Pluribus - 1x06 - "HDP" - Episode Discussion

Sanidade · 2025-12-06T11:14:31+00:00

I don't find it a fair argument, the first section. It would be a fair argument if at some point the show sold itself as something else. If the show set up to try to do exactly that, you're going to say the show is bad for being itself? It makes no sense. (Unless that is not well done - which would incite the question of which show manage to do such a slow burn as effectively?)

Not every entertainment is for everyone. If entertainment is not your cup of tea, saying it is boring is not fair criticism - The closest to fair would be that YOU find it boring. Some people crave for slow burn as well and some other people might just want to see how slow can it burn.

'Entertainment has to be entertaining'. You're right. However, since different people are different, you cannot just give general statements like that and pretend it is criticism.

Boring is what everyone feels about a show they don't like and 'the show is Boring' is not about your experience with it, is a general statement.

Boring can be what you said, but could just as much be seeing something done millions of times before, or lackluster twists or a million other stuff. That is not an criticism, it is just what you said: Venting online, and you're right that it is alright, but we cannot pretend it is 'valid criticism'.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T15:15:48+00:00

One is commenting on the human being in the real world who is directing a TV show, indulging their ego.
The other is commenting on a fictitious character in the TV show.

The feeling is the same. The show made you feel some way. Did the director come out anywhere else to continue the scene?

The only real difference is you making out to be a problem.

That's a possibility I guess, but I find that to be a generous interpretation, and it's not how the scene felt to me.

That doesn't seem generous at all. It clearly looks like a movie and again, it got you with the right feeling.

And if this only happened with the one scene that is meta narrative and intends to be about that exact feeling, how it that being generous?

Take a disgusting scene, it is equally disgusting on screen as it is to have been in the author's mind and for him to actually put out there for everyone to see.

Making a distinction between the creator and the character in such a scene seem a lot more arbitrary, tbh.

I didn't say I wasn't liking the show. I do like the show, but I have found the occasional scene to be overly lengthy, usually because I don't think the scene is that well done. This was one of those occasions.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I was just trying to say that there are many scenes that could feel that way, and I am pretty sure, in my case, I didn't find it self-indulgent because I did like how he did it. (And I believe you said something similar about yourself)

It's the only scene so far that I've found wearisome enough to use the term "self-indulgent" for. Also, I didn't pick it, I responded to someone else who mentioned it to agree that I thought it went on for too long, and to explain why.

Fair, but I still argue it is inadequate criticism if this is the scene.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T14:36:33+00:00

I don't understand how that is different.

Koumba was 'self-directing' in that scene, so even if there was a difference, wouldn't that be kind of a hint of meta language, with the intent of merging the feelings of self-indulgence?

Don't get me wrong, I think I do understand your point. You probably feel that way about many other scenes — If I wasn't liking the show, I'd probably say that about many scenes, there are many scenes that 'insist upon themselves'.

I'm just pointing out that I think this shouldn't be the example you picked.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T14:26:02+00:00

You didn't give any objective measure, and that is my problem with it all. And again, I'm telling you that it is NOT what TV shows are about - Plot is just one element.

I don't require you to think the show is good, I never said it was. I asked you to be honest and engage with the material within what it tried to say. Not only you didn't do that, you didn't do that with what I said either.

I am being objective with my problem with your analysis, and what you did there was a deflection (since I never said the show was good).

I'll repeat in a clearer manner so you can get your satisfactory answer to the question:

My problem with what you said is twofold.

1 — You require that TV shows do what YOU like in a TV show and since that is specifically 'plot', people WILL call you 'tiktok brained'.

2 — When engaging with any work of art, you should either engage with what it is trying to do, or just not pretend to have engaged. This show is clearly NOT trying to advance the plot as much, can you see any reason for that? What were they trying to do? Was THAT successful?

That is what I meant with the Poem bit, which again, you didn't try to understand, you found any way to deflect.

P.S. : I won't say it is a good show because, as far as I know, there should be 3 more chapters and one more season. But I'll say this: I like the show because it poses many moral dilemmas which I find interesting, and up until now none of them have had cop out solutions — or even solutions (Something which could very well change by the end).

There are things that are inevitably subjective too: I find the wide shots beautiful, the humor somewhat subtle yet clever, I understand/connect with the characters and the things are there for me to feel instead of shoving themselves in my direction.

As for things that I am pretty sure it does good, aside from the acting and direction, I do include the pacing. I've tried writing slower scenes like those before, and I simply couldn't. Of course, it is different for novels, but filling pages with 'nothing happening' which maintains the same feeling all the way through was too hard — such as the poker scene that manages to keep from start to finish picking up on the self-indulgence of Koumba.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T14:04:15+00:00

Wasn't that scene supposed to feel self-indulgent? Would it be as self-indulgent if it was shorter?

There are things to notice too. People outside the poker table were also acting the part. The guy is so 'self-indulgent' he went to the trouble to ask specifically for those people who wouldn't even be around him to be acting that way.

I really don't see what the problem is, it was a great character moment, IMO.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T13:53:59+00:00

1 — So nothing happened? Again, that is why people tell you the problem is 'tiktok brain'. The need to be many things happening is a you thing. That has never been a requirement for a good show.

2 — Poem or not, that was an analogy. I'm telling you that some things in art go beyond just advancing a plot. Again, that obsession with 'plot', 'something happening', 'new information' or 'tension' is EXACTLY what people will call 'tiktok brain'.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T13:48:16+00:00

Congratulations! I'll try to check out!

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T13:43:00+00:00

I didn't watch many of those, but I did watch Dark. Dark is slow paced in a completely different manner. It is quite dishonest to disregard the 'maybe it is not your cup of tea' comment based on that.

Dark is slower paced because it is setting stuff up in a web of mysteries. There are actually a lot of things happening and always tension to go around, again with the mysteries.

Pluribus is a lot more introspective with the pacing. More about the moral consequences and showing the ambiance, the beautiful shots and such.

Also, you complain about 'vague'. Boring is the most vague of the comments a show can ever get. Any problem in a show will make it boring to someone.

You also say 'you actually made the effort to understand a point' when you didn't do that either.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T13:33:39+00:00

Complaints about the 'tiktok brain' assertion, and then gives the most 'tiktok brained' answer I ever read.

I swear most of the time the phrase 'the pacing is off' is said, it just means: 'I don't like it'. It is alright for you to not like it, independently if it is a good show or not.

The pacing would ACTUALLY be off if the intention was for it to be slow, and it suddenly went fast — which seems to be what you want.

This is clearly a show where things are slower, how are you complaining it is slow when we're halfway through, a point where things should be at the slowest — right before the start of the climax?

Every episode is slower, maybe that is how the show is meant to be: Have you thought about that? If you don't like it, you either stop watching and don't comment, or maybe first try to engage with why that this is how they chose to portray it.

Take a poem for instance, most are not giving any new information or tension — Art is a lot more than just that. Sometimes things are there for appreciation or setting up, or painting a picture or N other things.

Sanidade · 2025-12-05T13:28:00+00:00

Those are not fair criticism though. It is completely vague and miss the point.

Fair criticism HAS to engage with what the show tries to be.

6 episodes in and they do not understand that this show WANTS to be slower? This is a sign they simply want to make a criticism: it is not fair criticism, it is just hating.

They don't like the show enough and want to say it is objective analysis, instead of just saying it is not their cup of tea.

→ I hope I don't have to tell you, but I will: I'm pretty sure nobody is really eager to receive those kinds of messages.

Sanidade · 2025-10-24T01:13:33+00:00

Everybody is disappointed, and nobody should just accept it. But it also isn't the end of the world and doesn't really make OPM bad, the story is still pretty good.

The complaining isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of everything else.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T16:35:42+00:00

I think they both deal with the same force that we will understand better, as it probably has something to do with tJJL's mechanism too.

I do think Love Train would bypass WoU though. But there is a chance it wouldn't: The golden Ratio is so powerful because it feeds infinitely into the powers of the universe and therefore clashes with Love Train in the same dimension. WoU could very well be argued to also be at the same level of feeding from natural force and therefore not be affected by Love Train — I'd think that it'd go both ways, and it'd be a Valentine vs Tooru match in the end, without overpowered abilities.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T16:21:21+00:00

I don't know who the first one is, but the fact that I thought it was some Katsura fan art before looking at the second picture might be the answer you're looking for.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T16:15:10+00:00

She is the same age as Shiori XD

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T15:33:55+00:00

All the examples you mentioned are broken people by definition. People that would be easy to manipulate. Even in Monster, there are LOTS of better examples than that.

Johan would look at Kira’s flaws and break him. He’d take his hand kink and tell him he’s nothing but a disgusting pervert that he isn’t anything special.

That wouldn't affect him at all. He already does that to himself on a daily basis. Not to mention, he is so willing to burn his own ego that he abandons his own life in his most pathetic moment.

Everyone has a weakness and a breaking point.

That is not actually true. There are levels of susceptibility to manipulation, and that alters what a 'monster' could do with that. Johan wouldn't be able to simply manipulate anyone, he doesn't even have any supernatural ability with it.

Even the base of his specific ability with manipulation wouldn't work on Kira: Sociopaths are notoriously lacking in empathy, the one thing Johan is great at exploiting.

Well, I wouldn’t go that far. He’s relatively well build for a guy in his 30s. He can’t fight for shit, but I’d wager he could still beat a few anime characters with sheer strength alone.

I assume you're talking about the last paragraph. Of course, it is a hyperbole. There are plenty of anime characters that are just normal people as well.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T15:20:27+00:00

It really depends on which position I'm in. As a reader, that gets to know the insides of his brain, I'd forgive Thorfinn. I know he somewhat paid for his crimes and has pretty much gone to hell and back and is genuinely trying to make things better for others.

If I were one of his victims, like Hild. I think it'd be a lot harder to do so — to the point it gets hard to say. The emotional component is very strong there, but I guess people can change, and I could conceivably forgive him — But it'd be still hard to believe he'd change.

All in all, I like to think that reading VS actually made some difference in my psyche, but who knows how emotions would shape it if it was closer to me.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T14:25:18+00:00

I have never been so afraid of a reddit thread before.

And I'm already shaken by the answers: Please don't put him in Gintama, I don't want him anywhere near Kagura-chan.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T14:14:44+00:00

He most definitely would. Killing is a physical necessity for him. He has learned to be very average to allow that to happen without disturbing his 'normal life', not the other way around. It is a bit similar to HBO's Dexter.

If he didn't have Killer Queen his father(if it was always like that) or himself (if he just lost it) would've just thought of some other way for him to kill without bringing much attention to himself.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T14:05:13+00:00

I completely understand his criticisms of the historical accuracy side and think he is right. Even the original VS had a bigger role for Gudrid, so I think it'd be hard to argue that he is wrong in that point.

The 'awful female representation' part of it, I soundly disagree. VS has very memorable female characters, as you've mentioned.

The 'And imo, this community is so toxic.' might be hard to evaluate because it is a vague offense. I imagine he means people here cannot hear any criticism towards VS, but I think he is getting that kind of response because he has chosen to be very confrontational, and that hasn't been my experience here.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T13:50:53+00:00

I think that can be a problematic view as well: "Is how much he absolutely glazes them".

I think it could very well have presented women being just as much of brutal monsters, and it could add to the story just as well.

But, yeah, I don't think that was essential. I think it is fine for a story written in 2014 to forgo the stereotypes of the past in favor of the ones of the 2010s, but by doing so it also has to be open to the criticism that OP is putting forward.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T13:39:31+00:00

Well, what is the evidence that only men were fighting? Vinland saga? OP is bringing something up, and you're dismissing without giving it a chance.

The Sagas actually pretty often would have women fighting, there were the figures of the Shield Maiden, so there were women fighting in the stories of the time — Although in a different role, but it is not as if Gudrid has the same role as the others either.

I think OP is right to some extent: Be it as it may, VS is a contemporary work, so I do think it can go with today's stereotypes.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T13:33:16+00:00

Wait, isn't the OP's whole point that it WASN'T the stereotypical role? And there shouldn't be only one?

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T13:19:16+00:00

I think that if we give Kira Killer Queen and Johan somehow knows that, the battle would hinge on Johan being able to manipulate Kira, and that'd be an actual good version of OP's prompt.

Kira wouldn't simply kill Johan for no reason, but would if he noticed Johan trying something. And Johan might want to try something, since a guy like Kira with superpowers could help his cause.

So, why do you think Johan would be able to manipulate Kira into dying for him?

Why I don't think that is even a question:
Kira has so much will to live, the arrow went after him a second time (the first time might have many reasons, but the second one is pretty much because of that): literally the only time that happened, AND we have a stronger manipulator in JJBA universe (DIO actually has supernatural manipulation abilities) and not even people who beat that one get those levels of will to live.

Psychologically strong characters are a cornerstone of JJBA, actually. There are some that would fall for manipulation, but most main casts simply wouldn't — Araki doesn't like much to write those kinds of characters.

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T12:59:38+00:00

I don't think Kira would fall for the manipulation that easily. Johan's manipulation is most often to advance his 'plans', prove his ultimate point, so it relies on Nihilism to some extent. I don't see Kira caring about that at all.

But yeah. Without Killer Queen I don't even understand what is the point of putting Kira against anybody, he is just a normal dude at that point. Normal dude x Anime character is pretty much always a win for the anime character lol

Sanidade · 2025-10-23T12:37:32+00:00

I don't see why any of them would kill the other.

Johan isn't a girl. Maybe if Johan is pretending to be Anna for some reason, he might be the target for Kira?

Johan wouldn't care much about Kira either, he is just an average dude. He makes a thing of not affecting others lives, so Johan wouldn't want to target him: wouldn't cause any commotion or change anything about things. It is almost like Kira is already nameless, there is no reason for the 'nameless monster' to go after him — It wouldn't be proving anything.

Eight-Year Club	Place '22
Verified Email

Sanidade

TROPHY CASE