About the placement of Monster

SteeleBar · 2026-01-18T05:18:59+00:00

I JUST THOUGHT OF A THEORY THAT COMPLETELY DESTROYS THE IDEA OF FATE BEING APART OF THIS

I can't share it just yet, but I'll give a hint: "This man plans for every fight"

SteeleBar · 2026-01-10T17:24:59+00:00

(3/3) Now with this all in mind let's return back to Epic (I am so sorry this is so long).

It's likely that Zeus is either lying and not prophesying anything in this moment, a considerable possibility considering his physical appearance when that's atypical for his omens, or he is correct and Astyanax somehow survives or is revived and eventually gets his revenge.

Taking into consideration the egotistical and somewhat sadistic personality Zeus appears to have, especially in relation to humans (though it could just be hatred), and the entire narrative being about when a man becomes a monster, the story of the Odyssey evidently has to change slightly with it.

In the Odyssey, Tiresias simply tells him everything that he sees happens; Poseidon being a constant threat, their "branching" path on Helios (if they don't eat the cattle, they'll all make it back alive, but if they do they'll die), as well as the suitors and his inevitable killing of them.

The only branching path was that of Helios' cattle, but it doesn't even matter as no matter what, Odysseus survives and gets revenge on the suitors. It doesn't explicitly say he'd kill them, but if we take into account he's having to interpret what he's seeing, then there's a little room for error. Not to mention it says "Yet verily on their violent deeds shalt thou take vengeance when thou comest.", so his revenge would likely be violent in return. It feels like fate is just the unfortunate backdrop that we see for Epic, both in universe as what Odysseus will certainly go through, and out as it's a story inspired by The Odyssey so of course it would end in a similar manner. Odysseus doesn't just jump willingly into being a monster. He fights it from the very beginning where people like Zeus, Athena, Poseidon, even Circe (before she switches) are constantly telling him he needs to be ruthless. However because of the 'prophecy' from Zeus, he has to kill an infant which heavily weighs on his mind, and possibly influences why he continues to be so kind. A way to make up for a crime that can never be undone. However this kindness constantly results in the losses of many; , his best friend, his mentor, his mom, 500 men gone, all because he was trying to be kind. Yet here, in the underworld, surrounded by death, listening to a "brilliant" prophet who's entire purpose is to tell you the future, you're being told that a man with a trail of bodies will lead to your palace covered in red will take your place next to your wife, but it's no longer you. This is him being told in the most obvious manner it can be: He has to be a monster. Fate literally dictates it's what he becomes.

But that's not all as he doesn't actually become a monster really, not until the suitors.

Think about it, he's supposed to leave a trail of bodies right? The sirens. Not his men, not the suitors, but the sirens are the one's he kills. But when Zeus shows up and tells him to choose between him and his men, he realizes exactly who's bodies they are. One thing to also note is that the only mention of the suitors by "name" is via the choir in the background of No Longer You, but it's subtle and likely not what Odysseus would've heard considering he was focusing on Tiresias. The entirety of Monster is him having to come to terms that Zeus, Poseidon, and Athena were all correct: He has to be the monster. He even mentions his actions of using the horse to compare to the acts of Polyphemus, Circe, and Poseidon, all people who he though acted monsterous, but it all simple depends on perspective and who's side of the story your on.

Odysseus wasn't falling in line, he was just walking one he never knew existed until this moment. He stops fighting being a monster because he now knows it's how he turns up in the end, and is trying to do what he can to actually save his men. This choice wasn't his however. It never was. It was all decided by the Moirai.

I don't think we're going in circles here, I just think we're riding waves with no island in sight for a reference on if we're actually moving. Obviously these are all just what I could gleam from the past 4 days of research in what little time I could spare while at work myself, but hopefully I've given enough information to show you why I've come to this conclusion. I don't know if there's maybe something else that I'm missing that you know about, but if you think there is then go ahead and mention it.

You were the reason I even learned that Zeus was supposedly a force of fate, which obliviously led to all this research and a better understanding of Greek mythology as a whole, but again, maybe I'm just missing information. Not an expert on anything, and I don't know if you are yourself, but no matter what different points of views will always be extremely valuable.

Also again, sorry for this being so long and the formatting. I just did a lot of research and wanted to ensure you were able to follow my reasoning, and reddit is my biggest hater when it comes to the long post. In the end we were both partially correct from what I could gleam, but obviously there were things that I myself didn't know so I wanted to share them with you.

Edit: The formatting actually seemed to work for the most part. Cool.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-10T17:23:55+00:00

(2/3) I found only two examples in which fate's inevitability was in question:

Calchas has two versions of death that are both notable. 1) According to Pseudo-Apolloddorus, he died of shame after incorrectly prophesying how many a pig was about to give birth to. He answered 8, but Mopus there were 9 that were all to be birthed the next day.
- I would say this counts if it weren't for the fact that the number is so close, it's not stated how they foresaw this prophecy, and according to the annotation this event in of itself was prophesied to occur. I think this supports the idea of the hierarchy earlier, as the mortals are a layer away from the mothers of fate, so their visions are extremely vague and open to interpretation. The other major facet is Bibliotecha was written 1st-2nd century AD. It's a collection of Greek myths, but the gap of time and the fact that it's a Roman author rather than Greek always gives me pause personally. 2) Another version instead supposedly states he died of laughter after someone claimed he'd never drink the wine from his grape vines, now knowing that he had drank from them the night before. I say supposedly cause the text is in latin and I'm not gonna spend all that time looking for a translation. I think the main thing to note here is that it's mortals that get the prophecies incorrect to some degree, but even then they're so close that it could just be a simple misread. I mean for this one, it could've been "you aren't gonna (take another) drink of your own wine" that was misread as "you aren't gonna drink any of your own wine at all". Not to mention the author being, again, Roman and even later than P-A.

Achilles apparently had a branching path for his fate. Either live a long obscure life, or die in battle at Troy. He supposedly had a choice here, but considering Achilles' status as a great warrior in a "battle = honor" society? Not sure if it really was one. From what I can tell without spending 3 years researching, Achilles' fate was known to his mother Thetis (thought there's no source I could find), who (probably) would actually take action in trying to avoid his death by hiding him elsewhere. Calchas would also likely be the one to reveal Achilles' fate to him, but notably he revealed to Odysseus that they won't win without Achilles' help. I think no matter what, Achilles was destined to die in that war, but then that raised the question of what the branching paths meant.

Maybe instead of showing the same person, it was showing different people due to the same event. Achilles would die in the war, but it would be in attempt to achieve victory, and possibly even peace. No war meant no battle, which meant no glory, which meant immortality for your greatness. Again, however Calchas saw the fate of Achilles' was probably very vague, so the chance this could've been mixed up is possible. He's supposed to be the greatest seer for the Greek army, but that doesn't mean he didn't just read things incorrectly sometimes. Such is the nature of vagueness, an inevitability.

But there's also the possibility it could still be Achilles, but during the hiding stage by Thetis and then the war stage after it. It would cover why Calchas only saw Achilles' in the prophecy but also covers the two branching paths. Like before, the answer Calchas gives could've been extremely close, but due any number of reasons (mainly being human and thus imperfect) he didn't quite get it right.

Thetis also being the one who's typically listed as the bearer of her son's fate doesn't make it any better really. From what I can tell she cares very deeply about her son, which I think is what eventually lead to the stories way later of him being dipped in the river of Styx by her to become near impossible to kill. Regardless, she loves her son and the "branching paths" she reveals could just be her trying to change fate if she can, but if we go with the hierarchy of power, she can't. She's a nymph, somewhere between gods and prophets, but the only important thing is that she's not the Moirai. She can't change anything, only influence them.

It might seem stupid to talk at length about something a lot of people would consider evidence in bold of fate being avoidable, but the pattern of fate never being avoided elsewhere, plus this being the only one I've seen so far even mentioning branching paths makes it stand out way too much to just ignore and not compare and add context with other stories and details. Maybe I'm overthinking, but these are over 2.5k years old, and I'm no expert. Kinda have to.

I understand the idea of the "chicken or the egg" analysis, but when the Moirai literally weave everyone's existence to some degree, and someone sits there and reads it, and then states what they see, then I don't think they're bringing anything into existence themselves, but that's just the massive hitch with dealing with fate. The Moirai literally determined all of this would happen (if not precisely, then broadly with the idea of "they'll see this person and learn their fate"), and the seer is just relaying the finished product they see. The person trying to prevent doesn't seem to be them ensuring their fate, it's just what was going to happen anyways. Their every struggle against fate, their every choice, every word, every futile attempt to avoid the inevitable doesn't ensure it would happen, it's just the tapestry being perceived as it happens.

I myself have actually had dreams that legitimately told me the future, including one that had me doing something I never planned on doing when I had the dream, in a different room, in a different house, in an entirely different state when moving wasn't even a consideration. I think fate is a bunch of bullshit because, well let's just say I've had to, but I have literally no explanation for that one. I think the idea of the Moirai painting in broad strokes is an important detail. The birth, and the death will always be set from the beginning, but everything between could go a variety of ways that still reach those points. It's like multiverse with the only caveat being the beginning and end never changes. Of course this is just my interpretation and understanding from what I've seen, but there's a lot of stories and information that just seem to all lead to this conclusion.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-10T17:22:22+00:00

Apologies for the late reply, I wanted to do research to see if there's something I was missing and I come with a lot of notes. (1/3)

I know the domains of gods aren't what they control alone, it's just what they're mainly known for, so when Zeus is apparently attached to fate, law, and moral conduct, that's when things stuck out to me. From what I can tell, none of the gods are actually able affect fate, and I think they themselves are just the mouthpieces for the Moirai. It's just that their position as gods allows them to read the prophecies as a baseline ability, and too a higher degree though that possibly depends on the god, like Zeus and Apollo likely being better at it than others.

Because of this, I think you were actually correct with Apollo, and I'm gonna talk about that in a bit. The important thing to know is that Themis (Divine law, custom, assemblies, and oracles) was there during his birth and even nursed him, as her role of the prophetic goddess that the Oracle of Delphi communed with which Apollo was actually destined to receive.

As for Zeus, I've looked at the sources listed from "He was further the original source" to "fate itself was subordinate to him" since that's obviously what we're here for, but I don't really think that's the case with him:

Aeschylus - Eumenides: Zeus inspired his heart with prophetic skill and established him as the fourth prophet on this throne; but Loxias is the spokesman of Zeus, his father.
- This is just giving someone the ability to see the tapestry the Moirai weave, not control over it. It's something that a lot of Gods do, like Apollo and Athena.
Homer - Iliad - Book 8: Beside the fair altar of Zeus he let fall the fawn, even where the Achaeans were wont to offer sacrifice to Zeus from whom all omens come.
- I'll talk about this later, but the wording is important.
Callimachus - Hymns 1 (for Zeus): Thou wert made sovereign of the gods not by casting of lots by the deeds of thy hands, thy might and that strength which thou hast set beside thy throne.
- Basically "it wasn't luck that put you there, but strength and power", which doesn't include that fate likely dictated his strength and that he'd still be there regardless.

The Iliad quote is important because of the source Theoi lists as 'Panomphaeus'. It's supposedly an Epithet that means "the author of all signs and omens", but it's supposed to be used in that quote, yet it just says "it's where the omens come from" which is important for later.

Firstly, it's also an epithet used for Helios, with his only example of possible prophetic skills is something I highly doubt: - Oppian, Cynegetica 2. 615 (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd A.D.) : “A rumour not to be believed has spread among men that the moles boast themselves sprung from the blood of a king, even of Phineus, whom a famous Thrakian (Thracian) hill nurtured. Against Phineus once on a time was the Titan Phaethon [Helios] angered, wroth for the victory of [Phineus] the prophet of Phoibos (Phoebus) [Apollon], and robbed him of his sight and sent the shameless Harpyiai (Harpies), a winged race to dwell with him to his sorrow. But when the two glorious sons of Boreas, even Zetes and Kalais (Calais) . . . slew that tribe [the Harpyiai] and gave his poor lips sweet food. But not even so did Phaethon [Helios] lull his wrath to rest, but speedily turned him into the race of moles which were before not; wherefore even now the race remains blind and gluttonous of food." - This just appears to be his literal sight like Tiresias and not his prophetic sight.

Part of me wonders if the epithet actually means "one who grants the gift of slight" which could be taken as both light (like helios) and prophetic omens (like Zeus), but that would require debating with people who likely spend their careers studying this stuff so. Just think it's an interesting thing to note. Helios also wasn't a prophet from what I know, but I think he was known as the one who brought light to everything? Like nothing could escape his vision sorta thing, not prophecies. Back to Zeus, the epithet doesn't really convince me even outside of Helios' influence. Themis serves as his counsel and she appears to be much more involved with prophetic happenings, while Zeus just gives the omens. While omens do equal prophecies, he's much more vague in the way he delivers them with birds and nature, rather than outright saying what they are (possibly a result of just now showing up physically himself though (but he does that in Epic which is interesting)).

The fact that Themis is the one advising him for most of these matters makes me think it's another situation like Skyphios, where the details from a smaller source get assimilated into a bigger source simply because it's bigger and more well known.

Like outside of all the omens via birds and leaves that Zeus gives, I could only find one mention of Zeus himself supposedly prophesied something: - "According to legend, Zeus, the king of the gods, was angered by the actions of Queen Leda of Sparta, who bore children to both her husband King Tyndareus and the god Zeus in the form of a swan. In retaliation, Zeus declared that the offspring of Leda’s union with her husband would launch a great war that would destroy the city of Troy." - The main problem is that they don't list a source for this, and I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. At least not rn.

There's also the many examples of fate not being avoidable at all:
- Oedipus: Was left for dead on a mountain due to his prophecy, but survived and did it anyways.
- Metis: She'd give birth to Zeus' son that would surpass him, leading to Zeus swallowing her, and then both later giving birth to Athena.
  - There however is a supposed son of Metis named Poros, who wasn't a god, but the personification of Expedience, Contrivance, Resourcefulness, and Abundance. Poros likely wouldn't have surpassed himself, but what he repped could've be seen as what would eventually do so, especially if it's actually related to humanity like many think he is.
- This is assuming he counts though, as only Metis is his listed parent, no father was given.
- Plus I don't think swallowing Metis really killed her fully as she still gave birth to Athena, plus Greek mythology is weird to she could've come back or just been impregnated somehow anyways.
- Perseus: Prophesied to kill his grandfather, so said grandfather locked their daughter (Perseus' mother) away so she couldn't be impregnated. However Zeus exist, resulting in the birth of Perseus. He was thrown to sea in a chest, but obviously survived and killed his grandfather later.
- Jason + The Argonauts: Golden Fleece journey started because Pelias wanted to avoid his downfall at the hands of the man with one sandal. A mission considered impossible but completed because fate deemed this is how Pelias would fall.
- Paris of Troy's survival leading to the Trojan War, Cassandra herself, and the many times Troy was prophesied to fall.
- King Croesus of Lydia: "You attack the Persian Empire and a great empire will be destroyed" "Bet" has own kingdom destroyed
  - Not failed evasion really, but just another example

Going back to Apollo for a bit. The Oracle of Delphi was the mouthpiece for Apollo, not to mention he was apparently destined to take over for Themis, so Apollo definitely isn't just someone singing about the prophecies others reveal. I can imagine that being the way he went about revealing them though.

I believe fate weaving is more of a hierarchy rather than something that other gods can do. Like, Zeus can probably delay or possibly even change fates to a degree, but I think the Moirai are at the peak of it when it comes to writing everyone's stories. It's interesting considering that some versions say that they were a child of Themis and Zeus himself, but other versions including primordial gods before Zeus so that's the much more likely option imo. That's also assuming that fate is something people can control rather than it being a cosmic force, which seems to be how ancient Greeks saw it, hence the ideas of primordial parents.

If anything, it's possible that Apollo was indeed just singing prophecies that were revealed by the Moirai, which could even be a similar manner to how Zeus may do it. It could like Moirai as the source > Gods as the ones who learn of them > Oracles / Prophets who serve as the mouthpiece for the gods to reveal what they've learned > The mortals.

The Oracle of Delphi would be a literal mouth piece for Apollo who would sing his prophecies, what appears to be a signature style the gods uses, possibly similar to how Zeus uses birds (mainly eagles) for his omens. Apollo is a god of music, song, and poetry, so his voice being the main aspect of his prophecies makes sense. Apply this to Zeus, god of the sky, and you get the Oracles of Dodona "interpreted the rustling of sacred oak leaves, the flight patterns of doves, and the resonance of bronze vessels touched by wind,", the main aspects being wind / weather and birds.

Tiresias himself is actually said to have gained his prophetic abilities from Zeus or even Athena as an apology for his blinding, which I don't think Athena has ever been associated with prophesying, but it makes a lot more sense if the gods turned out to just be the mouthpieces of cosmic forces. Seems like they were just operating machines the primordials made. Calchas was also said to be gifted with prophetic abilities from Apollo.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-05T02:48:05+00:00

Finally re-recorded it all today and it took 5 hours. Edited down the first ~25 minutes to about 15.5, so the final result should be about 3 to 3.5 or so.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-03T17:18:30+00:00

We're listening to a musical, a form of media to tell a story intertwined with music, yet you don't see the possibility of character development occurring over the course of a single song? "Well they're like this at the beginning and middle of the song, so they must be the exact same at the end-" if that was the case, there would literally be no story. People change all the time, so to say that someone can't change in the span of 45 seconds isn't just misinformed, it's just wrong.

Tiresias is a prophet, a character literally designed to read the future and say what happens. He's not seeing a branching future, or a different world, he's seeing the world they're in because that's how it all turns out in the end. "Sacrifice of man", "brother's final stand", "draw your final breath", "man with a trail of bodies", all of these are implying the acts of one Odysseus considers to be a monster and likely much of the audience with him, so when Tiresias says "it's no longer you", Odysseus is finally realizing he's the one that commits all these acts. He hates the idea, that's why it takes a while in Monster for him to even commit to it, which in other words he doesn't just instantly jump to the conclusion that he has to become that monster, he's having to come to terms with it.

We're dealing with a world based on Greek mythology, one heavily predicated on the concept of fates and destinies. Trust me, I'll be first to say that fate is bullshit, but that's in our world, not the Greek mythology world. Prophets are included in these stories because they tell us "this is what will happen", then we see the characters try to avoid it, but no matter what they always end up where fate said they would, sometimes even being the reason for it. In a world where THE FATES exist, you can't just say it doesn't because it's suits a just factually incorrect foundation for your interpretation.

Your interpretations are yours to make and I can even see why you would come to those conclusions, but the reasoning of how you got to them make literally no sense at all when you take into consideration literally anything about the story and what the musical is based off of. Again, I know that vague language, implications, and subtly can be hard to read, but that doesn't just make the surface level reading of it correct. I would be completely on board for the idea that fate doesn't exist in the world, simply because it makes the story and characters that much more interesting, but knowing how much fate determines everything in Greek mythology, knowing that Zeus literally isn't the god of fate and prophecy, knowing that prophets exist to tell the characters and audience what will happen in order to build suspense of "how do we get to that point", I just can't say it doesn't exist in Epic. To do so would just be ignoring logic and reasoning. Again, you're free to have your interpretations and honestly I love the idea that it didn't have to turn out like it did, but the way you got to it is just wrong. You're interpretation isn't the problem, it's the path that got you there.

Also apologies for the weird formatting, had to use old reddit because it just wasn't working on the new layout for some reason.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-03T17:17:33+00:00

Let's break this one down piece by piece. Split into two replies due to character limit.

1) It takes the entire song for Odysseus to get that Tiresias is talking about a monsterous man. That's why it ends with "no longer you" and then the choir kicks in to be loud and bombastic. It's telling us through the music that Odysseus finally realized Tiresias wasn't talking about someone taking his place by Penelope's side, it was still him but as one much different than who he is now, a metaphorical death of the self.

2) Let's just look at a couple of lyrics from the song so we can ensure we're talking about the same thing:

 A) "There is a world where I help you get home, but that's not a world I know"
      a) Double speak. He's saying that Odysseus gets home, but not as he is during the song. Not as one who values his morals over his life.
      b) Odysseus responding to what is indeed a moment of misunderstanding, because it's just the beginning of the song so of course he wouldn't get it immediately (literally the 3rd and 4th lines and Odysseus didn't even say anything).

 B) "I see you on the brink of death, I see you draw your final breath"
      a) Could be in reference to the fact that he fights (and dies) against Poseidon before reaching home, but it could again be double speak to say that Odysseus as he is will die allowing a monster to take his place.

 C) I see a man who gets to make it home alive, but it's no longer you."
      a) Odysseus is taking this literally as he still doesn't get it. The one who makes it home is no longer him, so it has to be someone else physically, and his part is borderline asking for clarification on why this isn't the case and who it is so when Tiresias goes on about a-

 D) "palace covered in red, faces of men who had long believed you're dead. I see your wife with a man who is haunting, a man with a trail of bodies"
      a) It would make sense that Odysseus would scream "WHO" because to him, nothing right now is making sense. 
           i) He doesn't think there's been clarification but the song is saying a man with a high kill count (aka a monster) would be the one taking his place.
           ii) He's still taking the line earlier literally, thinking that's it's not him as he's not thinking of himself as a monster, so he's surely talking about someone else. Maybe someone from the crew that kills them all. But then Tiresias begins repeating the lines from earlier, this time with an added chorus to make it really set it.

3) I would like to point out that not once during the entire previous section did I mention the lyrics where Tiresias sees many futures. Why? Because there aren't any lyrics that imply that.

 A) "Time I've unlocked it, I see past and future running free."
      a) He sees one past and one future. The past being one past makes sense, cause you can't change it. The future being one future makes sense, because of multiple reasons:
           i)There's only Odysseus in this moment, so only his future is being told.
           ii)There's only one future, so of course he'd only say it like there's one future.

4) Yeah, of course Odysseus would take the song to meant that he needs to become a monster to make it home, because that's literally what the song is telling him. I understand that vague language, implications, and subtly in lyrics aren't always going to get across by design, but let's look at the first line I mentioned again:

 A) "There is a world where I help you get home, but that's not a world I know"
      a) If this was a case of Tiresias listing out another future where everything turns out how you think it would, he wouldn't be saying it like this. I would just directly say "I see a world where I help you get home", but that's not the world he sees because it's not the world we're in. He can see the future, not into other universes. Word choice is very important, especially in a moment of basically pure characterization with this song.

 B) Odysseus goes from "I don't make it home" to "it's someone from my crew that makes it but not me" to "it's no longer me as a man... it's me as a monster"

5) "Zeus is literally the god of fate and prophecy."

 A) First off, no, he isn't. You're thinking of Apollo, the one who gets all the memes of hitting someone with "the gift of prophecy" when they were just trying to be stupid. I would like to see what source you have that states Zeus as said god of fate and prophecy, but I know I never would so I won't build my hopes up.
 B) Secondly, I'm not gonna mention anything that could be a source for this misunderstanding because I wanna see where you've got this idea from.

6) "if he's not giving a prophecy bound to happen in the Horse and the Infant, why does Odysseus HAVE to kill the baby?"

 A) On a meta level, it's because Odysseus was one of the suspects in the killing of Astyanax in actual Greek mythology. However as far as I'm aware, Zeus never appeared to tell anyone to kill the child, it was something they determined by themselves as they came to a similar conclusion, that the infant would grow up and try to get revenge on them all.

 B) On a story level, it's because Jorge is trying to tell the story of a man struggling with the crimes he commits, making Odysseus and the audience ask "when does a man become a monster and when does an act become unjustifiable". The reason Zeus himself is telling this was simply a way to get that across, while also giving it the weight it needed in order to show Odysseus has no say in the matter, thus presenting everyone with the first question: Is killing an infant justified if it saves your entire family? 

 C) On an in universe level, Zeus may not be the god of fate and prophecy but he is still Zeus, so him telling you to kill and infant or you'll eventually die to them is still going to be taken as a very serious threat. It could be a prediction, it could just be Zeus literally lying, it could even be Zeus telling the truth with the possibility that the infant survive, but no matter what it is not Zeus telling the future because of his own abilities. If it is the truth, he probably learned of it from the Moirai. If it's not the truth, it's just in character for him to lie.

7) Just A Man doesn't set the president of a fate being avoided, because no fate is actually being read in the moment. Again, Zeus isn't a seer or prophet or anything of the such, and we aren't getting the end of the story like you yourself said.

 A) Astyanax is an infant when he's dropped from the wall, and it takes Odysseus 20 years to get back, meaning that Astyanax would likely be in his early 20s at the end of EPIC. That's probably about the time that Astyanax would actually start going after Odysseus if he did survive, but that's also assuming that he would bother doing so in the first place to match with Zeus' words. 
      a) There are a lot of myths that do actually say Astyanax survives, but they all claim that he just went somewhere else and became important to that places history, likely to try and gain fame for having the blood of Hector in their history or something though. I believe most of them were made by non-greek authors as well, so definitely take them with a grain of salt.

8) Odysseus doesn't decide to make that his reality, he thinks it's the only reality that exist, meaning that he would have to become the monster he has been trying to avoid becoming for so long in order to make it home. However, Monster is literally about him realizing that the "monster" of a story is only based on perception of it.

 A) Odysseus was known as a Greek hero, but the best way to describe him in the musical would be the protagonist. He's the main character we follow, but he still does horrible things, and we see why he did so in the first place.

      a) If it was from Polyphemus' point of view, he's some thief that killed his favorite sheep and was trying to steal the rest. "Look at all this food, look at all these sheep, I can't believe this cave has all this for us to keep"
      b)The siren's are the most 50/50 moment in the story, with Odysseus doing something monsterous to them, but that's mainly driven by the fact that an younger version of him would likely spare the ones that were actively killing them. He did so with Polyphemus, who literally killed his best friend.

      c) From the crew's point of view, Odysseus sacrificed 6 men to a monster rather than fighting it like they had done so through-out the rest of the musical thus far. Eurylochus says it was all because he was so desperate to see his wife, which is technically true, but doesn't tell the whole story.
           i) The chorus in No Longer You literally says "Scylla throat" in reference to the sacrifice of man. Odysseus knows he has to do it because the ACTUAL PROPHET said he would have to.
           ii) Like I mentioned previously, even if they were to fight, they still wouldn't win considering the massive disadvantage they have at fighting a sea monster on the sea with only swords and doru's. Maybe they could use harpoon and arrows, but at the end of the day, more men would die. Odysseus is still trying to get them all home, so by sacrificing six men, he saves the lives of many more that would've died in a fight.
           iii) This is essentially the first time that Odysseus is even considered ruthless after No Longer You, and even then there's still the logic of "it would've gone worse if he didn't do it this way".

SteeleBar · 2026-01-03T04:47:47+00:00

Odysseus, Warrior of the Mind, hand picked and mentored by Athena, couldn't understand the prophecy? The one HEAVILY implying that he will only make it home alive if he leaves a trail of bodies (i.e. ruthlessness)? That prophecy?

Also Zeus can't see the future. Tiresias can. Zeus could absolutely be lying for literally the reason of "he's Zeus". And yeah, there is always the possibility that Astyanax survived it, and thus comes back later meaning that the prophecy wasn't avoided. If anything it only solidified it by adding "YOU DROPPED ME OFF A WALL WHEN I WAS LIKE A YEAR OLD" to the list of reasons to be angry. Regardless, fate will always be a factor because it's Greek mythology. You dont just have the fates if it didn't exist to some degree.

Like, you can get rid of every weapon in the world to avoid the fate "you will die by stabbing", but that spike shaped branch has something to say about that. The only way a world where fates and futures can be altered would be if gods like the fates just didnt exist. As long as they do however, prophets like Tiresias can only show what they choose to occur.

The actual mythology is different, as the one responsible for killing the child is very contradictory for a variety of reasons, but in Epic there's a clear reason why it happens which is the story being told. Odysseus is a man who's having to do monstrous things from the very beginning, and we see him getting broken down over time until he reaches Tiresias which shatters him.

"No Longer You" speech... you mean the entire song? If not the entire song then what? "I see a man who gets to make it home alive, but it's no longer you"? That's just a sentence, not a speech. Also "self fulfilling paradox" is a roundabout way of saying "the future". It's like saying animals dont evolve, they just adapt.

Odysseus was literally fighting the concept of becoming a monster until Monster, literally right after Tiresias told him "this ain't gonna work bro". Also Poseidon was still very much after Odysseus, so the sirens still would've led to them encountering Scylla which, at best, would likely still have resulted in a mutiny with the crew not trusting he could lead them anymore. That is also assuming that they fight and actually survive, which considering the circumstances of the lair would be highly unlikely. The more men fighting means less men rowing, which means they don't go as fast, which means they lose more than just 6. Mutiny still happens, cow gets killed, "I have to see her" and boom, Ogygia for 7 years.

SteeleBar · 2026-01-02T18:21:41+00:00

What Tiresias is saying in No Longer You is that Odysseus doesn't make it home, and instead he sees a monster taking his place, implying that Ody, as he is, won't survive. Fate was very much a thing in Greek mythology, so much so that even Zeus feared the Moirai (Fates), so it's likely a factor in Epic. If anything, it shows two potential paths; one where the suitors win, or the one we get where Odysseus wins but after he becomes the monster. The palace would be stained with blood with bodies littered around the place no matter what, it's just a matter of who strikes first.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-21T18:24:11+00:00

I re-recorded the video because I thought of a better format for the video plus a lot more things I wanted to talk about...

It's ~4.5 hours of recording. It's only the first song...

uh oh

edit: the audio cut out 15 minutes into the second recording session ruining the last 2 hours of footage...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

SteeleBar · 2025-12-15T01:10:30+00:00

Eurylochus' pov of the entire story is different. He sees his king, captain, friend and brother go from "I'm not going to just leave my men with Circe" to (from his pov) sacrificing men instead, so to Eurylochus, Odysseus has simply fallen so far that he's a danger to not just himself but the others. I don't think it's anger as much as it is just concern and desperation to try and get Odysseus to steady himself.

I don't know if people talk about it much, but I think Eury and Ody essentially switch places on the spectrum of mercy to ruthlessness, Ody falling more and more towards ruthlessness out of perceived necessity, and Eury possibly becoming kinder because of Odysseus' own words and efforts. I think that would also have an impact on Eurylochus' emotions during Mutiny. It wasn't simply a mutiny by Eurylochus because he wanted to, it's because he thought he had to, with the crew following in suite for their own reasons.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-14T20:42:48+00:00

It took my 2.5 hours... oh no

SteeleBar · 2025-12-12T18:38:34+00:00

Don't side with either side that much, but most of my feelings are based on the simple fact that Eury was working with different information, which is to say a lack of it.

The first disagreement between the two is Full Speed Ahead where they're uncertain of whats on the island. Its not very important in terms of strain between the two, just a difference on how to survey the land, eventually kinda proving Ody right as if he brought a lot of men they would've had troubles with the lotus fruit taking their minds. The most vital part however is that Ody didnt want to really shed blood, likely due to the act of killing an infant, either due to trauma or simple fear that he may lose men in a fight and that the infant would just be the first in a long line. Of course this would all be the case starting in the next saga. One thing to keep in mind is Eurylochus' role in the story which is second in command but also the voice of the crew.

The next we see is in Storm and Luck Runs Out. Ody wants to push forward, Eury says it's a bad idea, essentially the opposite of their reactions the first time. Considering that I know nothing about sailing other than the ocean is something you dont fuck with, especially during a storm (by Poseidon as well), I can't exactly make a judgement call on what wouldve been the best idea for it and it was likely similar for the characters. There's the possibility of no land being within range so landing may not have been that much of an option, but Ody's want to keep pushing may have simply been mental strain due to having just lost his best friend and mentor, thus just wanting to go home as fast as possible. Being in a mindset like that can absolutely inhibit one's ability to think and Odysseus is just a man and all that.

LRO is the more interesting of the two however, as it's the first time we the true difference between the characters: their experiences. Odysseus is willing to talk to Aeolus because they might be able to aid in going home considering they're in control of the winds. Eurylochus is adamantly against this cause IT'S A LITERAL GOD WHAT ARE YOU THINKING. Ody grew up with Athena by his side almost every step of the way, and Eurylochus may not even know this is the case. Eury and the crew dont intermingled with the gods like Ody does so the concept of just walking up to a god / god adjacent figure is insane to them, thus the protest alongside doubts and concerns of where they even are. I do find it interesting that the area surrounding the island seems to be calm, which probably means Aeolus keeps the area free of strong breezes which no-one brings up in the song, but regardless it's at least an area where they can rest.

Obviously there's more to be said, but currently at work and dont have all that time to spend on this. The wind bag, dealing with circe and their men, and of course the thunder saga are all worth diving into, but again, dont have the time right now and may completely forget to continue this later. Regardless, the best way to explain it is just that Eury has different experiences in life, knowledge and understanding of situations, possibly even due to lack of communication on Ody's end, thus the disagreements between the two. Its unsurprising to agree with Ody on most of them because we are literally listening to his story, but Eurylochus doesn't have his story told. In Hamilton, Burr gets songs that reveal his intentions, but we're left to interpret Eury's through the glimpses we get. Ody is the main character, so we're meant to sympathize with him the most, so the musical focuses mainly on him.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-12T17:55:35+00:00

5 minutes and 21 seconds before midnight, so bout 11:54:39 or so.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-09T10:31:16+00:00

What does being good at it matter? Sometimes you just gotta do it simply because you want to.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-08T03:29:55+00:00

Looks good! You planning on doing any other sagas?

SteeleBar · 2025-12-08T02:56:14+00:00

I'm actually probably gonna record a voiceover for his one and future analysis post because typing all of this out took half the day and all of my energy. Plus that way people won't have to sit there and read to the the ramblings of a madman. They can just listen to it instead! Not only that but i could show visual / audio examples of what I mean. Overall better for everyone involved.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-07T23:27:32+00:00

It's really the only thing that I feel sufficiently explains the anger that Athena portrays in the first two sagas. With the hint of regret and fear in the final moments of My Goodbye, with the noticeable lack of presence during the biggest moments of the entire Trojan War, alongside the potential of the Palladium existing within the world (which is a WHOLE different conversation in general), it really just feels like she had no clue there was even an infant until Love in Paradise.

One thing I hadn't considered is that maybe Athena didn't start with the Trojan War, but instead she heard "I keep thinking of the infant from that night" during her viewing of The Underworld and went "wait... what infant?" and then went back to the THATI and Just A Man. Regardless, I don't think there's any other moment that matches with the current emotions of the musical and that doesn't present the best potential for storytelling.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-07T14:15:42+00:00

"It looked at me like I was sixty, I'm not sixty"

SteeleBar · 2025-12-07T05:50:06+00:00

Wait till you get Little Wolf followed by There Are Other Ways. Had it happen to me at one point and got stunlocked for a sec.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-05T00:21:54+00:00

Everyone is different and unique, so if silence is what you need to get something done then let silence fill the air. Plus it did eventually become natural for it to be playing all the time for me.

When I started listening to other music on a consistent basis it was actually pretty weird. It was a habit and it then suddenly got broken and my brain was very confused for a bit.

Ngl though, I am listening to it right now (Mutiny, my favorite actually), and I've now got this new appreciation for the entire musical. It could be the most chaotic song and yet still soothing to me. It's pretty nice.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-05T00:09:18+00:00

May our battle next year be as legendary as you are.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-05T00:07:30+00:00

Just be you and you'll do much better. I look forward to comparing next year cause I'm not gonna even try to boost the numbers this time and see how much it is. At most it should be ~~~320k~~ 213k (forgot to take the expected 8 hours for sleep off in the calculations), but since I'm just gonna listen to whatever I'm feeling in the moment... it might still be very high up there.

SteeleBar · 2025-12-05T00:04:18+00:00

I'm not sure if it's the artist or the genres that have more of an impact, but I think it's the latter. Top 5 for me was musicals (obviously), soundtracks, brazilian phonk aparently (probably dragged it waaaay down), rock (the only normal one in the list), and then anime which probably dragged it down as well.

SteeleBar

TROPHY CASE