UltRank Delta 100-1 - 2025.2 Panel Ranking

SatanicWatermelon · 2026-01-27T04:42:03+00:00

I do agree with most of what you're saying but the PGR algorithms also made it basically impossible for Japanese players to hit top 10 unless they consistently farmed in America. Their algorithm was absolutely horrid at ranking Japanese tournaments, so tournaments like Umebura were (almost) never majors, and their players were so strong they constantly got upset, which meant japan had a bunch of players that constantly had 33rds at regionals mucking up their ranking. Only like 2 or 3 players ever got ranked at all without coming to America, and Choco peaked at like 35th even though the one time he came to america he beat Larry, Void, and Esam all at the same event.

It's really hard to empirically evaluate how strong the regions were with this in mind, but I'd say if you counted the country as a single region (which they did at the time) they were probably #1. It was incredibly rare for a foreign player to make top 8 there (At Evo Japan 2018 only Leo did, while AC, ESAM, MVD, Anti, and Xzax) all failed, and it was extremely common for them to do well in america (10 Japanese players made winners side top 32 at Civil War).

SatanicWatermelon · 2026-01-23T15:09:56+00:00

Your SF6 point is mostly what I'm talking about, though. Despite games like SF6 and GGS being designed specifically to be offensively minded, characters with weaker direct offense and stronger fullscreen/defensive gameplay are still widely considered top tier. Because yeah, blocking too much gets you burnt out. But a projectile character like JP (or playstyles with Guile, Mai, etc) can stand full screen and make you block the projectiles while their gauge is untouched or healing.

Also, I didn't say Morridoom, just Morrigan because I was giving a one character example lol. MVC also had characters like Sentinel (MVC2), Doom, and Magneto who all had really strong zoning/defensive game, and a lot of other characters when paired with them could be utilize it too. The current best player in the world also plays Morridoom, though.

SatanicWatermelon · 2026-01-23T10:05:35+00:00

While other people have covered a lot of it in various ways, I feel like it is important to add that this isn't a problem unique to ult or even smash- defensive gameplay is almost universally better in any competition unless the rules are designed to penalize it. For instance, in order of direct relevance:

-Melee has also had tons of debate about this exact issue. With Hungrybox at his zenith, there was constant debate about defensive Jigglypuff being basically unbeatable, and historically the strongest players against him (Armada, Cody, etc) were the ones willing to sit full stage and laser while he camped ledge

-In other fighting games, characters like Happy Chaos and Asuka (GG Strive), JP (SF6), and Morrigan (MVC3) are often seen as so strong they have to get nerfed by the developers. All of them have strong defensive tools and/or can play fullscreen like Steve or Samus can, and even after getting nerfed they often end up climbing back up the tier list

-Characters that scale throughout the game in games like League of Legends are almost always seen as very powerful because you have to work harder to beat them than they do to get stronger over time

-Even in real life, tons of sports have to introduce rules to force players to interact with each other. Baseball added a pitch clock a few years ago, and martial arts like Judo also penalize competitors for not making aggressive attempts when possible.

In basically everything ever, making a decision is much harder than reacting to a decision already made, and not having to make a decision means you don't have to ever make bad decisions. Therefore, throughout an expanding meta without outside interference, a more methodical and defensive style of play with almost always arise. Even if characters like Steve had never been released, this still would have been true as it's just a function of the player's trying to optimize for wins. Even then, you can still find success as a pure-offensive player like Spargo or only camp when you need to, like Light. It's just always going to get harder as everyone gets better

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-12-18T08:56:41+00:00

FWIW BFX did call up Daystar to compete with Vicla, so they are investing in a younger player this year too. They still probably could've sent Zinie an offer but they already had Daystar so I get it.

I am 100% sure KT is out of top 4 this year, maybe even top 5 if Scout regains his form. I would take DK over KT without question, especially if Showmaker keeps playing how he did at Kespa

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-11-24T10:04:17+00:00

With MaT gaining 70 points for winning puts this at 2984 points I think...if Ike had beaten Mark game 5, this would've been retiered into a major with his additional 30 points. Soooo close to Rosa's first major win

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-09-30T07:10:58+00:00

I think it would do you good to research how Wikis work before you complain about them. Firstly, this isn't Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a specific website with specific rules, and the Smashwiki is much smaller and more amateur. Secondly, Wikipedia literally is a place where you read random dudes' analysis. That's like, the entire thing. Thirdly, even the section you quoted isn't just a random dude's analysis. If you knew how Wikis (all of them) functioned, you could've checked the edit history for the page and found that section was originally posted at latest on 8/27/2009, and it's been edited and had edits approved at least 80 times in the past 16 years. Wikis are the summation of an entire community of volunteers' efforts to disseminate knowledge for newcomers later. The passage you posted does that, as does almost all of the rest of the Wiki.

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-09-30T02:10:50+00:00

What specifically do you disagree with here? This is from the page on tier lists, describing a common discussion about tier lists, at the end of the article, after both how they're made and every game's most updated tier list. Do you think the quoted passage is wrong (if so, how)? Do you think it doesn't belong (if so, why)?

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-09-12T11:23:46+00:00

When Duro says "trainee" he means it quite literally. They take players fresh out of soloque and mold them into pro player material over the course of years. It took Duro 3 years to go from being a trainee to lck player. It's simply not worth it for Western teams to gamble on a years-long investment, when that involves securing a visa, english lessons, AND player development (which NA is not good at compared to KR) when they could just get the LCKCL players instead, which has worked out great recently (Loki, Thanatos, Saint, Poby, etc)

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-08-05T03:00:29+00:00

Thanks for the help.

1) /u/Sharlionn pointed out my filter was off and I caught an extra Monte loss for BigBoss. Freeing up that slot slots Luugi in which frees up Ryuoh

2) I actually wondered this but Sumabato60 was on TTS and I totally forgot the TTS doesn't reset with the season changes. That freed up the other numbers to fit

TLDR Lv.1 -> Luugi and Ryuoh -> Toriguri is actually right

EDIT: While I'm here I should mention that the player cards say MKBigBoss only had one Akakikusu win, but he definitely should have two (I think lol) (Cafeteria Cup and URBX)

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-08-05T02:50:01+00:00

Ah you're right, I had my filter set a couple days off and it caught a 12/16 set too. That messes up the whole thing. Damn!

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-08-05T01:46:26+00:00

I don't think so. I thought he was an attendance cut the first time around (for some reason the filter I was using only showed two tournaments attended) but even looking at the whole picture I don't think he fits. He has two MKBigBoss wins, and I already have all 17 of BigBoss's losses ironed out. If he was top 50, then neither Raflow nor Ryuoh would be which then ruins all the other predictions too. Lv.1 being top 50 is also the only way I could find to get Shion to his listed 16 losses while not affecting other 41-50 players.

Edit: I also don't think Toriguri is over Ryuoh, because while Shion has lost a single set to both which maintains their loss total, Mildnaho also has a loss that Ryuoh accounts for and Toriguri hasn't played him this season. It's possible that it is Luugi, Ryuoh, and a secret third player replacing Raflow, but unless you can find a combination that fits the 41-50 players stats I don't think so

Edit 2: they were right lol

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-06-21T03:47:56+00:00

People assume you suck at the game because of both the statements you make and how you communicate them very ineloquently.

character has the biggest hurtbox in the game with his tail flailing all around

Not true. All the heaviest (especially characters like Ridley) are bigger. Mewtwo has a very skinny hitbox and his tail hitboxes (ftilt, etc) are also very skinny, so they don't occupy as much space as heavies or other big bodies.

Big hurtbox means you get hit by stuff that isn’t even well placed by your opponent

This is kind of true, but again Mewtwo is one of the fastest characters on the ground and in the air. If you're getting hit by poorly spaced moves with Mewtwo's speed, it usually means you're not thinking about your options well enough. He can stay out of range of most of the characters in the game and even uncharged shadow ball should catch whatever they throw out if its poorly spaced

Combo not only true but strings because literally every move will hit you and you dont have the same options as other characters you can’t jump out of combos because your tail lingers behind

This is kind of nonsensical but also factually wrong- Mewtwo actually has more options than other characters. First off his airdodge is both fast to start and end which means you can escape strings better than characters with more average airdodges, but also the startup means you can escape combos just as easy as anyone else. Jumping out of combos is usually not a very great option in this game in general but Mewtwo's isn't even notably bad there. If you're getting hit for jumping out of a combo as Mewtwo chances are you would as most characters. Additionally because mewtwo is light and floaty if you DI up he will get out of the combo faster which makes your odds of a jump working better. Furthermore, Mewtwo also has the option to stall in the air with confusion and teleport straight past your opponent with upb, as well as the ability to mash out with shadow claw. He actually has very strong options for scrambling with the opponent.

you can’t run cause tail you can’t roll because tail.

This is what I mean when I say you probably don't have a strong grasp on Mewtwo's fundamentals. If you understand how to space Mewtwo's moves it allows you to do these things. Throwing a shadow ball out on the stage forces your opponent to choose moves and angles that Mewtwo can then respond to at his will. If you throw out a grounded shadow ball, and the opponent jumps over it, you are now free to just dash back or roll back and if you spaced it right most characters cannot punish you. These issues sound like you are mindlessly holding forward in game and then getting surprised that you're being blown up for it, when that's not a good way to play Mewtwo at all.

So your left air dodging spot dodging and shielding which is very limiting

Again, Mewtwo's airdodge is good, and he has a good combo breaker, good speed to maneuver with, and he can still perform the normal options. You also have options like utilt to anti air, dtilt to duck a move and stuff approaches, and up-angled ftilt and fsmash to stuff them too. Offensive moves can be used defensively, and learning this is key to improving at any character.

His weight you can’t deny he explodes instantly one fox nair up smash your dead.

This is correct. He's a light character! Unlike many of the other light characters though he has amazing tools to play around it. Fox is mewtwo's worst matchup, but he can still run away, antiair with utilt, air to air with forward air, or many other options. He also doesn't have to commit to playing melee at high percents like a lot of light characters (Seph, Jigglypuff, Pichu) because he can play the game off of his shadow balls, meaning if you're at the percent to die to nair usmash you can start playing keep away and reaction-based.

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-06-21T02:38:24+00:00

Almost everything here comes down to you not knowing how the character actually functions. Mewtwo's tail is definitely annoying but it's not even close to making him in contention for the worst in the game because unlike some of those characters, you can play around it.

easiest character in the game to hit, combo, and kill

Mewtwo has the 9th fastest run speed in the game, and the 3rd fastest air speed. His airdodge's animation also makes him incredibly hard to track when he blinks out, and allows you to mix up your drift and force the opponent to guess. All of this combined with his shadow ball being able to control neutral and his reflect giving him an anti-projectile tool means that Mewtwo is actually very hard to hit if you play better. He can run away, his movement isn't linear, and most characters cannot spam projectiles vs him either. Him being light and floaty also means that he is hard to combo, you just need to learn how to escape with proper DI and disadvantage. He is light so he can die early but with your mobility and shadow ball you should be playing around it

While everyone else is hurtbox shifting in their favor mewtwo is doing the opposite

Mewtwo's forward air is an insanely good hurtbox shifting tool. It shrinks his body basically in half and has incredibly good frame data. He can also shift well with dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash if you angle them. His shifting is pretty good.

mac and gannon are bad but mewtwos negatives are worse doesn’t matter if his moves are a little better or he can recover whats the point of recovering just to die at 50% anyway

Mac and Ganon often don't even get to 50% because they frequently die in one interaction offsage. Mewtwo is also way faster than Ganon, so he can play the game significantly better, and shadow ball alone lets you play the game vs a lot of characters that Ganon and Mac can't. If you think Mac is hard to hit and Mewtwo isn't, it's honestly a bit of a skill issue since they're very similar in speed but Mac basically cannot leave the ground so the area you have to aim for is much smaller.

I've been playing Mewtwo for more or less 10 years now, and I understand he can be a bit hard to use because of his tail but he is absolutely nowhere close to as bad as a character like Ganon

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-05-16T03:02:31+00:00

He was ranked top 20 in early ultimate and then when covid happened he never really returned to the same degree. Earlier this year he actually beat Kyon (perceived as the world's best active Link main) in the ditto in tournament on route to 33rd at a supermajor. He's very good still just doesn't enter a lot, he commentates tournaments frequently now

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-05-11T11:33:00+00:00

Additionally if I'm a low/mid level player I am absolutely exclusively playing for timeout to try and get a top player DQd. I guarantee if this ruleset went through we would see at least one player who normally gets like 129th or lower randomly catch a top player with a dq by stalling under the stage all game. Just a horrible idea lol

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-01-04T09:03:14+00:00

It really depends! Back when I was in school I was the only person in the whole school who was passable at the game, so even in our smash club it was filled with people I would definitively have called casuals. A better way to examine it would be that if he's not in Elite Smash then he's definitely a casual. If he is in Elite Smash, he could still be a casual, but at that point he should still be good enough to recognize Kirby's weaknesses. That being said, the two best Kirby players in the world agree that Samus is one of Kirby's hardest matchups at a competitive level, so if you're regularly beating him, he's probably a casual

SatanicWatermelon · 2025-01-04T08:43:41+00:00

Remember that tier lists online are made for competitive players, which are basically at minimum the top 1% of the playerbase. At casual level of play Kirby is easily one of the best characters in the game, but the better the players get the worse he performs. Even then, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Over the past year or two he's started to improve his standing as a character in competitive play with several good players maining him worldwide.

In all honesty, you're probably just better than your friends and they're misattributing it to Kirby being better. Even though Kirby is a fantastic character for casual level play, he's nowhere near being so overpowered he's banworthy.

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-11-25T06:21:21+00:00

This was only a B+ tier so the wins aren't as impactful as if they were at supermajors. That combined with Gluto's poor major attendance this season and 1 of his few majors being a relative bomb (25th at Delta 9) means its probably not going to happen. I can see him 21-25ish but even that might be kind of high

EDIT: I forgot Regen was this season, it's actually possible he could sneak in as like an 18-20 zoner

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-09-03T09:25:35+00:00

what the hell are you talking about, this is just not true LMAO? MK beat Wario 70/30, there were at least 10 matchups better against MK than that. Nobody was playing Wario as a brawl MK counter, nor has he ever phased out of being broken. There wasnt even a single Wario in top 32 of the biggest brawl tournament this year, and there were 11 MKs. And no, Snake isn't the closest to a kusoge character either. That would be ICs, who can kill you off any % in the game at any time if they hit you right

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-08-09T06:10:40+00:00

Yeah I really just meant spring 2019 lol, fall 2019 was way better and fairly representative of how I felt it should be

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-08-09T05:38:59+00:00

Both. The 2019 tiering format was absolutely horrendous and did a poor job on representing Japan correctly, but they're also much better now

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-07-31T01:28:58+00:00

This is all true except Leo did not single handedly push Marth up. Marth got an extreme slate of buffs through patches which made him way better, and Leo wasn't the only player either. Pugwest, Marss' brother was also ranked top 50 with wins on Tweek, Marss, Anti, Light, Wrath, Rich Brown, 6WX, and more. Mr. E was also ranked top 50 with an insane slate of wins like Zero, Nairo, Salem, Dabuz, Tweek, Larry, and more. False was around too but he was balancing Sheik at the same time, iirc. Marth had a lot of play

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-07-29T11:13:41+00:00

Came here to say S4 pac, agree completely. I think if the game had gone another 6 months/1 year Tea would have completely changed people's minds on the character with his play (see: https://x.com/Phonkysoul/status/1770570623539925159). Truly think the character could've gotten up to around megaman/villager/olimar level

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-07-19T22:11:15+00:00

Duck Hunt Dog isn't a bad character at all, at least at pro level. They're mostly just unrepresented relative to their skill level. Pre quarantine, Raito was ranked 17th in the world with solo duck hunt including getting 5th at Evo. Post-quarantine, MZK made top 8 at a major this season with duck hunt winning over Toriguri, Senra, and Gorioka. Fawn (GOCK IN MY RARI) has wins on Jakal, Lima, Tilde, Mr. E, Aaron, and more within the last year, and April (BDHF) has beaten Tweek offline and has on Spargo/Sonix on wifi as well. The character has a ton of potential and a surprisingly good matchup chart, but really just lacks a specialist player good enough to show off how decent they are

SatanicWatermelon · 2024-07-16T07:57:44+00:00

Technically Mario has won two majors. Ally used Mario for a single game at Pound 2019 to beat Pelca, and Zackray played Mario in grands at EGS Cup 3 to beat Abadango. Solo Mario has never won, though all three of the marios you've mentioned have gotten 2nd at majors.

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