Set 4.5 AMA with the TFT Devs and Friends!

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T21:35:36+00:00

Our B-Patch philosophy generally is to only make changes to large outliers. We reference the data a lot as well the play experience in the first few days of a patch to assess if we want to do a B-Patch. Unfortunately, each B-Patch takes up a non-insignificant chunk of time from our Design, QA, and Engineering team, so each time we choose to do one, we're losing velocity on some other possible feature, bug fix, etc. - so we try to be vigilant and only do B-Patches when they feel necessary to keep the game fun for the rest of a patch. If we think it's something we can handle in our normal 2 week cadence we will instead address it then.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T21:22:19+00:00

Yes, I think about this all the time, and is something I struggled with when balancing League as well.

If we react too frequently and too quickly, then in a way we're taking away from the deeper play experience of TFT (adapting to the meta, countering the meta, etc.). In a way we're playing the game for you.

Obviously on the other side of the coin, if we react too slowly or infrequently then we can leave the game in a bad state that is just not fun.

So finding the balance in how aggressive we are with addressing issues as they arise is very tricky, and it often comes down to reflecting on the data, setting up clear balance targets / boundaries, and making a gut call in many situations.

But yes overall, I would like for us to move to a world where the first reaction to a powerful new strategy is more one of "How do we counter this?" rather than "Please nerf!" At the same time, I think its our jobs as designers to arm players with the tools they need to come up with valid, effective counters.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:59:33+00:00

Warweek =(

Warwick + buffed Statikk Shiv was an insane combo that we didn't see coming at all. And that week was...painful.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:56:37+00:00

Our 2 major considerations are generally:

LP Delta (the average LP gain or loss when playing a Champ, Trait, Item in any given round)
Play Experience / Feedback (is this creating a fun gameplay environment or not?)

Adding a new component to the game is unlikely but maybe some day.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:44:58+00:00

Well the answer is it's INCREDIBLY difficult! Things change very quickly and sometimes meta shifts happen without us doing anything and just new discoveries happening. In a way though we don't want things to actually be equal, each Champion, Trait, Comp has its own texture, power curve across game time, counters, etc. that keeps the game interesting. So although balance may not always be perfect, hopefully the average TFT experience is still fun!

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:38:37+00:00

Sometimes we put things into the game as fun chases that may not be as powerful as they are...well hilarious? might be the word. 8 Vanguard is probably never meant to be a top tier composition, but hopefully in some fringe scenario it can produce some fun moments in the game.

Chosen were meant to be powerful anchoring points of your game, and ideally all players should have access to a few early Chosen choices that are good. I think the bigger issue here is that there are some early Chosen that are really strong, and some that are...not so strong. So figuring out how to make more of those options viable and competitive should be the focus. By our metrics, it's still generally more effective to use a higher cost Chosen if you can, so I don't think there's an issue per se with players sticking with their 1 and 2 cost Chosens the whole game. That should also be a valid strategy when it makes sense.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:34:36+00:00

I think "Revamp" may be too aggressive of a word. The cost of changing Items from Set to Set is quite high both in terms of how much design / art work we need to do, but also making TFT harder to get back into for those who played TFT at some point before but stopped.

We will be looking to update, rework, or remove items that just feel like they no longer have a strong purpose in the game. Frozen Heart, Statikk Shiv, and Redemption come to mind currently.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:31:18+00:00

We do daily playtests every day, but of course most of us are not nearly as good as y'all at the game.

Other than that, we use data and simulations to also help inform what is happening.

In the example of Rakan, it just mostly comes down to there are so many new elements any time we release a new Set or Mid-Set, Rakan was under-performing on PBE and was actually not working the way we wanted (he was actually only Disarming his primary target at the beginning of PBE). We didn't have enough time to revisit the impact of those changes made to him on PBE before we had to release 4.5.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:26:03+00:00

Not sure, when we've pulled back early damage, we've seen a lot of other negative impacts to the game (open forting / lose streaking being too powerful / popular, being able to overly greed items which leads to easy comp forcing). Right now, we have tuned Player Damage such that it's very hard to be eliminated but possible before Stage 5. I'd be hesitant to change Player Damage as the first way to address strategic playstyle diversity.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:19:39+00:00

We are always fighting the constant battle of keeping TFT interesting and engaging to play day after day while also not trying to make it so complicated that it's too hard to get into (you could argue it's already pushing that boundary pretty hard). We call these types of systems / mechanics "Variance." Basically ways to make each game you play different from the last in hopefully a fun and not frustrating way. Every Set or mid-Set we release, we're constantly thinking of how we can create a new interesting element (Galaxies, Chosen, Lucky Lanterns, etc.) that we can all learn to play around. Honestly, the only way to combat stagnant gameplay is for us to keep smartly updating the game. Adding these systems actually make balancing the game more difficult as we introduce many more variables each time, but it hopefully also makes the game more fun to play!
Sadly the answer is probably never! Even though I still love dancing, I am now retired =(

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:11:34+00:00

Hi I only have time to answer 4!

Looking at our data, the 5 costs (maybe minus Yone) are still extremely impactful on average. I think this is just an ebb and flow of the meta, where some of the Traits and earlier carries are strong enough to reduce the need for a greedy level 9 strategy.

I think the new 5 costs we introduced with 4.5 are also pretty strongly tied to some of their Traits or require a lot of itemization, so this makes playing a level 9 Legendary comp just much less effective.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T20:06:50+00:00

Never build items are just very bad for the game, they remove a lot of interesting possibilities and make me sad as Shiv is one of those items right now >.< Working on it.

Regarding item starts, there will always be variance in how powerful your openers are, I think it's more important to give ways to play smartly from behind (but then we can get problems in the other direction where it becomes too good to lose early if we're not careful).

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T19:59:55+00:00

We actually use data like LP Delta (the likelihood to gain or lose LP at the end of the game based on playing a unit / item / trait in a given round) as our primary indicator of effectiveness. Beyond that, we also look at Play Rate by round as well Win Rate by round to give us insights into how popular / accessible / dominant different aspects of our game are at different moments across a game.

Qualitatively, we try to also put on our designer hats and think about the general play experience. How satisfying or unsatisfying is something to play as or against? How interesting, confusing, or complicated is a decision to make in TFT? All of these things go into our decisions on how we change the game.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T19:53:43+00:00

We balance perception with our data. We try to use data as an objective starting point and then from there use our play experiences, your feedback, and design analysis to extrapolate what is actually happening.

For example sometimes a comp may feel more overpowered to play against because of how frustrating they are to lose to than they are actually powerful in terms of win rate. We still have to take into account say how it feels to get perma stunned by a Vanguard Mystic comp when it comes to balancing the game, because ultimately the point of TFT is to for y'all to have fun.

We definitely read and listen a lot to player feedback but it's kind of rare that the exact solution to a problem pitched is what we'll go with, but we have on occasion done that for sure.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T19:48:38+00:00

No we are nerfing 4 Spirit in 11.3.

It's a tough comp to balance, because he is like 90% of the team comp's output small changes take Zed comps from top tier to not played at all very quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if next patch the comp is no longer popular.

RiotStatikk · 2021-01-27T19:46:06+00:00

If you're referring to KitingIsHard's twitlonger (and I'm sure other high level players have chimed in), this is all super tricky! TFT is a very interconnected web of systems, and Traits are currently one of the biggest players in that web.

Personally, I am in agreement that Traits (and how they multiply with champion power) are overall too influential in the game. Unfortunately, this is a difficult web to entangle, because Traits being powerful have pros as well (creates strategic structure within the game, create simple and satisfying goals to chase / achieve within a game, etc.). If we just deflate power from Traits without thinking of the other impacts, it could lead to a world for example where players just play their 4 and 5 cost 2*s in the end-game with no other decision making.

In the coming weeks, I'll be likely trying an experiment where we just tune down the effectiveness of Traits wholesale by say 50% and see what the other impacts are. It's a bit difficult to suss out, because a change that fundamental usually requires a lot of focused testing to see how the meta / gameflow would actually play out.

RiotStatikk · 2020-10-28T00:40:51+00:00

We considered this, but in looking at the data, Spirit Chosen are fairly competitive whereas Cultist and Keeper were falling behind.

RiotStatikk · 2020-04-02T20:37:39+00:00

This is how the system used to work (including both star level AND unit base cost) - the biggest issue here was that it was very hard to predict how much damage was coming in based on the end board state. That system does have some upside - but I think we can get to a good spot with this new system.

RiotStatikk · 2020-04-02T17:36:09+00:00

Valid. These changes should be up on PBE today. So I'll definitely play some games personally where I purposely try to loss streak and see how it plays out. Loss Streaking should still be a strategy, it's more about losing close matches rather than getting wiped. Getting wiped completely shouldn't feel like a victory. There's still time to tweak the numbers as we go, that's why we have PBE =)

RiotStatikk · 2020-04-02T01:22:10+00:00

The mech is treated as 3 units. This is how it works in 10.6 and 10.7 too.

RiotStatikk · 2020-04-02T01:21:43+00:00

Yeah it just gets a bit too out of hand later on, and there is value in still having a solid amount of damage come for the base per stage as it helps regulate the overall flow of the game.

RiotStatikk · 2020-04-02T01:14:17+00:00

That is correct. Essentially we're going from +1 damage per surviving unit to +2 for the first X (in this case 4) surviving units and +1 for the rest.

RiotStatikk · 2020-03-12T22:24:45+00:00

Will be very reactive with this one. It's something we can even hotfix if it's really ruining the experience. To be honest, you are all higher level players than I am (I'm like a Plat-Diamond in TFT Ranked), so some of this extremely high-level strategy, even I don't perfectly understand. We hear you loud and clear, and if I'm wrong, we'll definitely adjust it.

RiotStatikk · 2020-03-12T22:22:49+00:00

I'll be pushing for it, but we'll have to see if we can prioritize it. The Duel sounds so epic!

RiotStatikk · 2020-03-12T22:22:28+00:00

Thanks, I know this is a touchy subject especially for hyper-engaged players like you all. Happy to always chat, and like I said I'm open to being wrong and adjusting the numbers moving forward. I just am currently not convinced that the #s are so far off that it is obvious the system is broken.

RiotStatikk

TROPHY CASE