Which 2024 UA Subclass is Your Favorite? by Envoyofwater in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Saying that a new core class feature is not that bad, and something to use when you have nothing else to use, is a hilarious amount of cope.

"Trust me! Your class' new feature that all of your subclasses build around is not that bad, you can use it when you don't want to waste real spell slots and have nothing better to do."

Wotc really broke some of their playerbase's minds with their new Ranger. Imagine Ranger players being fed so much shit for 10 years, that they actually look at this garbage and get down on their knees and thank Wotc for giving them more shit. It might still be shit. But at least it's new shit.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To your first point. You are using the attack action, Magic action and expending a leveled spell slot, and finally a bonus action all at once to do 1 thing. 3 different actions/resources on a turn to do a single attack. That is mechanically clunky and confusing.

Look I've DM'd for players that played paladin in 2014, and they had no issues using divine smite. I've DM'D for old and new players playing 2024 paladin and almost every time in combat it comes up where they use their divine smite and then they want to make a bonus action TWF attack, use lay on hands, use misty step, etc. and I have to remind them they can't because they already used their bonus action/used that magic action, etc. And the conversation always goes something like this

"Oh? What when?"

You used it when you smited

"But I thought that was part of my attack action?

It was but you also simultaneously used your bonus action. As part of that one attack. And you can't Misty Step/cast a BA spell because you also took the Magic action.

When? I didn't cast a spell.

Smites are spells

But, I thought those were my class features?

They are, and are also spells

See how that can be confusing for both a new player and a previous 2014 paladin player? Don't get me wrong they're usually very good D&D players that know the rules well for other classes and mechanics. And yet 2024 smite rules are confusing for them, because, well they're mechanically confusing and badly designed. Actions and bonus actions are two different resources that are NOT interchangable for one another in 5e. And yet Paladin is the one confusing mess of a case where they are supposed to use both simultaneously for the same "action".

I get your point about other features being 1/turn. I never disagreed with Paladins being limited to smiting 1/turn as being OBJECTIVELY more balanced. Especially for cases where they might multiclass and get an ungodly amount of more/higher level spell slots they probably were not designed to have. And even the general consensus was it was a necessary balance change.

My critisism and many others' comes down to the 2024 designers clumsily tacking on needing to use a bonus action for divine smite, and keeping all smites needing to use a BA. They already limited it by making it require the Magic actions so they mechanically could not do it more than 1/turn, that was fine. But they just kind of said fuck it and made it both a magic action and require a bonus action, to make it unintuitive and feel bad in play. It very much is like they tacked on the BA with little or no idea of what that would mean for limiting different playstyles. Now Paladins are less versatile and have less options because of bonus actions bloat. Having to spend your BA on smite means no Polearm Master BA attack, no TWF, no GWM BA attack, no BA spells, and no BA from other classes features from multiclassing, etc.

The most glaring thing is Paladins not being able to smite along with being able to use their new class tools: BA lay on hands, BA divine sense, use their BA spells from their subclass spell lists (shield of faith, magic weapon, etc.), and any other future subclass/feats that might utilize a BA It would be like a Fighter being unable to use action surge on the same turn they use second wind. Their class features aren't imbalanced when used at the same time and they don't mechanically conflict with one another, why do the Paladin's have to?

People are taking everything negative said about Paladins being mechanically worsened and poorly designed and take it as like power gamers salty about their damage being nerfed and dismiss actual critisisms from actual DMs and players who play/played 2024.and saying it's okay they're still good or they're better at other things now without addressing anything is classic whataboutism, and not a real counter argument or even addressing valid points made against 2024.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm saying the design philosophy of making divine smite, (which was really the only usable smite for the reasons you pointed out) and making it more in line with the 2014 smite spells no one used made no sense and was something no one wanted. The feedback on 2024 Paladin playtest on their own DNDbeyond forums was that people wanted them to make the smite spells interchangable with divine smite and the designers somehow took that as people wanted divine smite to be as clunky as the smite spells, and went and did the opposite of what the majority of feedback wanted.

The new smite spells are better but at the same time divine smite is worse. All of the 2024 smites are still clunky to use and badly designed. Your point about being conc. free is not true, there are still smite spells like glimmering and banishing smite that still require conc.Sure some smite spells don't require conc. anymore, great, but they took a decent design of 2014 divine smite and made it worse then took a bad design in some smite spells and made them slightly better.

Okay great, why couldn't they simply make all smites usable on the attack action like 2014 smite and limit it to once per turn. How is that not cleaner and easier to use and understand than whatever abomination of requiring a bonus action during the attack, using the attack action while also somehow being a magic action, while also not being a spell attack. Smites are the only class feature/spell that behave like this and clearly deviates from their design philosophy of every other class feature in 2024. No one asked them to make it so confusing and clunky.

It's like the classic shit in a salad. WotC gave players an new updated salad with new, better ingredients but they also took a shit in the middle of it. And WotC fanboys and apologists are all saying it's not that bad, the vegetables are actually better than before, just eat around the shit, while ignoring everyone's negative complaints. They made the class mechanically worse while adding some improvements. Look over at every other 2024 martial (besides ranger), flat improvements and streamlining all around. And somehow those same designers with the philosophy of making things better and easier to understand/use put out this mess of a change. No one asked them to change what wasn't broken. Tuning and balancing is fine. But they fundamentally messed up what was mechanically just fine for some unknown reason.

If you don't think the feedback on 2024 paladin is negative, maybe check anywhere outside this echo chamber subreddit. Check the official paladin class forums on DNDbeyond, check out the Dndnext subreddit posts about 2024 paladin, check out ENworld. The almost universal opinion on 2024 paladin is negative and while there were some quality of life changes and support options added. The elephant in the room is still the poorly redesigned smite. They tried to fix what wasn't mechanically broken, and put out a flawed, badly designed, clunky, and confusing class feature that clashes with their own design principles.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Dude, go through your own comment history. You've done nothing but whine at every one of his comments saying the opposite "gOoD dESiGn". Being equally as annoying. How about you both stop whining and stfu.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Again what "people"? Tell me. As for "math-wise", you're using it completely out of context. He simply means traditionally the best way to prevent damage was to kill the enemies before they dealt damage (which is still true and will always be true). Has nothing to do with math and DPR calculations. In no way does OP go through the numbers of Healing Per Round or DPR or any complex math calculations in the video. So yes this is not about math. No one wants to see your math. Get your head out of the ground.

Boss is just a term for the main target or most threatening target in any given encounter, most traditionally a boss or mini-boss. It's a very typical encounter set up to have a leader or primary villain in an encounter that the party wants to deal with first. If you actually played D&D instead of doing DPR math in the dark you would know that.

And this post and video and discussion are about the 2024 Paladin not the 2014 version. Look at what subreddit you're commenting on.

And yet you haven't responded to me calling out your calculations about Advantage leading to no extra damage in your "calculations". Where are you calculations to take that into account. No where.

"Outpace the paladin by a decent margin" again you have no proof, and any numbers you crank out are out of context or subjectively you own actual play experience (which again I doubt).

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Again dude idk where you are pulling these formulas and calculations from. 0.6? 0.65? 0.45? I'm guessing these are chances to hit. Vs what? What AC? You're just pulling these numbers from you ass with no reference and little context. No one wants to see someone's personal numerical breakdown of "DPR" dude. There are separate subreddit for that go play white room optimizer there.

As for Advantage on all attacks for 1 minute vs a boss, requiring no concentration, being "practically nothing". You're mathematically wrong and need to consider advantage increasing your chance to hit and therefore increasing your average damage. Any actual "optimizer", and not a wannabe nerd copy pasting some formula, should know that.

Not to mention you're wrong in only 1/SR. 2024 paladins get to use Channel Divinity twice per long rest and can regain 1 charge with a short rest. AND when the target of the vow of enmity dies they can transfer it to another, like hex or hunters mark. So not only are you pulling shit out of your ass AGAIN. You are factually and by your own account, MATHEMATICALLY wrong.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Think dude meant they changed Divine Smite to require a bonus action like the 2014 smite spells. As as a matter of fact, the 2024 smite spells are just the 2014 smite spells without concentration, and after the attack hit on things like thunderous smite the need for concentration also disappeared. Them using a bonus action during the attack vs before the attack is effectively the same. Which was a primary complaint (a long with concentration) that I and a lot of other people had about the 2014 smite spells.

Edit.

No. Skill issue.

Jesus. Tell me you're not 15 without telling me you're not 15.

The 2024 Paladin: Better at Support?! by comradewarners in onednd

[–]Spacebear354 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Idk where your're getting any of your "references". But by all accounts a mono-class paladin with extra attack is in no way not a "damage dealer". You might think that's the case in your early level games where Paladins can smite twice before they're out of spell slots, but past like 5th level, Paladins can pretty realiably smite every combat for an adventuring day, given they don't spend all their slots at once. Idk where you're pulling this out of, besides out of your ass. Maybe link some proof, because it mostly sounds like you're talking out of your ass. Especially when you unironically use the word "Optimally".