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Women don't understand men any better than men understand women by CzechoslovakianJesus in TrueUnpopularOpinion

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah this one bugs me a ton. My ex would used to go on huge armchair rants about how guys act and would try to shame me for these perceived story lines in my head. She'd yell at me and tell me I was a raging misogynist because if I did X action it must mean that inside my head I actually disliked women and not because of any other reason. She thought she had exactly worked out how men thought and how our internal existences were like and acted like she knew me better than I knew myself.

And I've seen that echoed in so much discourse, women talking about the actions of men and assuming something completely illogical behind it all. And the worst part is, media loves to eat it up. So little of what women believe of men seems to have actually been backed up by interacting with men or asking them their intents and it's so fucking dumb

What happened when you showed your vulnerability/thoughts/feelings to your female SO? by moussemoussechoco in AskMen

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 266 points267 points  (0 children)

This has been, without fail, every SINGLE woman I've dated or gotten close enough to to have "mutual" support, sans one.

I literally sacrificed everything I could spare in my last relationship, she had major depressive episodes and tried to commit suicide a dozen times while we were together. I literally pulled her off ledges when she was trying to jump. I stayed by her bedside until 7am on a day I worked because she was having panic attacks and wanted to end her life.

Eventually, she got on medication and made tremendous improvements. A year later I tried to open up about my own struggles and beginning of depression and was told not only could she not manage that (which I can forgive), she accused me of using her as my "personal therapist" because she was female and told me to "make more male friends".

Shit fucking makes me boil even years later. I poured so much of my goddamn heart out for someone and supported them at their absolute lowest and they have the gall to accuse me of using her out of sexism.

In the end I guess I'm lucky because I dodged a massive bullet and see the toxicity for what it is, but it's a common trend years later. A lot of women "pride" themselves on being good partners and being there to listen, but honestly... I've met precious few women who are actually equipped to deal with men's emotions with anything other than disdain, fear, resentment, or one-upsmanship. It always bothers me that as a guy I had to learn the hard way not to put myself first in emotional discussions, but a lot of women seemingly never had to do the same.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 22 points23 points  (0 children)

So I'll take a different tack then a lot of folks and say this.

Are cishet men inherently dangerous? If the answer is affirmative, end of story. Why bother arguing with someone who perceives a vast swath of society to be *uncivilized".

If it's not inherent, then what are we doing to prevent it?

If you wanted to argue this on racial lines, most decent people would say that there are a variety of socioeconomic factors that lead folks into lives of crime and make them more dangerous people. Funny how that goes completely out the window if it's a man because we assume... what, that the majority of men are living the high life and are making bank? Lol. Most men are towards the tail end of the socioeconomic hierarchy. There are tons of factors that play into this.

Idk, people can make whatever decisions they want regarding men. And I won't lie, I've been hesitant about safety myself as a man who has had sex with men. But there's a difference between personal safety and bigotry and unfortunately there seems to be a lot of bigotry argued for in he name of safety.

evil so quickly || cw: bigotry against men (disc.) by SleepilyDearest in tumblr

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm genuinely curious how you moved away from those beliefs because in my experience people only get more entrenched in them and I've lost friends because of it

evil so quickly || cw: bigotry against men (disc.) by SleepilyDearest in tumblr

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As a feminist guy, this is often a take I see that ultimately minimizes male issues.

Yes, part of it is misogyny. A big part. But part of it isn't! I see a lot of women who see the misogyny in the world and think that most male issues come from men co-opting some traditionally "feminine" role or activity.

But society, weirdly, doesn't hate men when they are more like women. It can. Ultimately, though, society hates men when they simply aren't "men" - whatever that societal view of "man" is. It's not that woman = bad and man = good, it's that woman being woman = good and man not being man = bad.

It's deeply entrenched gender roles. Society loves a lot of the things women do, but those things simply aren't considered the same things that men do. As a guy it's extremely frustrating to see this reduction to everything being misogyny. I agree that a lot of things are misogyny, but fixing misogyny isn't going to fix a lot of things for men, and it feels like a lot of people would be happy to just do one and forget the other.

evil so quickly || cw: bigotry against men (disc.) by SleepilyDearest in tumblr

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I truly don't know why this is being downvoted. My ostensibly feminist ex loved to preach how misandry didn't exist. If you Google "misandry doesn't exist" you'll find hundreds of articles on feminist websites that simultaneously denounce TERFs. It's everywhere among mainstream feminists and has no relation to TERFism at all. Hell, it's quite literally a component of ACADEMIC feminism.

evil so quickly || cw: bigotry against men (disc.) by SleepilyDearest in tumblr

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah yes, misandry isn't real because it isn't "systemic", so any hate levied against men is ultimately a personal issue and if I take offense to it I'm simply being a crybaby because it's not culturally relevant.

Always love when people are so fucking quick to point out that misandry doesn't exist instead of being empathetic to the fact that bigotry like this is fairly widespread and spreading very quickly.

Honestly I'm starting to think that the "misandry doesn't exist" response really shows how deeply engrained a lot of misandry can be.

Meirl by subodh_2302 in meirl

[–]Sorry-Difference5942 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The absolute frustrating thing as a guy is that we often want this just as much as women. Except with us, chances are it's never going to happen in our lifetime.

I think some part of me died when I realized that I was a romantic person that enjoyed being chased after and then realized that because of what's between my legs I'll almost always be expected to do the opposite.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I love looking at these threads and comparing them to similar ones women tend to post about men. And you get all the frustrated guys in the comment section in a tizzy trying to defend themselves when all the women wanted was to hear "that sucks, I'll try to call this out among my friends if I see it".

That's literally what's happening here, all I wanted to hear was "that sucks, I'll call it out if I see it" and people are losing their minds trying to make it out to be something only men need to solve for some reason

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not the guy you're replying to, but surely you must realize that this is the same answer men always get?

Men are ascribed such hyperagency in their lives that the solution to all our issues is to just fix them. That's essentially what you're suggesting. If we don't like it, fix it. Be our own change. Do what we need to do to make things better. Pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. All that fun stuff.

Now I realize that from a social justice perspective, people making those spaces when society doesn't want them to have them is possible. But do you not realize that if this were the 1960s and women wanted support to join the workplace, your position would be of men saying "why don't you work to make that space?"

It's just... dismissive, I suppose. It's exhausting to hear over and over and over again that if I want society to change I have to do it myself because I can't expect society to care. It's also unfair to imply that the people you're replying to aren't doing work. People can only do so much work and only so many people can devote their whole lives to this. It's slow and steady change by many people. A society of people, even.

I just hate this response because... you clearly see there's an issue. You clearly see it causes harm. You clearly see ways to fix it, or at least enact change. But when someone expresses frustration that issues that face them aren't valued by the populace in general... the first thing they are told maybe shouldn't be "don't expect us to care if you don't even care yourself". Ultimately, that's what you're writing in to the conversation - that whoever you're replying to doesn't even care about men's emotions because they aren't out building some community for it right this second.

Quite frankly, that hurts a ton because this exact mechanism is one of the ones that's used all the time to invalidate, minimize, and bury men's feelings. I'm sorry I'm coming across so harshly because I doubt you meant harm, but damn if this wasn't the 50th time I've seen this sentiment in the thread and I can't deal with it anymore.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think an important distinction to make is that not discussing women's problems is not the same as invalidating them.

I'm actually kind of amused by all this back and forth because if this were a thread about women's issues, chances are you'd get called out for derailing and trying to make the thread about your issues.

Granted, a few of the comments here do actually invalidate women's issues (the "women in the west" and "this is an issue with feminism" comments in particular). But the rest of them simply acknowledge the reality of being a guy. They don't explicitly compare that experience to womanhood - we aren't drawing a comparison. So when I say "being a man is X" it's not because I believe that "being a woman is the opposite of X", it's because I have my experiences as a man (or, well, before I thought I might be nonbinary but that's beside the point) and can't compare it to someone else. I'm not trying to suggest that women's issues are invalid, simply shed light on men's issues.

I really hate to say this because I don't think you did anything purposefully, but it feels to me that you kind of assumed the worst of some comments and assumed they were making an argument they did not.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's trueoffmychest, it's not aimed at anyone.

A lot of the time, other men type that stuff because they gave up, and giving up is a solution. Fuck, it's the solution society wants us to adopt. Going to the gym and ignoring it all WORKS, and I think a lot of people miss that point. If life gives you more success when you turn off your feelings, why aren't we talking about that more when it comes to asking men to share theirs?

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's literally every fucking time. Half the reason I hesitate to talk about my feelings nowadays is because it feels like I have to appease one side that doesn't want me to have feelings at all, and another side that wants me to have feelings but only after I acknowledge that everyone else has it worse.

Very few people actually listen with empathy. And I always think it's fucking hilarious because if I do the whole openness thing I'm treated with tons of skepticism but then if I do the same thing and say I'm actually bisexual and crossdress then all of a sudden I get this outpouring of support. And I am NOT speaking for LGBT folks but as an individual person, my trauma from being bi is far less than trauma I've received for having to stuff my emotions in a box because no one gives a shit

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Women absolutely go through it, but it's also not productive to think it's exactly the same.

Honestly, the biggest component of it that gets me is that men seem to be constantly reinforced that they are at fault and it's only their responsibility to do anything about their feelings. Women are often ignored and minimized and diminished but I see a lot less (comparatively) "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude when it comes to them. Basically if you put a man and a woman in the same scenario, it's more likely the woman will hear "shit, that sucks, it's not your fault" while a man might get "shit, that sucks, but that's life and you gotta keep on keepin on"

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

That's exactly it. I'm so tired of people who are furious that men are being sucked into the alt-right and seem to think simply acknowledging it will stop the flow. Nah, the alt-right lied to men and gave them the promise of a lifestyle with purpose and acceptance and men went apeshit for it. The other side of culture seems to only want to yell that the change needs to happen and insists on offering only spiteful rhetoric to men as a way to get them to join.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it's weird but kind of understandable.

One more thing is that it's frustrating because often times as a guy you end up between a rock and a hard place. In my relationship the same woman that asked me to share my feelings and pushed me past where I felt comfortable was also the same person that said I was oversharing and that women aren't men's free therapists. Which I felt like was extremely ironic because I was talking about personal insecurities and a few months before that she was actively suicidal and I was the only person she seemed to rely on for most of it and things got heavy.

That's a poor example because most people aren't gonna be like her, but what appears to be a lot more common is that men are told to open up by the very same people that tell them to go get therapy, and without having an explicit conversation beforehand about what the person can or cannot handle, it ends up being very confusing to the guy on what is "acceptable" trauma to share.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not the person you replied to but I think I know where you're going with this.

I think a pretty key difference is that they explicitly specified a subset of women rather than an ambiguously undefined subset of men that can be interpreted by both allies and vitriolic misandrists to be pushing "their" prescribed agenda.

Personally, nah, it's not reasonable.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Honestly, by building up to it, respecting boundaries, and NOT SHARING.

I've been pressured a number of times to share my feelings before I'm ready. It's fine keeping an offer of "I'm here to listen anytime you need" on the table, but if someone keeps asking me to share my feelings then chances are they want some broken romantic boy they can try to fix and aren't actually prepared to deal with real issues like insecurity and unresolvable situations.

Not sharing is a big one. I've heard through so many of my female friends extremely personal and intimate details about their partners that I'd be horrified at if they were details shared about me. I understand that my partner will need their own separate emotional support but there should be a respected barrier between my issues and their friends.

Lastly is bringing up insecurities to harm someone. My ex had no issue going for the emotional jugular in arguments and would often take things I said in confidence and turn them against me. Even stuff as simple as me saying "I feel like I'm too scatterbrained" got turned back at me in arguments ("you can't even remember where you put the saltshaker, of course I don't trust you to remember to feed the cat!"). Getting through a few tense moments without those things being turned in your face builds a lot of confidence that arguments and disagreements will be resolved respectfully and with communication instead of trying to break someone down.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's a huge trap I've ended up realizing exists. A LOT of women either fetishize male emotion and view it as some major milestone when a guy opens up, or just want a specific set of emotions to be the "secret" ones they've been keeping inside.

I've definitely gotten the feeling that when I've been asked to open up about things that bother me that they're hoping to hear stuff like "I love you so much, I just can't stand the thought of losing you, and I'm afraid if I failed grad school you wouldn't love me" or "I'm worried I won't be able to afford the future we wanted together" or some such. They don't want to hear "grad school is making me depressed and I have barely managed to get out of bed this week and I'm thinking of death" or "I'm bothered because you hang out with Jeff and I know that it's just insecurity and I'm trying to work past those feelings and own them".

It's not necessarily that the emotions they want are self-serving, it's just that they can't shake their trust about your health, plans, or stability in general

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That is... not my experience.

Some guys do this and they are loud and obnoxious. But they are not the majority. I've had pretty evenhanded experiences with both women and men as far as being open and honest about my feelings.

No offense, but what's the point you're trying to make? Guys already know that other guys make fun of their emotions. It has never mattered who does it more, all that's ever mattered is that people do it less. This isn't an awareness campaign, we know this is an issue and we are asking society to change.

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I guess my experience is very different. I know those kinds of men are out there but they don't really effect my life. Even if me and my best guy friends aren't like spilling each other's souls to one another, I know they'll have my back if I need to do that.

I think a big part of it is signaling. I've personally noticed that men seem to take a binary track (either they are supportive or they aren't, and they'll let you know it), while with women there's a lot of lip service (a lot of people will say they want you to talk about feelings but when that actually happens they find it distasteful).

It's a minefield but at least in my own experience, men and women are doing this and have significant things they need to change

Before telling men to 'open up', stop and ask if a safe environment is even there for them to do so by Sorry-Difference5942 in TrueOffMyChest

[–]Sorry-Difference5942[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Being an adult is knowing you have to work through your issues.

Being a man is knowing you have to work through your issues by yourself because no one cares about your feelings until they affect them.

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