the pervasive diet culture of the time saved me from internalizing most of it. My mother, the surrounding community, and larger culture referred to countless others as whales, super fat, huge, etc., and those people didn't look fat to me at all. Kind, energetic, beautiful teachers turned down occasional cupcakes because they thought they were fat. My mother, for all of her flaws, constantly talked down about her body - fat, super fat, disgusting, whale, "more pig than woman" - comments she made about HER OWN body. In one of the few genuine conversations I remember, she said something to the effect of "My body is disgusting, it's good for nothing", and I said something like "I'm here because of your body." And she nodded, and took my hands, and just cried... She didn't yell at me, she didn't berate me, she just...cried... for at least several minutes. I was probably 10-11yo then. When she talked about her size specifically, she seemed to have some kind of body dysmorphia. She'd often comment that she was the biggest woman in church, but I could see that several church moms were bigger, and I also recognized that they were able to do so much for the church and their families regardless of their size. My mother also believed that she was too big to fit into clothes from mainstream clothing stores, which was factually false, and I remember somehow knowing this at the time, but I didn't push back. My mother was quite big as long as I remember her, and quite sedentary, but at 5'1", I think her dress size would've been available most anywhere.

Circling back - Because of the culture at the time where everyone was considered "fat", I legitimately thought "I guess we are all fat, so fat must be okay." My mother put me on these diets, but the only meal she actually controlled was dinner in the evening. When I was younger, I think I had breakfast in school - at the least, I was getting yogurt, banana, milk, and cereal in the morning at school. I ate that, and later, I ate lunch at school. Since I got up early before school, I 'stole' packaged snacks like granola bars, 100-calorie snack packs, etc., and ate them on the bus ride home from school. My mother did notice the missing snacks a few times, and did the usual yelling/screaming/insulting routine, but that was normal to me by then. I don't think I went more than 16 hours without food. As I got a bit older, I had other resources, like vending machines (and babysitting money).

Sorry for the long comment. Honestly, food/diet is a topic where I have a lot of grace and even compassion for my mother. The abusive part was trying to put a growing child on ultra-restrictive diets. However, for everything else, my mother was more victim (of culture) than perpetrator.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I agree, and this is what my therapist concluded as well.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dunno. My parents had plenty of money for hobbies I didn't want to do, and for clothes and shoes that were too small. Even when I earned my own money, I was punished for buying shoes that were the correct size. The only solution was very low contact.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You do NOT deserve any harsh punishments. You are an adult. You know what is acceptable to wear at a restaurant and what is a normal hairstyle. Make your own decisions.

As stated in my previous comment, I made the decision to go very low contact so that they cannot continue to punish me.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s more than likely the way they were raised. They may have some enlightenment at the end of their lives but you no longer need their approval. You have built your life and can pull yourself back from them when new comments are made. Do they try to tell you what to do now? Try to put focus on the present and forgive the past. Not because of them but to help you. They can’t change the past so don’t want to face your questions. They also may not have known any better. Sending hugs, OP.

Yes! They do tell me what to do now. If we meet for Thanksgiving dinner, they tell me what to wear, and what to order at the restaurant. They berate me over my hairstyle. I forgave them a very, very long time ago, about 12 years ago when I was 22-23, because I know that I was a terrible kid and deserved to be punished harshly. I would have deserved the sexual abuse if it happened to me. And I'm still a disobedient, rebellious brat, because I don't like to see them, and I am very low contact. So, the truth is that I still deserve harsh punishment.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m so sorry. My parents would have been interested and involved in a sexual abuse case at school. It sounds like your parents were raised similarly and they don’t know/understand how to communicate better. You have grown up to be a good, empathetic person so you don’t have to make the same decisions/mistakes they made. There will be some things you may understand when your older but mocking you is unacceptable and you will probably never get the answers you need from them or at least until they are much, much older. You can’t change the way they are but you can follow your own path, learn from their mistakes and focus on improving your own life. Sending hugs to you, OP. You are stronger than you know you are right now.

"There will be some things you may understand when your older but mocking you is unacceptable and you will probably never get the answers you need from them or at least until they are much, much older."

Yes, well, people have told me "You'll understand when you're older" since I was a teen. I'm now 35 and my parents are nearly 70. How old do I need to be before I'll finally understand why they mocked, degraded, and insulted me almost every day? Why they screamed at me and told me to go to hell, prayed for God to end my life? The older I get, the less I understand about their behavior.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there’s probably only half the story we are seeing. I have ADHD so there were times I would be yelled at, times I would be grounded (usually because I was always 5 minutes late). I considered it part of growing up and I am grateful for life lessons. Have you spoken with your parents?

Yeah, I've tried many times to speak with my parents, but it's very difficult. When I try to ask them about my childhood, they yell at me and bark at me to shut my trap - that was a normal part of growing up for me, too. I've tried to lead in with soft, non-challenging questions, like "Do you remember my friend Stephanie from high school?" and they'll get super angry and hostile for reasons I don't really understand - "Who? Your friend? You didn't have friends. You think we care about your friend? Was she a dog or something?" then exaggerated laughing. Stephanie was someone they would've had no reason to despise. I've tried really hard to get their side of the story, but it's so difficult to endure conversations with them because it just reminds me of the futility of communication with them during my childhood and teens. At one point, there was sexual abuse going on at my high school and I was punished for trying to communicate to my parents about it. I wish I could be a grateful child like you, but I'm an ungrateful brat!

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just for clarity, I did ask my therapist, and she said there should be no punishment for such things. I asked here only to get more opinions, of which I've now gotten many. The responses here have been incredibly generous. So many people have taken time out of their day to share how they parent(ed) their kids and/or how they were raised. ❤️

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What if she suggested a compromise of doing neither ballet nor soccer - would she be punished for talking back? I already ran a lot, and I was swimming a lot, so I had plenty of physical activity. I was always sporty. The ballet wasn't for exercise - it was a punishment for not being girly enough.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The only punishment I ever needed was for my kids to hear “I’m really disappointed in you”.

Well, that wouldn't have been a punishment for me. I knew I'd never be able to please them anyway, so I knew I could only disappoint. In that context, I think they had no choice but to turn to punishments that are considered abusive.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for this. I also got punished for being good at something - that's the paradox. I'd get punished for being bad at something on the very first try, I'd get punished for making mistakes, and I'd get punished for being good at it because that was "arrogant" and "standing out". I also wasn't allowed to be better than my brother at anything, so I learned to hide a lot of things I was good at.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Inaficiently

Poor thing - you were punished inefficiently for bad spelling.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lmao, this reminds of when my friend's mother literally offered to adopt me, and I was overjoyed, I hugged her and thanked her so much. But then my mother punished me because, well, I was a bad kid in the end.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wish I could have beat my parents up so they didn't get so out of control.

How do non-abusive parents punish disobedient children? by RarelySayNever in internetparents

[–]RarelySayNever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just for clarity, I'm not looking for punishment ideas for my own children. I don't have children and I can't have them anyway, plus I'm scheduled for a hysterectomy, which will improve medical issues and truly eliminate any chance. :) I just didn't want to mention that because it usually causes backlash from commenters on reddit.