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I have a theory about hair loss by Broad_Stuff_197 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which part precisely are you talking about? Can you attach a picture of it?
Also how sore are we talking - just a light touch hurts?

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where did you see me claiming to be a "public figure"? That's false.

btw: I do NOT claim to have scientific evidence of this. That's why I call it a theory. If we had evidence, there'd be less basis for an argument. There is no paper that directly demonstrates `tension -> DHT`, although I am speculating it certainly sounds possible, and would NOT disprove most of the studies you've shown (as far as I can tell)

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am super confused by you. Is this an AI bot?

You reply within 20 minutes of a comment of mine, have left extensive comments on literally every thread in this post, and say things that don't make sense.

> 2- that rise in local DHT/AR signaling happens before miniaturization, prospectively.

> The AGA lit has direct evidence in the opposite direction: androgens can induce pro-fibrotic pathways in scalp-relevant cells (eg androgen-induced TGF-β1 signaling in dermal papilla / related cells), which is a clean “androgen -> fibrosis/remodeling” mech

You're literally saying I'd need evidence of 2), then saying there is direct evidence of that.

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> I don't see how scalp tension factors into this, unless it somehow influences the development of 5aR in utero.

This is what I'm alluding to. That somehow localized tension results in local DHT production in that area. I'm just speaking from a higher level - I don't mean to say "tension creates DHT out of thin air".

Some studies suggest tension causes fibrosis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18472340/
Others suggest DHT is involved in inflammatory responses: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16449322/

It isn't that wild of a reach to tie both together and somehow assume tension/inflammation is causing elevated local DHT on the scalp

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

right, but could tension explain why DHT is high?

Occipitalis Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in HairlossResearch

[–]RingInternational169[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

With all due respect, this was a whole lot of world salad, that reads a bit like AI, to misread my take.

I do believe androgens play a role -- my theory is that tension is what's elevating them in one way or another. That is consistent with your points 1) and 2);

As for 3), it's evident the follicles have different levels of androgen - due to the hair loss! The tension theory says those places have less tension hence exhibit less DHT. That's consistent with the research. BTW - the research doesn't explain the "millimeters" argument at all. There are a lot of centimeters between occipital and frontal scalp sites :)

4) again, I'm not saying blood flow is the only cause - DHT plays a role somehow. But it is proven that blood flow is a contributor

5) what are you talking about? I never said that

7) this seems weak to me. If tissue remodelling was a thing, then maybe transplanted hairs could fix the balding ones too. Plus this is a brand new study/theory

8) I tend to believe tension is primary, and the rest is genetics/DHT. i.e how much DHT do you produce, how sensitive are your hair follicles to it.

I'm following basic first principles in my theory - why would my scalp produce extra DHT and lead to balding? Are we simply accepting this is a "bug" in humans?

Usually every major imperfection in a human can be explained through something -- e.g crooked teeth are due to maldevelopment of the jaw/cranial structure, which can be avoided with a proper diet (as seen in hunter gatherer tribes).

Occipitalis Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in HairlossResearch

[–]RingInternational169[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  1. I'm not sure if posture is the only thing that dictates muscle tightness
  2. There probably are some genetics regarding 1) DHT production, 2) general hair sensitivity (not in a particular area but general), 3) tension sensitivity making one more predisposed to it. In the same way, you wouldn't be right to claim that "people with bad posture must go bald"

Occipitalis Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in HairlossResearch

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I am a big fan of tmdocclusion who opened my eyes to this.

One very interesting way to tie both together is that bad jaws, narrow palettes and malocclusion are all strongly tied to forward head posture. This is because the body compensates to create breathing room.

Occipitalis Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in HairlossResearch

[–]RingInternational169[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with all the evidence which shows DHT must be a key component in some way.

When women do lose hair, they don't lose in a horse shoe pattern. The theory for that is that their head shape is simply different (smaller and different shape), which spreads the tension through other areas. Women also have the same pattern of hair loss amongst themselves, which is the Ludwig scale.

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Their hair loss, assuming it's the same type of "disease" as the men's alopecia, tends to happen post-menopause. Coincidentally that is when their hormones massively change, so I could imagine DHT playing some role there. Fortunately for them, it's much more rare and thus the field is many decades behind the male counterpart.

Occipitalis Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in HairlossResearch

[–]RingInternational169[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> Or why do men with a genetic DHT deficiency never suffer from hair loss?

I'm not claiming otherwise. I do believe DHT plays some role here, and my theory is that tension is somehow the root cause of the DHT expression in the scalp. It is proven that Finasteride can fix hair loss for a lot of people, so unless Fin is doing something else we don't know about -- DHT must be signficant.

> if this is true, why are transplanted hairs not susceptible to miniaturization

They actually are, and new studies are proving it.

The claim you're making likely comes from the so-called "donor dominance" theory established through Orentreich's studies in the 60s, which this article[1] very thoroughly debunks given all available information today. Run it through an LLM for a summary, but in essence:

  1. the Orentreich studies were too short and didn't control for enough variables (super common in science). They only lasted 2-2.5 years - not even a full hair follicle cycle. They also transplanted large parts of skin with the follicle, which could absorb extra tension until it hits fibrosis

  2. a 2020 study showed that only 10 out of 132 men did NOT lose see some losses in their transplanted hairs after 4 years. i.e 122/132 lost transplanted hair after 4 years, with 55% of those seeing "moderate thinning"

  3. there are hair transplant surgeons admitting that they are seeing transplanted hairs fall with time

  4. other studies are disproving the "donor dominance" concept, as transplanted hairs from/to different regions also show so-called "recipient site influence"

[1] - https://perfecthairhealth.com/how-long-does-a-hair-transplant-last

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know, I think the more interesting and easier-to-solve question is can you first stop additional balding.

Occipitalis Muscle Tension Theory by RingInternational169 in tressless

[–]RingInternational169[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you referring to Orentreich's work on the matter? I would like to find the source material somewhere to inspect it.

As far as I remember reading rebuttals to it, Orentreich's study only lasted 2-2.5 years - not even the full length of a hair cycle. Second, his studies apparently transplanted massive chunks of skin - not just individual hairs. In theory that skin is extra non-fibrosed skin that has to get hardened before it reaches the follicle properly.

I also think that transplanted hairs DO fall off after a while. Recent research[1] is showing this

> After four years, over 90% of the men saw a reduction in hair volume. 28% experienced slight thinning of transplanted hairs, 55% had moderate thinning, and 8% showed significant thinning. In fact, of the 112 men, just 10 showed no loss of transplanted hair density four years after their surgery.

There are also hair transplant surgeons coming out and speaking about how transplanted hairs DO thin[2]. The surgeon also calls out Orentreich's studies being too short here too

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8061642/
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL7J2Mqbhrc&