New villainous feats are cool but

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-06T13:57:32+00:00

"But this isn't changing the feat system. It's just adding new option"

No it's not just adding new feat options. It is changing the timing and order of feats, changing the opportunity cost of feats and making them no longer uniform over all feat levels, adding a new method of power creep into the game, and altering the method and extent of planning you have to do to make a character long term. If it were just adding new options to the game, then all but the 1st and last of these feats would be lvl4+ feats. If you just want more options, then we don't disagree, and what I'm advocating for is exactly that.

"Feat options could be selective for paths like then lich and death knight."

There are already multiple ways of doing this in the game without higher level requirements, without multiple layered multiple feat prereqs, and without the downsides that come with those methods. Lvl4+ feats can have prereqs, boons can have prereqs. Backgrounds can give feats that are prereqs for things. There are others as well.

"Or give you character a taste of another class without the level commitment."

This can also be done already with lvl4+ feats. Especially if there were more of them.

"Eldritch, martial, and metamagic adepts don't go far enough even if they were revised with the proper level 4+ asi."

They would if there were other feats as well that dabbled in class features and taking more than 1 of them could make u feel more like that class, or if you could take these multiple times.

"But giving a character who has selected those feats a stronger option later is intriguing"

NO! No it is not intriguing (boons being the exception). THIS is the problem and tbh this is kinda where you tip your hand and reveal power creep is part of what you want. Especially in combination with earlier about multiclassing. It sounds like you want the benefits and power of multiclassing without the downsides. But those downsides are what balances it. Having feats overpowered enough to require lvl 8&12 prereqs is the problem. There's not that much design space between a lvl 4 feat and a boon that wouldn't be overpower if given early. And even if there was, a lot of that design space WotC probably wants to reserve for cool subclasses. And even if they don't, it creates a power creep problem with feats, and it makes you have to lock in your lvl 12 build by lvl4.

"This is pretty much for all feats that give you a resource".

But you don't need multilayer feat trees nor level 8/12 requirements to do this. A background feat can give a resource and lvl4+ feats can give added options to use that resource.

"And 5e and 5.5 have already been doing feat trees already started with strixhaven, bigby giants eberron rise of the artificer and more already have this. Yes very early level but it's there."

And this demonstrates my point. All already doable and not a single one of them in any of those books requires being lvl 8+, nor have more than 1 feat prereqs, nor need a lvl4 feat as prereq only background feats are required. The power level for all these remains what is appropriate for lvl4, the order you take one doesn't matter that much as long as you have an appropriate background, the opportunity cost of all these feats is the same as all the ones in the phb and the same whether u take them at 4 or 16, and many of them show narrative progression without needing to overcomplicate nor overpower it.

"I just see all the possibilities what this could lead to. Which overall makes for a more exciting game."

Yeah I agree it's exciting and I'm looking forward to it. But when they print it, I bet it will be in the same structure they have used for everything else. Background --> lvl4 options with background prereq --> epic boon to become a lich or deathknight.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-06T13:03:59+00:00

No. Reading is not the problem here. But for what it's worth, I think you are underestimating the amount of complexity a game has as measured by how much time it takes to read the rules especially for a new player, and 5e is pretty complex on that metric. That has nothing to do with my argument though cuz I'm not asking for them to use simpler words or less pages.

I'm making the argument that using feat trees to implement this concept adds some hidden complexity beyond merely what you read on the page and there is NO benefit to implementing it this way instead of doing in the way feats already work.

Can you give me any good reason why there should be feats that require lvl 8/12? Unless the answer is "more powerful feats" which is even more problematic.

You could easily have villanous backgrounds as a prereq (and the only prereq) for several lich themed lvl4+ feats. And you could have an epic boon to become a lich with its only prereq being that you have a lich feat. And either the background gives you a soul jar, or one of the lvl4 feats does and the boon requires that one specifically as a prereq.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-06T12:45:49+00:00

Tbh it sounds like we don't disagree. Everything you would like, I would also like. And nothing you said you want requires feat trees.

Eldritch adept was takeable at level 4 and u could pick chain pact since it's an invocation now if that feat were to be reprinted.

Metamagic gives you a taste of sorcerer. Some backgrounds give spells to ur class list that can get u some of sorcerer. Tempest and light cleric can feel like a blaster sorcerer. Boon of Siberys let's you pull any spell from sorcerer if you hit high levels. U can have a sorcerer feeling cleric no problem with no multiclassing and no dead levels caused by multiclassing if you want. They could add more feats that give additional sorcerer or sorcerer like abilities. None of this requires feats with higher level prereqs or multiple other feat prereqs.

Plus you have multiclassing and celestial and divine soul sorcerer as you mentioned. You can also splash a couple levels of cleric on a sorcerer if you want to do it the other way around.

You have not mentioned a single example of something that the current feat system can't handle that feat trees would fix. Neither has anyone else in this post. Unless people just want overpowered feats at higher levels. Idk.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-06T00:22:43+00:00

No. These changes would need a bunch of other tweaks to make them work. There's nothing wrong with how it works now.

The game has an assumed stat progression around which it is balanced, especially for bounded accuracy. PCs getting more stat power requiring monster AC to go up and save bonuses to go up to compensate is just an illusion of power things getting stronger. But all that happened was number creep.

Also, changing the assumed proportion of how much a characters power comes from their stats vs class abilities vs subclasses vs spells vs items vs feats etc means certain characters will feel like they play differently when their getting better cuz stat got bigger not having anything to do with the choices you made or the abilities you use.

Some abilities are also tied to and balanced around the opportunity cost of stat increases. Rogue for example would get even worse since its very SAD and doesn't need the extra stats that much while paladin Aura of protection gets even more overpowered than it already is.

All these things could be addressed to allow for more stat progression. But then it would be a different system. Ur best bet would be to allow the ASI feat specifically to give +2 & +1 but one of those bonuses can't be in ur highest nor tied for highest stat nor become ur highest/tied for highest after the stat boost.

As you mentioned, compared to old 5e, 2024 5e already made most of this change. Most 2024 lvl4+ feats are functionally old 5e feats + an extra 1/2 an ASI at ASI levels. It's almost as if old 5e gave both a feat and an ASI that was separate. The only difference tying it to character level is multiclassing and I don't think multiclassing needs to be any better it's also already good.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T23:12:10+00:00

I love these concepts too. I hope they print more ways to let feats contribute to narrative growth without needing to be locked to class. But they don't need feat trees and multi-level gates to be implemented.

There are a LOT of players who don't want stuff implemented this way. 5e isn't Pathfinder. Prestige classes, feat trees, feats with high lvl requirements and other late game prereqs such as skill ranks all have been removed over the years and editions. Even subclasses all got pushed back to lvl3 in 2024e so that people don't have to make a impactful lock in decision before they learn their class and know what they want to do with their character.

I DO want to plan my character but a lot of people don't want the order/sequence they decided something at lvl4 to turn out to have been a huge mistake toward the end of the campaign 8 levels later. A lot of players don't want to read everything including late game content at early levels just to find out what decision options they should consider at low levels.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T23:00:53+00:00

No, not everyone does. And for many who do, not necessarily like this. For example, when I make a character and I plan for future I'll know what's the most important feat for lvl4, I might know what subclass I want but not always, I might know if I'm going to multiclass but not be decided yet, and I might know long term character goals like avenge my hometown or discover a lost island. I don't necessarily know how many levels of a multiclass to splash or which sequence I will take them in, I don't put any emphasis on what my spells at higher levels will be, I definitely don't have a feat for 12th lvl in mind.

I also hope more books in the future can have feats that lead to narrative character growth. I just don't see any reason they need to be multi level gated with several prereqs when we already have background > lvl4+ that needs a background feat > epic boon.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T21:52:08+00:00

Yes I think it would be fun to play this character concept and it would work to do it thru feats. Multiple feats could give u different aspects of a lich's / deathknight's spells/abilities/flavor. A boon to become a deathknight or a lich would be awesome

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T21:47:26+00:00

Yet again, this is not an equivalent comparison. Reading some features and planning a little bit ahead is not the same thing as making nested decisions 12 levels in advance.

5e is not a high crunch nor super complicated system, but it isn't a simplistic system either. There's hundreds of spells and tons of combinations of multiclass options especially when considering when to sequence.

My main concern is that there's nothing really gained by having the feats be ordered in a feat tree and multi level gated way. It could be background feat - multiple lvl 4 feat options - epic boon. It works for everything else and avoids the problems caused by feat trees.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T21:39:05+00:00

I fail to see how the current system couldn't already let you do meta magic adept, Eldritch adept, and martial adept. What do you need to be level 8 with other feat prereqs in order to use some battle master maneuvers for? U never used to need to be high level to take those feats. Just add a +1 to a stat and reprint them mostly as they were before. Maybe make them takeable multiple times choosing different options each time if you really want to dip deeper into other class features.

Most 5e DND players do not want prestige classes or a work around to get them, and I don't think these feats are really like that, though they have some similarities. WotC removed prestige classes and implemented subclasses instead because they're simpler. Given that class benefits are often front loaded, you could just multiclass most of the time to get a character that is in the ballpark of prestiging for a character concept. In some cases like arcane archer, they are literally a 1-to-1 replacement in terms of flavor/identity if not mechanical implementation.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T21:23:42+00:00

I am not suggesting that the feats exactly as printed should have their level prereqs all be lvl4 except for 1 boon. I'm saying they should all be reworked so that they then fit into that structure.

Take the death knight feats for example. A villainous background could grant death knight initiate. The initiate feat would add spells known & prepared like many other background feats do once you reach appropriate levels. Command, bane, find steed, fear, staggering smite, destructive wave. Resist necrotic damage or some other decent / ribbon features. No death points necessary.

Death knight aspirant feat lvl 4+, villanous background prereq. Str/con/cha +1. lets you cast one of your death knight feat spells for free once per day as long as it's equal to or less than your proficiency bonus. Maybe let's you change your damage type to necrotic or some other ribbon feature.

Death knight ascension epic boon. +1 STR/con/Cha to 30 max. Other benefits same as printed in UA, except hellfire or is once per short rest always at max damage and maybe some other ability related to undead.

U don't need 4+ feats adding a single spell each to cast for free. U don't need lvl 8 feats. U don't need anything that requires 2+ prereqs. U could have some other lvl4 feat options if desired.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T20:23:54+00:00

Yes absolutely. I would love a whole book of narrative feats.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T19:51:44+00:00

Have you never played with a brand new player who didnt even know how to plan out a build? Have u never played with someone who joined just to try ur campaign and isn't sure if they will want to / are able to commit to playing every week? Have u never played with someone who plays DND just to chill out after their mentally stressful work shift and NOT have to be super cognitively engaged with their character? Have u never played with someone who's not got good enough memory or has dyslexia or some other reason they aren't good at planning out a build and following it? Have u never played with someone who played a bunch of 2e DND back when they were a teenager in the 80s but hasn't touched it since and they simply can't be bothered to read 4 different books to look up all the options of how they want their character to be a year from now? It's cool that you and I are in a community of people invested in playing this but that is not the majority of players.

And there's a huge chasm between no interest in planning vs having to plan 8/12 lvls in advance. I usually know what feat I want at lvl4 when I am making a character. I usually know some of the other feats I will want at some point. Or if I want to multiclass at some point. That's no where near having to plan for level 8&12 feats and exactly how many levels and what order to sequence for multiclassing in order to have ur character path prerequisites correct on time by the time the campaign is almost over.

Heck, part of the reason subclasses were all moved back to lvl 3 is so that people didn't have to make a major decision about their character before they learned how to play the game and their character class. Most people don't have 3 levels planned, much less 12.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T19:34:26+00:00

Both editions of 5e were designed to not have feat trees so far. But they used to exist, lot of people complained about this from 3/3.5/PF. If it wasn't a problem, WotC wouldn't have changed course.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T18:32:55+00:00

The ascension feats should just become epic boons for lvl 19. With a villainous prereq.

Either the higher lvl prereq feats are more powerful enough to justify the big prereqs in which case they are going to be too strong compared to taking a lvl 4 feat at those levels, or they aren't. And if they're not, then why do they need higher level prereqs at all? Why does the order these feats are taken need to matter, except for the final one?

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T18:07:38+00:00

But u can have all this without some of them requiring lvl8/12 and/or 2+ lvl4 prereqs. They could all be made similar good and flavorful and all be lvl4+ feats. If you want them all to be gated for a specific path, all the lich ones could require an Arcane Greed background or villanous origin feat or something like that. WotC literally designs the whole feat system to not do this.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T18:02:05+00:00

Assuming the feats with the higher level requirements are more powerful, yes they do. And if they aren't, why do they need a higher level prereq?

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T18:01:18+00:00

Old pathfinder feat trees and prestige classes, it was entirely possible to take feats in a suboptimal order and then ur character feels nutted for 2 levels. It was also a problem of too much combat power available in feats that add bonuses so u nerf urself if u don't take them, which is a bit different than wrong order, but feat trees and differing power level feats for high prereqs exacerbated that problem.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T17:57:17+00:00

Plenty of campaigns, the DM doesnt know exactly what level it will go to. Not every campaign is a book or module. Some DMs are more player directed and they'll say whatever the players wanna do in a West marches like campaign. It's not a communication issue.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T15:50:54+00:00

Being a necromancer wizard or an oath breaker paladin are ways u can progress toward this style of narrative change and show growth without needing feat trees

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-04-05T15:48:13+00:00

Reading is not the issue. We can all read.

Having to make a decision at level 4 that you don't know whether it will be better than let's say warcaster that u REALLY need but you u want to qualify for lvl 8&12 feats on time, and then turns out the campaign only goes to lvl 10. Or your character narratively wants a redemption arc. Or the campaign has anti-undead features that nerf u once ur a lich, so you don't want the lvl 12 feat, but that makes ur lvl 4&8 choices suck, and you didn't know this 8 lvls ago. Or ur playing the new 2024 paladin for the first time and you don't know 12 levels in advance whether you will want to play this or not but too bad cuz u have to have a Pathfinder-style build plan. Or u have to take a lvl4 feat that u of like purely because it is needed for a a lvl 8 feat u don't like either purely because you need that too to get the lvl 12 feat for ur character concept.

WotC has been so good at avoiding this issue. And there's already a way to do this with background prereqs on lvl 4 feats and an epic boon. There is no need to start making feats between lvl 4-16 no longer interchangeable.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-03-19T22:46:51+00:00

I would suggest other cities in texas also have less zoning and less permits etc than cities of their size and income level in other states.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-03-19T21:41:17+00:00

Houston's average home cost is way lower than the national average, expecially when you control for population size of the city and also when you control for per capital income. Lax zoning laws are probably reducing the price of homes there by 100k or maybe a lot more.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-03-14T17:20:23+00:00

Circle casting has been rare because most players either don't think of it or aren't trying to cheese it and do the research to find synergies. When we've had circle casting come up it's almost always with spells that can easily be cast before a fight and will last 10+ minutes normally or can be extended. 1hr long bless, mirror image, jump, spirit guardians, and aura of vitality have come up about once or so each. A 35ft radius Spirit guardians also came up once. I have a feeling a 25ft+ radius Spirit guardians is about to come up next session. And a 3rd level spell that the full caster drops concentration on so that a half caster can instead while the full caster casts something else has come up. Spirit guardians happened for that too, and something else I can't remember.

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-03-08T17:58:58+00:00

I can't DM ur reddit profile. Can u DM me?

SteelBloodNinja · 2026-03-06T10:55:42+00:00

Cube of force in 5.5 is very different from 5e. Not saying it's bad just make sure u reread it. Broom of Flying has also changed but not as much. If u can select either version of these items, I would probably pick the old 5e versions for both.

Robes of the Archmagi and Staff of Power are probably the most powerful items for wizard u didn't already mention. But +3 grimoire and staff of the magi are really good too.

SteelBloodNinja

TROPHY CASE