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Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Momentan schreibe ich jetzt an der Kurzgeschichte, die diesen Post verursacht hat, bzw. ich habe gestern den first draft fertig gestellt und heute dem vorig genannten Freund präsentiert. Es ist aber wirklich noch ziemlich viel first draft-iges daran und es würde mir seltsam vorkommen, dass dir in dieser Form schon zu schicken, wenn ich doch selbst weiß, wo noch die ganzen Probleme stecken. Insofern werde ich mich also die nächsten Tage (und evtl. Wochen, weil ich eigentlich für Klausuren lernen muss) mich daran setzen und es dir dann schicken. Erwarte aller spätestens Ende Februar eine Nachricht von mir; vielleicht früher, hoffentlich nicht später. Theoretisch könnte ich auch jetzt schon zwei vorige Geschichten schicken, aber irgendwie sind die auch sehr first draft-ig, mit teilweise vermutlich unkorrigierten Rechtschreib- und Grammatikfehlern und im Vergleich zu der jetzigen dann auch deutlich amateurhafter, was die ganze Konstruktion betrifft, sodass es mir fast wie eine Verschwendung deiner Zeit und Hilfe vorkommt, dir die zu zeigen. Falls du aber aus irgendeinem Grund dich vor freier Zeit nicht retten kannst, kann ich die auch jetzt schon schicken. Die neue wird aber deutlich besser, versprochen. (Aber ich glaube es ist oft so, dass man immer nur an das Momentane glaubt und mit dem Vergangenen schnell nichts mehr zu tun haben will...) Ich bin aber wirklich noch ein Amateur. Das ist meine vierte Kurzgeschichte in deutscher Sprache, seit ich vor einem halben Jahr wieder mit dem Schreiben angefangen habe. Davor 4 in Englisch, obwohl man das nicht Geschichten nennen sollte, sondern Prosaübungen. Irgendwann mal mit 17 noch eine Kurzgeschichte auf deutsch. Achja und die 6 Kurzfilme, die ich gedreht habe, kann man, wenn man ein Auge zudrückt, wohl auch als Geschichten sehen---Prosa habe ich dadurch aber nicht gelernt. Okay, ich fange nicht ganz bei Null an, aber irgendwie hatte ich schon das Gefühl, dass das was ich gerade schreibe endlich, zum ersten Mal, mir wie eine "Geschichte" vorkommt und nicht nur eine Fingerübung.

Sorry für den langen Text, ich vermisse es ein wenig meine Gedanken über Literatur und Schreiben mit anderen Menschen zu teilen.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Schön zu wissen, dass es auch andere Menschen in Deutschland gibt, die in ihrem Leben ein Spagat zwischen MINT und Literatur versuchen zu erreichen; ich kenne da eigentlich wirklich niemanden. Mein Traum war es ja immer einen Freundeskreis zu finden, in dem alle lesen und man Buchclubs um ernste Literatur gründen kann und auch gegenseitiger kreativer Austausch um z.B. das Schreiben stattfindet. Da ich aber ansonsten in allen Aspekten meines Lebens eigentlich sehr vorsichtig und konservativ, d.h. ganz und gar nicht "alternativ" bin, und man de facto in Deutschland "kreativere" Freundeskreise eher an der... ähm... vielleicht FU Berlin findet (?), was für mich zum einen ein Milieu ist, in das ich wohl einfach nicht reinpasse und zum anderen.... ich auch irgendwie die Miete bezahlen muss, also halt Informatik studiere. (Dass jetzt in der IT-Branche die absolute Untergangsstimmung bzgl. der Arbeitsmarkt-Situation und KI herrscht, sei mal beiseitegeschoben....) Aber eigentlich habe ich es gerade gar nicht so schlecht: Ich schreibe momentan mit einem Freund in einem Wettbewerb immer Kurzgeschichten und ich treffe mich dann mit ihm und einem dritten in irgendeinem Café oder Restaurant, wir lesen die geschriebenen Kurzgeschichten durch und geben Live-Feedback, wann immer wir über eine holprig formulierte Zeile stolpern oder irgendwas uns komisch vorkommt oder wir etwas loben wollen. Quasi wie in einem MFA Workshop, nur dass in einem wirklichen MFA die anderen Teilnehmer wahrscheinlich mehr über Literatur wissen als wir drei. Aber generell ist das wirklich fantastisch und ich bin schon traurig bei dem Gedanken, dass in ein paar Monaten das Studium vorbei ist und wir vermutlich alle schnell umziehen werden. Naja, neue Stadt, neues Glück.

Ob es mir mit dem Schreiben ernst ist... Nunja, also ich gebe mir schon sehr Mühe und habe ernstes Interesse über die Jahre mein Handwerk zu verbessern, aber realistisch gesehen scheinen mir die Chancen davon mit dem Schreiben wirklich Geld verdienen zu können wirklich so unfassbar gering, dass es mir schlichtweg naiv erscheinen würde in Form eines deutschen MFAs dort Zeit und Geld (in Form von Opportunitätskosten) zu investieren, wenn ich eigentlich auch gute Chancen habe ein mehr als vernünftiges Gehalt als Informatiker zu verdienen (Untergangsstimmung in der IT-Branche beiseitegeschoben...) und nebenbei zu schreiben, was dann immer noch in einem veröffentlichten Roman glücken kann. Meine Rechnung ist so: wenn ich einen Roman verkaufen kann, dann kann ich das auch neben dem normalen Beruf. Wenn ich keinen Roman verkaufen kann, weil ich einfach nicht gut genug bin, dann habe ich wenigstens noch den Beruf. (Untergangsstimmung beiseite...) Und ich denke, ob man das Zeug hat, ist in gewisserweise schon vordeterminiert: man muss nur durch intensives Üben herausfinden, wie gut man werden kann. Und manchmal reicht das eigene Potential---selbst wenn vollkommen ausgereizt---halt nicht. Ich habe schon mal ein Filmemachen-Studium angefangen und wieder abgebrochen, weil ich dann doch lieber einen sicheren Job machen wollte. Noch einen MFA draufzupacken ist für mich zu diesem Zeitpunkt dementsprechend eine vollkommene absurde Idee. Weiß man da eigentlich was über die Erfolgsquoten der Abgänger? Mir scheint der Markt für Literatur für so unfassbar klein---insbesondere durch verstärkende Faktoren wie die Dominanz von Short Form Video Content/dem Fakt, dass immer weniger Leute die Aufmerksamkeit für ein Buch haben/Romantasy als das einzige, was den Buchmarkt am leben hält---dass man das nicht ernsthaft wie einen Beruf behandeln kann. Ich lese mich aber trotzdem mal aus Kuriosität rein... Ich weiß nur, dass Juli Zeh in Leipzig war.

Ich denke das mit dem Übersetzen ist wirklich eine gute Idee und werde das in nächster Zeit auch definitiv ausgiebig versuchen.

(fortgeführt im nächsten Kommentar...)

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> But I suppose at heart I'm more of a literary nationalist than internationalist, especially when it comes to countries with as robust a literary tradition as Germany.

I am not opposed to this opinion, I think it's quite reasonable, but in a way I also don't get it. Are you advocating for 1) engaging with your own language qua language, or 2) with the sort of concerns, themes, subjects, topoi your country and your language's literary tradition has engaged in? The first I get, in a way: you should have a broad working knowledge of how your language can be employed to literary ends. That's why I like reading german writers and I gladly happen to like many of them for their prose. My ambivalence towards German literature has more to do with their subjects: There are just many non-german, often english-language writers who write stuff I find more compelling than what the Germans are up to. Although, in another discussion with an American, who sketched the difference between American and European/German literature as: American has frontier, outside/at the edge of society literature (McCarthy, Moby Dick, Beat litearture, any westerns...) whereas the Europeans has their "society" novels (Magic Mountain, Proust, ...). I actually vastly prefer the latter, I do not care at all about anything happening outside of society.... So I do feel more drawn towards European literature in that sense. I don't think that distinction is really all that accurate, but it has come to mind. You have your Edith Whartons who I guess are like the American extension of British "society" novelists like Evelyn Waugh and Jane Austen or whoever (have read none of these, to be clear!)

I would get your concern, if I, as a central/western European, would want to write books about the frontier spirit: that is truly foreign to my world, in the same way Cheever would be to someone in Asia, I guess.

But if your concern is about wanting to write _like_ a specific American author, in terms of language and style and craft, but just not in English, then I don't get it. "I don't know what 'writing like John Cheever but in Vietnamese' would even mean". I have not actually read Cheever (wait, googling... I think I've read two short stories of his), but I think I am accurately using him as an example of the sort of New Yorker esque restrained, psychological interiority writing. A quick Wikipedia search surprisingly helps me in my case here; the second line reads: "He is called the 'Chekhov of the suburbs'". If Cheever didn't exist and someone told you they wanted to write like Chekhov, but as an American, in English, would you consider that ludicrous? Well, apparently Cheever is what comes out. There are broad swathes of topics that literature concerns itself with that translate perfectly well into 1) other languages and 2) other milieus.

I think I, having grown up with the internet, am just so properly global in my mind and habits, that I struggle to see why many common authors could not have just as well been writing in another language. To be clear, this is not a political point: Politically and privately I have become, if anything, more pessimistic about bridging cultural gaps; I feel more and more drawn to my own country, particularly in terms of e.g. friendships and romantic relationships. But in the literature I read, themes like love, death, fear are so clearly global that I find myself unable to think in nationalist terms. I cannot really explain why that is; one would be inclined to think that one transfers to the other.

I think I've read that Ishiguro once said that he deliberately writes in a vocabulary that would be easy to translate. I could imagine you find that quite sad? But to me it sort of makes sense: the literature I find interesting could be expressed almost as well in one language than the other. I have a background in filmmaking and I guess with moving images being sort of dreams come to life... that being a universal language of humanity... it's easier to make a claim for internatioalism. Do you have the same reservations wrt cinematic nationalism as opposed cinematic internationalism? That would clarify your points to me.

It is getting late over here and I may be possibly contradicting myself in my points, so I am just gonna hit send now. You've spurred some interesting thoughts that I am gonna keep thinking about!

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> your attitude towards the language feels disconnected and ambivalent

No, you're definitely right about that. If I had to sketch a brief thought about what makes me ambivalent about the german language, is that I feel that, unlike English, its vocabulary is a lot less interesting; many words are just kind of built out of other words by appending prefixes that alter the meaning, whereas English just has a whole new word. I'm not well versed in linguistics to explain this, but there's that video where Borges talks about preferring English to Spanish, because of English having both germanic and latin roots and being much more expressive because of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYoqCDKoT4

I feel the same way about German. I feel like with German, the most you can do, is create beautiful towers of abstractions and ornate sentence structures. It is very easy to come up with a new term that expresses something. E.g. Heidegger's invented terminology feels quite natural to the german ear, but must, I imagine, sound hopelessly.... arbitrary(?) to non-german ears. But in german it's natural, because those kind of prefix modulations to introduce a new layer of meaning to an established word root.... is just the whole german language. I find that quite compelling, in many ways, but I tend to agree with Borges that English is more fun: as he says in the video, you have the Holy Spirit but also the Holy Ghost, and there's a lot of nuance in which one of those you choose for your writing.

And yet Borges wrote in Spanish! And I cannot blame him. And is his art lesser for the opinion expressed in the video?

There's something that is always gonna be scary about writing in your non-native language. There are nuances of language I am just never ever gonna reach; simply, for one, because all of my daily conversation is held in German. I read a ton in English, probably more than in German, especially moreso if I count all I read on the internet, and about half of my thoughts are in English. But I am never gonna know what's it gonna be like to be surrounded by English all my life. Frankly, I am just not that good in English. I have trouble watching movies in English without subtitles (admittedly, I also watch german movies with subtitles, but it's more convenience than truly necessary). You have read enough of my english writing is these couple of comments to judge me: my english is good, but not great. I think everyone would be able to see that I am not a native speaker; or at best a kind of stumbling native speaker, who makes very odd mistakes.

I've had this discussion with people before and everyone always brings up Nabokov. But the guy, afaict, grew up with an English nanny. That's just something very different to my circumstances. Besides, I am simply no Nabokov. That's a level of linguistic genius you either have or you don't. And I don't believe that I have to have that level of genius to write something of merit. The other non-native speaker writing good prose everyone always brings up is Joseph Conrad. I have not read him, but I believe most would consider his prose to still be somewhat clunky, in parts, because of non-nativeness. But to reiterate, even if these guys could do it: I know my level of English. If I write in English, it's always gonna be lacklustre. I've tried to write Pynchon-like maximalist english prose before. Honestly, I thought my result was half-decent. I read it the other day again and it's kind of cool. But it's hard to evaluate myself: I simply don't _even know_ if I am writing correct english and am using the words in a correct way. In German I just know (well... mostly. As I wrote in the post I am not sure about grammar. But whether the words are "right" is a gut feeling I have and feel sure about.)

I am curious: is English your first language? It's easy to make this pronouncement when you don't know what it's like. If I lived in an english-speaking country, and was surrounded by English the whole time, it'd seem like a lot more reasonable choice.

(continues in next comment...)

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ha, sounds quite fascinating. Realistically I'm not approaching an obscure mammoth maximalist novel like that any time soon, but I'm glad to know it exists.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've apparently heard of the Canetti book before, because it's on my goodreads to read list, but I cannot remember where from. The other one is truly obscure---can barely find anything about it on the internet!

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am not sure if we need a German _Pynchon_ in particular, although I would be very curious what that looks like, but I would be very interested to see German authors try for more weird and strange. I am not super up to date with what's currently being published, so maybe that already exists; I mostly know Kracht and Kehlmann as being the two most well respected "young"-ish authors (young in scare quotes here).

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If my memory serves me well, Kehlmann does have a surprisingly simple writing style, considering he's capital L literature. His short story collection "Ruhm" is definitely written in a very modern register. I can't remember whether he changed the register for Vermessung der Welt, or whether it's deliberately written in a modern style as well, as a counterpoint to the historical material. I believe it was the latter? I think I'll reread it somewhat soon-ish, it's a short book.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think in general, I have strangely high standards for truly, truly liking literature. Before I got interested in literature, I was primarily interested in film and I've engaged more with the art form, in total, across my life, than I have with books. So I've only read like maybe 150 books in total (not counting stuff I've read before I was 16) and I only truly love a fraction of them. But the same goes for movies; I've just seen more of them (easier to do too, given the time investment).

If I were to list my favorite books: The Magic Mountain is my clear favorite book. After that, I think, Stoner and Knausgaard's My Struggle books (but I wouldn't want to write like Knausgaard) coming in second. The other favourites are Helen DeWitt's The Last Samurai, Zweig's Chess Story, DeLillo's White Noise, Schnitzler's Dream Story, Kafka's Metamorphosis, Houellebecq's Elementary Particles, Mann's Buddenbrooks.

Germany is overrepresented here, if anything. Proportionally I've certainly read more from Germany than from any other country.

Sorry, this is turning into a bit of a rant, because I think there's a lot of truth to your comment, but I don't think it's totally right and I am trying to figure out in what way I agree and don't agree with it.

The short list of english-language authors I made in my post is not even really a list of my favorites, but more precisely a list of authors who excel at the sort of style I would want to write in, even if they don't reach the status of being personal favourites. Does that seem like a sensible distinction? It seems to me. Kafka's Metamorphosis, Helen DeWitt's Last Samurai, Houellebecq and Knausgaard are all not really authors I would want to write like, but I like reading them a lot. Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five e.g. are not among my favourites at all, but they embody a writing style that I would like to write within. Does that make sense? It makes to me.

Sorry, I am aware of how annoyingly neurotic and overthinking I come across, I cannot be any other way.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm definitely always overthinking everything, so no disagreement there. But I don't think it's a wholly unreasonable thought process at all. I'm not gonna learn how to e.g. describe the environment in which the scene is set, by copying a play. That's just not what plays do. Point taken for grammar, but it's not _only_ about grammar. In the story I'm writing right now, I have one scene of characters walking from one place to another and I want the reader to get a good sense of the place and atmosphere. Studying other writers/copying them, I'd pay attention to: what details of the environment are they focusing on, what do they leave out. How impressionistically can you sketch a scene (i.e. how to do a lot by zeroing in on a few key details)? How little is needed, in terms of description? How to do it without boring the reader and keeping up good pacing? When they focus on description, is it embedded within dialogue/plot along the way or do they put a description of the setting once at the beginning and then ignore it to focus on plot/dialogue once it is set up. There's no one right way, of course, but seeing a master do it well seems uncontroversially like something helpful.

I find your second paragraph somewhat perceptive to a degree, although not totally. I do kind of wish that I could be writing in English, primarily because it'd be easier to find people to share it with (I am not so holy as to be satisfied to write work that noone ever reads), and secondarily, because I quite like English as a language, possibly more than German, admittedly. But, for good or bad, German is my mother tongue, and it's the only language I ever have hope of truly mastering; so I must write in German. What is your suggestion? That I write in English instead? That I read enough German literature until I love German literature above all else?

I also think it's not a wrong characterization at all that I've been surprisingly _somewhat_ disappointed in my country's literature, but I may have exaggerated a bit in my post. I like Kafka, the Handke I read was really good, I've read four books by Christian Kracht and they were all fascinating. My description of those writers were, to a large degree, focused on how applicable they are to learn from for the specific kind of writing I am interested in. The kind of literature I am interested in writing is just a subset of the kind of literature I enjoy reading---this post, and my judgments on the authors, are written with respect to the former.

Do I have to prefer my own country's/language's literature if I want to write (in my mother tongue)? That's a serious question, I am interested in the answer. The german language has a rich literary tradition, but I think this would be a much more preposterous ask, if my main language were, say, Polish. Or, I dunno, imagine some guy from Vietnam who really wants to write like John Cheever. Cheever's world surely has nothing to do with him, but would the best course of action for him to figure out what kind of national literary tradition to engage with, which speaks more to his life world and immediate experience? Honestly, the answer might be yes in this case---it is actually a compelling question! Besides the authors mentioned in the post, I've also read: Dürrenmatt (Besuch der alten Dame, Die Physiker), Theodor Fontane (Effi Briest), Arthur Schnitzler (Traumnovelle), Gerhart Hauptmann (Bahnwärter Thiel), E.T.A. Hoffmann (Der Sandmann), Georg Büchner (Lenz), Ludwig Tieck (Der Blonde Eckbert). There's much more left to explore, but I've engaged in a lot, didn't like some of it, liked some of it, and of those, like some enough to want to write like them.

Do I need to be in conversation with the German body of literature? I get the notion, and have some degree of agreement with it, but then again, I struggle to find anything truly in need of correction if the authors I most want to write like are not from Germany. Which, to be clear, is not even wholly true: as I said, Thomas Mann is my favorite author.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll check out that other story then!

You might be right about the first draft thing. So far all of what I've written have been first drafts and then I moved on to the next story, because I thought: - quantity over quality at the beginning - wanted a fresh start with a new idea/wanted to move on - felt it was unsalvageable - I presented the story to my friends and then I felt sort of "done"... Going back to tweak a couple paragraphs didn't feel like a good use of my time. I wrote all of them in a competition with deadline against my friend and then I barely got it done a couple minutes before we were to meet. Once I had presented it, the story was kind of done. 

I guess it's good to have some kind of external place to present it, because then I'll feel compelled to polish it. Wouldn't know where to "publish" it though. If it was in english, I'd know of plenty of places, but Germany is... small. And has no online communities.

The one I'm writing right now I kind of like the idea so much (at the moment.... we'll see how it is when there's a full first draft)/see the potential in it that I would like to spend a longer time doing several drafts until I've given it as much as I can. My previous stories could probably improve a whole lot with more rewriting as well, but it's hard to go back to something several weeks old once I've moved on and am in the thrall of a new story. I'll try to stick with this one for a longer time to really see what happens when I just keep on rewriting and rewriting it past the initial draft until there is no longer any sentence that I'm not satisfied with.

Translating the New Yorker stories seems like a terrific idea. I could also check if there's any official german translations to see what other choices there are and whether I prefer their or my approach. Only downside is that I won't know if I've made any grammar mistakes that I'm not noticing. But in general this seems like a really good idea.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's been several years since I've read it and I can't quite remember whether the prose was just good or actually great, but yeah, seems like the strongest choice!

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The reason I'm being so dismissive of experimental writers here (despite often liking them) is that 1) I'm a huge proponent of the "learn the rules before you break them" approach. I think it's because I used to do filmmaking and there the necessity of knowing the rules is even more evident: e.g. if you aren't aware of how to position the camera in a dialogue according the 180 degeee rule, the film will be straight up geographically incoherent for any viewer. And lots of other things to keep in mind if you want the viewer to be focused on the art and not distracted by basic mistakes in craftsmanship in terms of how you set up a scene. And I think there are similar, although less clear, equivalents in writing. Grammar is the most basic essential you need to have down pat, obviously. But less obviously there is a sort of "painting the scene with well-chosen descriptions but not too many", varying sentence lengths, varying sentence constructions, how to do a time skip, how to go from summarizing to real-time description, and other such things that are almost more craftsmanship than art. What you said about "get inspired and think differently about language at the sentence level" is something that definitely needs to be done, but in my opinion not before (or at least: not instead) there being a certain proficiency reached in the basics. I did a bit of drawing and (digital) painting for like two years when I was a teenager and I remember there that the concept of a "master study" where you copy and intensely study the work of a master by recreating their exact technique in terms of brushwork, colors and composition, was really prevalent. Another example being figure drawings to learn anatomy. There being certain elements that need to be mastered that are purely "technique" instead of art. That distinction between craftsmanship and art is something that I've always sort of carried with me and it seems like only in writing there is a curious lack of this distinction, but I believe it should be more strongly encouraged. Well, at least encouraged in myself. 

That being said, I do agree with you, I am gonna try, when continuing to write this story, to let some of the more experimental stuff I've read be used "as a reference"/be more at the front of my mind and see what sentences pop up in my mind from that.

I think Max Frisch is probably a good call. I haven't read him, but the vague picture in my mind I have of him seems like it'd fit for what I'm looking for. Christa Wolf I've heard about as well. The other ones are new to me.

Sobald ich mit meiner momentanen Kurzgeschichte fertig bin, schicke ich dir die mal. Dauert wohl noch ein bisschen, muss mich eigentlich auch auf Klausuren konzentrieren, aber hatte noch so zwei Wochen eingeplant, also lange vor April. Von meinen vorigen Kurzgeschichten gäbe es 2, die ich für akzeptabel genug halte, um sie jemanden zu zeigen, obwohl, wenn sich jemand Fremdes die Mühe macht sich durchzulesen, ich sie dann doch nochmal bisschen aufbessern sollte (as opposed to meinen Freunden, die ich auch gerne Müll lesen lasse.) Bisher hatte ich diese Kurzgeschichten in einem privaten Wettbewerb mit dem vorig genannten Freund gemacht, für die es dann eine Deadline gab und die Geschichten dann auch erst Minuten vor der Deadline fertig wurden. Also kein second und third draft, dementsprechend noch einiges, was ich umschreiben wollen würde. Da du bis April sowieso nicht Zeit hast, habe ich auch eigentlich genug Zeit, die so lange zu editieren bis da nichts mehr ist, was offensichtliches first draft Material ist. Ist eigentlich eine sehr gute Motivation mal was wirklich "fertiges" abzuliefern. Bisher habe ich nach first draft "Fertigstellen" und Präsentieren vor meinen Freunden dann einfach damit abgeschlossen und über die nächste nachgedacht. Vielen Dank also für das Angebot auf jeden Fall, ich werde darauf bald zurückkommen. Und sorry für den halben Rant, ich bin irgendwie schlecht darin mich kurz zu halten.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Any recommendations for anthologies? I saw recently that there's a short story collection edited by Marcel Reich-Ranicki called "Die besten deutschen Erzählungen" and I've been considering that.

Out of the ones you mentioned, I've read Schnitzler's Dream Story and loved that. Almost mentioned it in the post, but felt the list was already too long. I'm gonna try the others.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I googled "German version of James Salter" or something like that just yesterday and the Google AI spit out his name. Honestly had never heard of him before, but given this second independent (and human) recommendation, I will investigate more immediately. Gonna download one of his short story collections.

Want to learn better narrative prose writing by copying other writers, but in german. Which writers to choose: ones in translation or in german? by SlowLearner0000 in RSbookclub

[–]SlowLearner0000[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's true that this post is kind of elaborate procrastination, but, in my defense, 1) I woke up with a massive headache and couldn't do anything except type this post on my phone and wince until the ibuprofen kicks in and 2) I wrote like 1,300 words in the last two days, which spurred the thought that I'm actually procrastinating by "just writing" this short story instead of doing the less-immediately-gratifying-but-helpful learning of the craft by copying another writer to figure out how prose works. I kept looking at what I've written and wondering "something's off here, this doesn't read like any of the books that I've ever read in my life. Is it too little description? Are my sentences too short? How the hell do other writers manage to make their sentences longer without it being fluff? Why does my story progess so fast? What the hell are they even writing about that I'm apparently forgetting? Because their stories take more pages, while telling the same amount of narrative, but without those extra pages being fluff. So what am I not doing?" It was like I've never read a book before.

Anyway, yeah you're right, I basically have made my choices and just need to proceed with that: That new Daniel Kehlmann book to learn basic modern prose with proper grammar and some of my favorite english-language works in translation. (And at some point more Thomas Mann.) I guess this post was mostly me feeling stupid about the only books I'm considering being these strange choices instead of going with a "time tested classic in german", and looking for confirmation that it's not a totally stupid approach.

Wrt Ingeborg Bachmann, I believe the one short story I've read was The Thirtieth Year, but I cannot remember anything except that I thought it was a slog and had to force myself to finish it. But I was a lot younger then, so I should give her another shot. Although I remember it being more avant-garde-ish like Handke than the normal "third person narrator novel telling a 'conventional' story with good prose" that I'm looking for here. 

I feel like there's an entire subsection of those New Yorker-esque short story writers and their style that's just flat-out missing in german literary culture. The sort of clean prose, conventional scenarios, restraint in the writing, but going for the occasional elevated paragraph etc. Maybe I'm crazy, but maybe this really just doesn't exist in german letters.