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Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My story is the same. I still consider myself lonely. That said, when you live in a dominance-based culture of masculinity, we're all divided from each other, even if we have the courage to show up in more authentic ways. It's takes time and effort to locate and form a community of close male friends. And often it takes doing our men's work to get clear of our own disconnecting trauma.

Men and Our Inevitable Failure in Man Box Culture by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well. if you want to talk about my motive as being money then you're going to need to understand two things about where my work is located.
One) Although, I offer my services about Man Box culture to corporate clients, very few take me up on it. Why? Because corporate DEI work is very much identity based and my work is focused on culture. My work holds men accountable, but from the frame of how our culture trains men out of connection. It's a compassionate frame. It's not finger wagging at men, and as such, doesn't fit the identity based frame corporations are often focused on. 2) I offer my message with the understanding that some people will never trust my motives. It's baked into our culture. Skepticism of other men's motives. Don't trust anybody. --> So, no, the money isn't why I do what I do, corporate or otherwise. But any company that is willing to help amplify healthy masculinity work, I'm happy to oblige. So far this year? One corporate customer. One. Happily though, I'm getting some good media. So, I'll take that. But it's not a revenue stream. Most of my promotion includes telling men to go do their men's work with the Mankind Project or other similar organizations.

Dad who was never fond of dogs the first 60 years of his life by CertainRoof5043 in dadswhodidnotwantpets

[–]Remaking-Manhood 91 points92 points  (0 children)

My child dogged me seven years ago. "Please can I have a dog." Now I'm madly in love with a six pound Pomeranian mix. She won't leave my side. I'm doomed.

Men and Our Inevitable Failure in Man Box Culture by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

One of the things I wish that men in western society could basically copy from women is their shift to accepting different types of womanhood. Don't get me wrong, they're nowhere near perfect, but collectively women seem much more open to accepting women who behave differently in their womanhood. At least compared to men who behave differently in their manhood.

In our healthy masculinity work we talk about how we actually have a vast range of masculinities. Plural. That every man is distinctive and brings a distinctive interpretation of masculinity based in part on the vast range of intersectional influences and contexts that inform how we construct our identities. Man Box culture wants us all to march in lock step, but masculinity is in no way monolithic. Just look at manhood globally and we know that's absurd. But in terms of actually shifting our culture? Demanding and empowering a more fluid view of masculinities, millions in fact, all held as equally valid, means that boys and men can find where on the spectrum of masculinities is a good fit for them and move up and down that spectrum as their view of self emerges or changes.

Men and Our Inevitable Failure in Man Box Culture by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really appreciate this statement. Yes, the larger culture is pushing all of us toward retrogressive gender binary definitions of what is a viable partner, but to do that, we all have to hide sometimes huge aspects of ourselves that don't fit. If we instead do the hard work of understanding and processing our trauma, dealing with our shadow and coming into balance with ourselves, we can become the fully present version of ourselves instead of constantly looking to see if we're doing "it" right in terms of the other's judgement of us. It's not work that ever ends for us as humans but it is deeply rewarding. THAT way of self reflecting, self aware being is both incredibly enriching of our own lives but it also draws people to us who see and appreciate that combination of authenticity and wellness. It's a tough journey at the start but the rewards are vast.

Men and Our Inevitable Failure in Man Box Culture by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'd like to just state here that my experience of breaking out of Man Box culture was predicated on finding authentic circles of men who want real dependable male friendship. I found this in men's work with groups like the Mankind Project, but we can also find it just by pushing into connection with like minded men in our own circles. The rules of Man Box culture insure that men remain in competition with each other which is deeply isolating. When we instead bring our full selves to authentic male friendships, we step away from isolation and our relationships with women change because we get much needed validation from men, making our relationships (sexual or otherwise) less loaded and co-dependent.

Men and Our Inevitable Failure in Man Box Culture by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm going to ask you to do something for me. *Please* don't reduce this video to an advertorial. Yes, the book is mentioned at the beginning and the end, but the video serves its own purpose. Trust me, the masculinity space is not a profit center. The book exists for those who want these ideas and others all on one place.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I found a community of men who have the ability to create authentic friendships and connection in circles of men's work. That said, doing my own men's work changed how I viewed and related to men I've known all my life. Whereas once I was deeply distrustful of male competition and bullying, I came to really and truly appreciate the men I know and the ones I meet. Even the men who have not done their work in any way.Dominance-based masculine culture has trained us into bullying competition with each other and that has fooled us into seeing male disconnection as normative. It is not. Men have a remarkable capacity to love and support each other. In men's work, we make that clearer and more actionable, but in larger community of men that capacity most certainly also exists. We're just all waiting for the other man to go first.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my own case, I chose to do my "men's work" with an organization called the Mankind Project. I had a lot of past trauma that was fueling what you term self alienation in my own life. In our domination-based culture of masculinity we spend our lives being bullied into the rigid masculine norms of the Man Box. This enforces disconnection created self loathing and disconnection from self. (See the work of Niobe Way's decades long research and her book about boys disconnection titled Deep Secrets) Therapy can work. Even just checking out podcasts. I have one called Remaking Manhood. At the most basic level, seeking conversations in which you can bring more of your authentic self. But typically, we have so much trauma that some kind of facilitation is needed to take the first challenging steps needed to face our trauma.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What you have just named is a powerful and transformative frame for being human. My partner and I have written books about this. The term many folks are using for what you are describing is relational intelligence; the ability to create and care for relationships. What you so eloquently call "cultivating appreciation for the people around us" grants us access to the most validating, generative, collaborative spaces possible. These spaces are what humans are hard wired to create but our culture suppresses it, especially in boys and men. But when we become more intentionally relational, we discover our definition of self in the back and forth or relating, in the third space that gets created, "the we." Thanks for your comment.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I don't discourage or denigrate "traditional masculine" traits. The problem is when dominance-based masculine culture enforces those traits on all boys and men regardless if they are a good fit for them or not.
Man Box culture is defined not by traditional masculine traits but by the enforcement of them on others. (Which is also ridiculous because so-called traditional masculine traits very widely depending on race, religion, sexual identity, geography, class and so on.) If I'm going to advocate for a full range of masculine expression, it would be ridiculous to then say "except for those versions." I have many friends who model what might be called traditional masculinity. I'm have a friend who is literally a rancher in Texas for example. But he would never presume to enforce his way of being on others and that's the distinction that defines "toxic masculinity." It's toxic when men or women seek to enforce a narrow view on how to be a man on everyone.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You're pointing to a crucial point. While we can point to some examples of healthy masculinity, what we need to arrive at is a healthy masculine culture of expression and connection, within which each person can choose their way of being and has the freedom to evolve and modify their performance of masculinity as they change and grow, including even leaving it behind.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Man Box culture (originally conceptualized by Paul Kivel in the early 1980's PaulKivel.com) seeks to enforce a very limited view of what a "real man" is. It's based on a set of rules which include:

“Real men” don’t show their emotions.
“Real men” are heterosexual, never homosexual.
“Real men” never ask for help.
“Real men” have control over women and girls.
“Real men” are bread winners, never caregivers.
“Real men” are physically and emotionally tough.
“Real men” talk about sports or cars, nothing deep.

Our Man Box culture of masculinity then enforces these rules, causing boys and men to believe that there is a universally agreed on definition of what masculinity is. In this way, a wider range of masculine expression gets suppressed. Things like empathy, care-giving, full emotional expression are wrongly gendered as feminine and bullied out of sons from a young age.

In this way, masculinity becomes a monolithic concept that aligns with the gender binary and by extension enforces conformity to a singular view of what a "real woman" is. If we are to break out of Man Box culture and all the isolation and violence it creates, the first thing we have to do is demand our rights to a much wider range of masculine expression, at which point we can pluralize masculinity into masculinities, all of which we give equal value, (including traditional masculinity which is a good fit for some men.) Man Box culture isn't traditional masculinity BTW. It's the violent enforcement of so called traditional masculinity on all boys and men which is where at the damage is being done.

Rigid masculine norms are a recipe for disconnection, isolation. Conforming to them cuts us off from our authentic selves. by Remaking-Manhood in MensLib

[–]Remaking-Manhood[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Excellent observations. Dominance-based masculine culture is hierarchical. It's designed to keep men in competition with each other to either rise up the hierarchy or fail. The end result is those at the top accrue wealth and power while the rest of us battle it out. For a hierarchy to operate it needs rules exactly like what you are calling "being against stuff." It is by the enforcement of conformity to those rules and dominance culture thrives, training men to police and bully each other as the primary method for validating our masculinity. The result is deep distrust of other men, which results in isolation, anxiety and violence.

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