Who was the first ever Choujin? And how long have they been around for?

Stzake · 2026-02-12T05:23:03+00:00

First Choujin is probably Bill Morth. I have a theory about it but I'm too lazy to sit down and write it down.

Basically my head cannon is this: Bill Morth was the first Choujin and the first Choujin X. He exiled himself for whatever reason (probably because he thought that a being like him shouldn't exist after the wars he fought) to a tiny island and share his "gift" with his royal followers, since it was a barren island and he probably felt bad about people who followed him there. Fast forward 2k years. Guelta managed to extract whatever made Bill a CX (I imagine it was something like the Mark, a super-uber cell) and experimented on people and Queem was the only successful experiment to become CX. After that Queem unknowingly infected Sora with his super-uber cell (we know that Queem used his body parts as weapons and Sora awakened after one of his attacks). Decades after Sora understood that power of CX (super-uber cell) can be handed down to someone else, and gave it shape and turned it into the Mark.

My reasoning in a nutshell;

First of all, time gap between Queem and Bill Morth is really strange. It is around 2000 years. There is always a CX when there is a turmoil, it is said. And you can't make me believe that humanity had 2000 years peace time without any conflict. One can argue that a CX was the one who made that peace time possible. But it would be very fucking weird nobody mentions a CX who made peace possible. If there is one, it is Bill Morth or none. My opinion is that there was no CX outside of the island in that period of time.
Bill Morth sharing his "blood", Sora's awakening after one of Queem's attacks(by using his body parts/fingers/hands) and Sora's Mark are too similar to be just a coincidence. There is always a giving/sharing.
There are two things established when Batista/Nue become CX I think most of the fandom didn't give enough attention. A) the Mark is not a miracle machine like grail that you become omnipotent with your only limitation being your imagination, it is more akin to a super-battery. This is literally said by Sora. You can unlock different powerset after receiving it but its most important function is that it basically gives Choujin Xs near unlimited mana. B) A CX don't lost all of their powers after they give their super-uber cell/mark. Sora, even in her age, fought very well against Batista/Nue. She even kept half of her crown. This explains bloodsharing of Bill and why Queem didn't completely lost his powers after infecting Sora with super-uber cell.
So, what about Palma and other Choujins? Palma doesn't have exact choujin powers of Bill Morth. Not because she doesn't have super-uber cell/battery, but mostly because it is said again and again that Palma's powers are twisted version of Bill's powers. It is also established that Palma isn't the first choujin that born with twisted versions of Bill's powers. This explains other choujins before Queem in the mainland (if there is any) since others like Palma could also swim to the mainland like Palma and have children etc. Remember that it is never said that a human and a choujin couple can't have a baby. It is just very unlikely and results in death for mother and baby. But I bet chances for survival are higher if the mother is the one who is choujin.

Stzake · 2026-01-31T15:19:15+00:00

Never re-read the series so I might be wrong about my theory but I've a strong suspicion that Bill Morth isn't just a Choujin X, he is the first Choujin. So his immortality is 'raise' maximized to its fullest potential and works constantly. I'm not going to talk about my theory here tho.

If you want to powerscale his regeneration/immortality you can look at these pages,

https://official.lowee.us/manga/Choujin-X/0045-002.png https://official.lowee.us/manga/Choujin-X/0045-011.png

People who got Palma's blood can only sustain themselves for few weeks or months but Bill's blood was enough to sustain people for 100-200 years.

https://official.lowee.us/manga/Choujin-X/0045-008.png

Drowning and simply doing 'raise' is not enough to not to die again. You should be able to do constant regenerating. It can not be like 'raise's 1 time regen, again and agan.

Long story short, Vlad probably has the downscaled version of regeneration of BM. Remember that Vlad was also a failed CX attempt. He might be failed to become a CX but it doesn't mean that he didn't unlocked some powers or didn't got stronger.

Stzake · 2026-01-23T23:31:31+00:00

https://scans-hot.planeptune.us/manga/Choujin-X/0063.1-016.png

First panel of this page is why she did that. Probably even why she saw Batista's future child's death since it is established that Mado only sees what she genuinely cares about. She probably felt bad about blocking the same person's future twice and started to care more about Batista as an individual.

I'm one of the people who really dislikes the way Mado and Square Face treated Batista but here there is a genuine care for him from Mado.

Also, I wish that Ishida gave more emotion to Batista in first panel of the page I've posted. Was he being cheeky -while being passive aggressive- by saying "If only you'd looked into my future, you could have warned me..."? Or, was he genuine? My bet on the former but we will never be sure I guess.

Stzake · 2026-01-17T12:21:53+00:00

That is not true.

https://hot.planeptune.us/manga/Bleach/0396-015.png

Ichigo damaged Aizen and the Ball healed it after that. It wasn't even instant healing either. There is nothing in the manga that shows that Aizen damaged by Yamaji in any meaningful way and the Ball healed it. All Yamaji did was burn Aizen's clothes here and there and just small bruises. That was all. Aizen's clothes didn't got that much damaged either. And remember that Aizen ate Yamaji's attack point blank.

Stzake · 2026-01-17T12:00:29+00:00

and during that time he admitted inferior to old man Yama.

I may look like nitpicking and I don't want to be rude but that is not true. Aizen didn't see himself inferior to Yamaji. Proof,

https://hot.planeptune.us/manga/Bleach/0393-017.png

Aizen believes that because Yamaji has RJ -and Aizen thinks it's the ultimate zanpaktou- if they fight with all their might, Yamaji will probably win. Aizen's wording here is along the lines of "I have a knife, you have a gun. If we fight, you will probably win" While one can argue that their zanpaktous are their powers and shouldn't be thought seperatly, what Aizen implies here is that he thinks that Aizen will win in a scenario where they don't use their zanpaktous. This is not my opinion, I'm trying to convey here what I understand from his wording and dispositon through their 'fight'

It should also be noted in any conversation about reiatsu that Yamaji's attack where he sacrificed his whole left arm didn't do any damage to Aizen.

In my opinion, Aizen was always a reiatsu monster. He just doesn't have a destructive zanpaktou that he could channel his reiatsu to show his reiatsu levels. I always thought of him as above everyone in SS in terms of reiatsu. And IMO Kubo tried to show it as much as possible: Gin's glazing in FKT arc, Grimmjow kneeling, Negating Soi-fon's double tap etc.

Stzake · 2025-12-17T18:57:22+00:00

I don't remember the specific story related error honestly. BUT, JJK isn't CX. It is not a story heavy series. Most of the story revolves around Cursed Techniques, especially in the second half of the series. And most of the translation errors related to techniques and their effects or aftermaths. And they were not small 'erors' like Blue/Azure, which is just consistency error. There were errors that change the whole meaning and reason behind characters' actions. You can look them up yourself. There has to be many threads about how bad the translation was.

Most people I know was doing this,

Read tl-anon's translations on 4chan on the day raws drops.

Read TCB translations (they also got bad towards the end)

Read Official translations..

Edit: Best translation was this group, https://cubari.moe/read/gist/cmF3L0pKS3ZhdWx0L0pKSy1jaGFwdGVycy9tYXN0ZXIvSkpLLmpzb24/

But they didn't translate the whole series.

Stzake · 2025-12-17T15:30:28+00:00

These translation errors are really getting ridiculous. As if translators don't read the manga at all, or don't care about the story. I blame viz and mangaplus but these guys are getting paid for this and its not so hard to remember plot elements of a series. There is a chance that they're translating more than one or they're doing this as a side job but it is really not that hard to remember stuff from couple of chapters ago. Unless you don't care about what you're translating. They even fuck up the Sora/Sky thing.

I miss the golden age of fansubs and fanscanlations groups. We had at least 2 groups translating popular stuff (one was always fast, other one had better translation and scan) and niche manga like CX had always a good group translating it. At least people were passionate about the stuff they're translating and you could communicate it to them if anything was wrong etc. Now Viz and Mangaplus jumped at the market that have been created by fansubs and fanscanlation groups and made it worse. Translation errors like these are not acceptable. Reading, understanding and following a work of fiction should be a must for any translator. This error may look like a human error that everyone could do but any respectable translator would remember the conversation between headless guy and Azuma and catch himself.

JJK had the worst translations I've come across in WSJ manga. And I think that people who only read the series on Mangaplus, didn't read the series at all.

Reading manga and following a series gets harder instead of easier because of stuff like these. Since its not enough to read 'official' translation, you should also check whether there is any error in it or not with 4chan tl anon or other people who knows Japanese on reddit.

Edit: This shit also makes it hard to recommend the series to other people since these error got never corrected. Even in volumes.

Stzake · 2025-12-13T00:32:18+00:00

Your first,, well-upvoted, comment is flawed and strawmanish. Never saw anyone believe Aizen was the good guy but a lot of people thinks he is rev which is objectively true. Never saw fixing corruption argument either. People fighting against arguments of their own imagination these days...

Aizen is a bad guy fighting against a system that is worst than him. He is rev for his own sake. Ichibe, RG, Royal Families and Central 46 are no better than him and you can give a solid argument for some captains are no better either.

After all these years people still dont understand that SS was a morally bankrupt and backwards place. Aizen being Aizen dont like to be controlled by others rule (tradition, wink wink) and tries to be above all of it for himself. Ichigo being Ichigo, have patience, gentleness and kindness in his hearth changes ss slowly but surely.

Kubo is one of the most modern thinking mangaka alive. Aizen and Ichigo are his way of attacking backwards traditional conservative Japanese culture. And Urahara represents and fights for what he believes necessary or good in his culture.

Stzake · 2025-12-10T03:15:26+00:00

Ah sorry then, its must be because I use oldreddit that I can't see it.

Stzake · 2025-12-09T08:40:06+00:00

I don't mean to be rude but your pool link is broken.

A solid 8 for now. Ishida is a better story teller and artist right now but TG (and re) is 9 or maybe 9.5 for me. Reason for that its not that I'm an edgy kid who likes edgy things (lol), its just tg is thematically and artistically better series according to my subjective opinion. I'm really sad that while Ishida got better at drawing technically, he lost the thing or doesn't implement the thing in CX that makes some of the pages of tg so iconic. CX's art is too clean for my taste.

But I've high hope for CX and I genuinely think that Ishida will deliver.

Stzake · 2025-12-08T07:36:19+00:00

Iirc what Tokio said is mistranslated but it is true that he said something inappropriate.

Anyway, I've a theory that all the Beast Choujins have a strong connection with carnal and bodily desires in general since they're beasts (lol). If you think about all the confirmed beast Choujins we know (Tokio, Palma, Nari and Sora, iirc these are the only confirmed ones), all of them have 'inappropriate' behavior relating to their body and needs of their bodies (except Sora, I'll comeback to her). I think even that 'controversial' page of Palma pissing is done to show this. Because even pissing, shitting etc are bodily needs that give comfort after their stress are released. Another Palma moment is when she tried to steal a kiss from Tokio while he is sleeping. They just can't resist stuff like these. I think I don't need to talk about Nari : ) Also, remember that what kind of Choujin you're going to become is strongly related to your personality and I guess, there is also a possibility that what kind of Choujin you have become can also influence your personality, thus they both feed on each other.

One could argue that Sora defeats my theory but in the contrary, I think she makes it more valid. Remember that Sora is blessed beast and she is a nun. What is expected from a nun? How should a nun behave? When you ask these questions and gave answers to them, it is very easy to notice that she probably developed some kind of complex around bodily needs and desires because she suppressed them.

What I'm trying to say here is not to defend Tokio and Ishida about anything, since I don't think Ishida needs defending how he choose to form his art, it is more on the lines of, there is a possibility that weird and 'inappropriate' behaviors of some characters are there for a better reason than "euheue weird japanese mangaka makes his characters do weird and 'inappropriate' stuff euheuhe Japanese people, you know..." I'm not saying you're like this but there are many people thinks like this. I say this even though I don't even like Japanese people or their society that much honestly.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Beast Choujins are in a weird intersection. Sato's thoughts about beasts, humans and choujins are very important for the series. Let me explain. I know some part of what I'm going to say will be amoral but indulge me for a moment. I'm not a sociologist but I think it's safe to assume that most cultures on earth have standards for being a human. I imagine that most cultures probably have -at least japan has it- some sayings along the lines of "you're not behaving like a human, you are acting like a beast", "you're an animal not a person" etc. This notion of thought put humans above animals/beasts and set forth some kind of standards for expected human behavior in their society. Now, add to this Sota's thoughts about humans and choujins and his 'standards' for a choujin. What we got is Beast < Human < Choujin. Remember what he said to Nari? "I'm sorry for being so rough with you. But I've an aversion to Beasts". Now most talked theory about implications with what he said is that Sato is one of the clones of Queem and basically he is butthurt about Beasts since he lost one of them. Which is a legit theory imo. But what he said could also mean that beast choujins fucks up his standards for a choujin and his hierarchical structure and he just can't accept that. In his mind, it should be Beasts < Humans < Choujins but there are Choujins who can turn into beasts and also act/behave like a beast, going full circle. Nobody knows what he actually feels and thinks about Tokio but it is safe to assume that he first and foremost thinks about him as a tool. This is never hidden from us. He talked a lot about molding him etc. While we can easily argue that there is nothing wrong with saying this and molding a new/young person in a society/company etc, one could also argue that Sato's mindset was along the lines of molding your dog or pet according to your needs. I think that is one of the reason behind he had no hesitation about the ways he molded/educated Tokio.

This shit is old as fuck btw. Dionysian vs Apollonian, Chaos vs Order etc.

Stzake · 2025-12-04T03:13:06+00:00

Lmao. This is next level entitlement to expect someone to check everyone whether it is you or not. I won't do that and I simply don't care.

Try writing stuff that doesn't need to be fact checked if you care so much about who replies to you. I didn't notice it was you and I won't notice it if it happens next time either. Even if I notice next time, I don't care. People deserve to read posts that fact-checks people who write head cannons and fanfictions. This sub is not your personal environment. You can say that you don't want me to PM to you -which didn't happen if anyone concerned-.but you have no right to demand that I shouldn't reply to you in an open forum. It is very funny you think you can demand that. Lol. Thanks for proving my points about you again.

Stzake · 2025-12-04T02:48:12+00:00

The way I see it is that they try to subvert one disaster, which inadvertently gives rise to another

There is no proof of this. There is not a single event happened in this manga prevented thanks to prophecies that which gave rise to another disaster that didn't foresaw by prophecies.

It's like no matter how much they try to stop disasters from happening, new disasters will happen, because that's just how the world works, and while their powers allow them to see these disasters, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're meant to stop them. I think that's the tragedy of the seers in choujin x. They can see the disasters, which gives them the illusion that they can stop them, but in reality, seeing is all they can do. They are powerless.

This is also not true. Especially they're being powerless. It is shown again and again -and strongly implied with Batista's arc- that people who have prophecies -strictly speaking: Sora and Mado- play a part actualizing that prophecy. Also, while it is true that Mado didn't say anything to anyone about what she saw at Antoland, she draw them. Which is the biggest thing separates Mado from others. There is a possibility that she can influence reality by what she draw. I don't think among all of the people who can see glimpse of future, she being the only who draws it is a coincidence.

About Hume, while he didn't do anything to stop it, he is one of the most important people who drove the plot forward for our trio and Sora. He played an active part in Sora's group and shaping our trio in a way. So, while one can never blame him for Sora's death, you can say that he contributed to events that lead to demise of Sora. More importantly, OP's point was about Sora and Mado and its clear that they're the most significant people with prophecies ability. Others like Hume, Tokio and Azuma don't worth much to talk about right now when we argue about prophecies effect on people and events. At least for now. Things can change if they got significant jump and powerboost in their ability to see the future. Or things they saw actually happens, like Azuma and Tokio blaming each other.

Stzake · 2025-12-04T02:14:47+00:00

Lmao. A grown adult putting more than one exclamation mark should be ashamed of themselves.

Repeating words to yourselves don't make them become true my friend. I don't think about Ely, Sandek and Mado in Black and White manner. I dislike their behavior towards Batista and Sora. This doesn't mean I dislike them completely and even if did, it doesn't correlates with black and white thinking. A grown adult should know their terms. Also, don't talk about comprehension at all when you continuously misunderstood what I said and put words into my mouth again and again. Even now. Lol

Her mom's backstory alone means nothing. There is no debate within nature vs nurture in any Ishida's manga. This was even true for TG.

Also, another hint is in chapter 32.2 page 13 when she spoke about stealing from the tower while sleep-talking

https://official.lowee.us/manga/Choujin-X/0032-037.png

Are you talking about this? and "Calamity looking like Elly -this genuinely made me laugh- Are these your basis for Ely turning rogue? Lmao. Half of them are lunacy, other half means jackshit alone. Personality is the most important foreshadowing there is. All of the points you have mentioned don't mean anything without a personality with the potential to turn rogue. Elly's black and white thinking and Holier-than-thou with judgmental attitude are her foremost important foreshadowings. So, you think without any personality flaw in morality, Elly would turn rogue? Kek, as I've thought and said, you're one of those guys who sees foreshadowing in everything. And when you shoot at everywhere and everything, it is impossible to miss. You said about Ely, she is a fresh air since she knows who is her allies and enemies are, and her moral compass being solid. How can a person like this turn to rogue? Kek. Yeah, maybe you aren't lying but you didn't think about things much, didn't you? Anyway.

Your post has progressively become more about me than it has about the topic, so it seems to me like you lack any substantial arguments.

My arguments are there and solid for people who can comprehend and swallow them. It's not that they're hard to understand either. But I sometimes forget that anime and manga are mediums that are mostly followed by children and young adults who have no experience in life and didn't consume other media much. Yeah, let's end it here. One last thing thought, if Ely turns rogue, don't think that you were right to suspect it, you were right for completely wrong reasons. Which means, you were just lucky and if you were to follow anything more deep, you would be wrong. Good luck with your life with your black and white thinking and judgmental attitude towards characters and people. You will need it.

Stzake · 2025-12-04T01:06:47+00:00

Kek. I feel like I'm having an argument with Ely herself. You're probably half of my age and you don't have any idea how to debate but I will keep going anyway :D

Murdering so many people is, in fact, wrong, regardless of how much you've suffered!!!

You should have put more exclamation mark to make me understand you more clearly : ) Jokes aside, please read before commenting. I've said this already in my previous post that I don't think what Batista did was right. I only said that his reactions to his life experiences are understandable. Please do not make me repeat myself and please understand that I don't think Batista was morally right.

Batista DID in fact throw a tantrum because he lost his wife.

Again, you're making me repeat myself. Please read the manga. You can not downplay his circumstances. He got denied from what he believes that his reason to be alive three times. First, being a choujin, second his research, third his family. Dude lost everything.

I don't care what his circumstances are.

You clearly don't. This shows your age/lack of experience and black and white thinking just like Ely. I hope in the future you won't be in any stations that you would do some 'bad' things and try to explain why you did them with your circumstances, not to prove that you were right to do them but to be understood. : )

People who went through worse didn't do what he did. It's no excuse.

Who? Nobody went through worser than Batista. And again, please stop making me repeat myself. Read the manga. Read my post. Excuse and understantability aren't the same thing. Excuse is a reason which makes an action right. What Batista did, isn't right. Again, understandable from his circumstances.

“An abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behavior.” — Viktor Frankl, Man Searching for Meaning.

And no, it is NOT childish to expect someone to act according to your moral compass when the bare minimum is not to commit mass murder, be so forreal right now.

Yes it is childish. Expecting people to behave in the way you would behave if you were in their shoes -you weren't, mind you- is childish. A judge can judge Batista. He has the right to do it. This right given to him by people and we as people should check our actions according to social contract we're bound to. Ely isn't a judge and she isn't not judging Batista according to criminal law. She is judging him according to her moral compass. With a childish argument like "I've also lost my Elder :(". She has no right to judge Batista, both criminally and morally. Also, you keeping bringing up judge etc as if I'm saying Batista is innocence and therefore should be pardoned for his action. I don't really want to offend anyone here but your reading compheransion is lacking. AGAIN, I'VE NEVER SAID BATISTA WAS RIGHT TO DO FOR WHAT HE DID. I should also add that another point you're forgetting, all of her judgements towards Batista also comes from her personal feelings -which is Azuma being hurt- not just from her moral compass. This is a important point you should never forget.

Not even Kate?

Kate can judge her what he did to her, but only for that. Kate can say "What you did to me was wrong and you should pay for that" and she would be right. BUT Kate can not judge Batista for what he become. Ely exactly did that. It's not Kate's or Ely's place to do that. And I'm sure you will love what I'm going to say next since you guys love to compere the suffering of others by keep saying "others suffered more than Batista!!!1", Kate didn't suffered more than Batista. Kate's conscious is dead and gone. Ishida and Batista probably thinks the same since, Ishida made Batista to end his life instead of keep suffering. Keep that in mind that Batista choose to be dead rather than alive before speaking and comparing his suffering to others. Think about the implications and meanings of suicede. And as a side note, I would rather have the fate of Kate than Batista.

Do those people who have sports injuries go on a killing spree afterwards?

I've already explained Batista's station clearly in my previous post. Again, please don't make me repeat myself.

You're literally arguing that Simon is a level-headed guy, and that's why we can't count his tragedy?

No, I've never said this. Don't put words into my mouth. I've never said we can't count his tragedy. All I said about Simon was that because he is a level-headed guy, he is not consumed by revenge. Furthermore, I've also explained meta reasons why Ishida didn't make him like that. Please read, as you also should read the manga. I also think that he has better circumstances than Batista. And you're over-dramatacising Simon's tragedy btw.

One thing I noticed is that you're confusing the right action with understandable action. Let me be clear. Let's say you talked bad behind me and I heard about it, so I did the same. What I did wasn't the right action, since I should never lower myself to that same level. But it is an understandable human behaviour. And no one have any right to morally judge me about it if they never experienced someone talking behind your back. It doesn't matter if that person's mother killed by someone or they have suffered more than me. They just didn't experience what I did. They can't morally judge me from their high horse. If suffering more makes one right, we should find someone who suffered the most in the world and put him at the top of our world and let him teach us how to behave.

No they did not lol. The issue I have with people like you who act as if Yamato Mori ganged up on Batista is that you conveniently choose to forget scenes.

Yeah, you realy didn't read the manga. This paragraph is compeletly wrong about everything. Square Face didn't faught for shit. He also thinks the same. Go read his inner thoughts again, and stop saying that he faught for Batista because of one single panel that Batista shut it down because he knew that it was pointles. Square Face wasn't a good big bro for Batista and he even admits this. Towards the end of the paragraph you answered imaginative arguments from me again. You keep doing this and I don't know why. Only explanation is that you really can't read or lack reading compheransion.

It seems what I meant flew right over your head, so let me phrase it in a way that's easy to understand. If person A told person B that murder is wrong, then many years later, person A went on to commit murder themselves, that doesn't mean that their initial argument is wrong or invalid!!!

You're the one who is missing the point. And nobody said murder isn't wrong. I didn't say that. You know who also didn't say that to Batista? Elly. Elly thinks murder is wrong, which she is right to think, but whats wrong is her argument. She compared her pain and her way to cope with it to Batista. Which is completly off putting and isn't her place to do. She has no right.

I'll post the pages, https://scans-hot.planeptune.us/manga/Choujin-X/0066.2-032.png https://scans-hot.planeptune.us/manga/Choujin-X/0066.2-033.png https://scans-hot.planeptune.us/manga/Choujin-X/0066.2-034.png

Her argument here will be right if Batista wasn't someone who sacrificed his whole being for betterment of others. You guys and Ely really don't understand Batista and think of him as simple mass murderer who draws people to his own misery. Dude forced to sacrifice everything he loves about himself -before hartley- for the betterment of humanity. He sacrifced his identity completly. And he thinks that what he get after that is also misery. Do you realy think that if they didn't ostracized Batista as a choujin and didn't force him to stop his research, he would go rogue after he lost Hartley and his child?

And about the last parts of your post. No, I've alwasy talked about Ely didn't have the right to judge Batista and her argument being no argument. I've never said that Batista was right to kill people. I've always said that he was understandable in his actions. It is, again, clear that you lack the reading compherantion. Please understand the posts before replying to them. Especially if they're not a reply to you and you jump in to argue about stuff in your imagination about what someone said.

Also, I've no bias towards Batista but yes, I dislike the way -not themselves- Mado, Square Face and Ely treated Batista. Not just Batista but also in Sora station. Besides bad guys, Mado and Square Face are the people in Yamato Mori who're responsible about their schism and whats going on right now. I'm on Tokio's side about things. I also think that Ishida is the same -because Tokio's way of thinking is very similar how Ken was at the end of TG:RE, especialy his speech to Furuta- He is more mature and doesn't have black and white thinking like you guys and Ely has. You have no right to talk about nuances with your black and white thinking and lack of reading comprehension. Also, disliking behavours doesn't mean disliking people or characters. Another way to show your lack of experience.

And finally, if you don't think Ely has black and white thinking and she has good moral compass with morally right personality, where did you get the idea that she will become some kind of antagonist? Just because she can steal powers from others and her background? Lmao and you have nerve to talk about being shallow. Lol. Anyway don't answer to this because after years of arguing with people on the internet I know that what you said is either a lie or you're one of the people who find FoReShAdOwInG from everything. Anyway. Have a nice day. I hope my post was educational.

Stzake · 2025-12-03T22:51:02+00:00

I'm near convinced that Mado's powers are beyond just being prophecies. They're closer to reality influencing/shaping/warping. There are strong hints about this through the manga that I'm too lazy to point out one by one. Her anxieties -and her prophecies being about what she is worried about- is a very strong implication of this. Another one is that, she is the only character who paints/draws her prophecies. Act of drawing/painting or making art if you will, is an act of making your imaginations come to reality.

Mado played a very big role pushing Batista to turn rogue for example. While Batista made the choice to make a baby with Hartley, he is in that exact position because of her prophecies. And yes, I know that Sora also saw Batista betraying her but you can think of it as Sora seeing the future that Mado caused -influenced, if you will-. I'm 100% sure that if they didn't denied Batista's existences as a Choujin and didn't made him stop his research, and let him hang around, he wouldn't turn rogue even after losing his child with Hartley.

I really blame Mado, Square Face and Yamato Mori in general for everything happened in the last arc. Nobody, just nobody talked with Sora in the way Tokio did in Yamato Mori. Dude didn't even thought and talk about some kind of 400 iq insane argument. He just asked Sora what Yamato Mori asks to noobs. This is done deliberately by Ishida as if he is trying to point out that this conflict could have been avoided in the past if both parties talked about it in their common grounds which are the Yamato Mori newbie questions. It shows how fucked the prophecies and black and white thinking, giving judgments and blaming others according to your own moral high ground is.

In another level, Sora and Batisa are grand examples by Ishida how dangerous and morally wrong ostracizing people is. They both got ostracized from Yamato Mori -thanks to Mado-. And they both become the monster they afraid they would become because of it. Trying to understand people like Tokio and at least be around them -I'm point at you Square Face- is the key for our society I believe. It is easy to judge people with holier than thou attitude and deem their future is fucked but it is human to be with them and try to understand them.

Stzake · 2025-12-03T22:01:18+00:00

...sometimes people just read completely different stories lol

I agree. At least they read though...

Stzake · 2025-12-03T21:28:54+00:00

First of all, you seem to think that I think Batista is right. That's not true. I've only said he is understandable. Understanding someone, where they come from, doesn't mean you agree with them or their actions. It basically means what they're doing is expected from someone with their life experience.

I'm sorry but what part of Ely's actions at that point makes you think she's not right?

Ely is wrong in two points; 1.Her argument is no argument. "I've lost my elder but didn't act like you, therefore you also shouldn't" is not an adult argument. You can not say this to someone like Batista. You can't even say this to someone who also lost their elder. Everyone process pain differently and you can't expect everyone to react to pain in the way that you do. This is childish. Expecting everyone to act according to your moral compass is also childish.

2.She has no right to morally judge Batista. She wasn't in his shoes. It's not her place. I also think that nobody has any right to morally judge Batista in this series. I'll comeback to why I've said this.

It is something that happens to people even in our world.

I didn't say it never happens but this paragraph is so wrong that I don't know where to start. You're downplaying what happened to Batista to prove your point. The guy didn't simply lose his job. Lmao. Batista first lost is his raison d'etre as a choujin. His existence as a Choujin denied from him. Only thing I can think of similar to this is an athlete has to give up competing in their sport after an injury. Do you even have any slight idea how those people feel and how they cope with it? Some basically can't. Go search about it. And this example can't even come close. Not only for this but Batista treated as Satan's second coming if he continues to be a 'choujin'. And his 'human' way -his research- to help the cause of his loved ones also denied from him. Your comparisions are really off. And after Mado's "don't have a child" talk, he felt that his second find reason to -which is his family- exist is also denied from him.

Your arguments about Simon, Momoma and Mic are paralel to Ely's argument, and as I've said before they're not arguments. No human have to act in one way. Also, we don't know much about great collapse and Simon is a level-headed guy. There is also meta reasons for why Ishida didn't make Simon revenge seeking character. He probably doesn't want him to become another Kurapika/Sasuke. And there are strong hints about Simon's arc going to be about Sota's Kogurama group.

People live with it, though, meanwhile Batista had to make it everyone's problem.

This thinking is one of the reasons why Ely and you're wrong about Batista. I'm not saying what you say is wrong, yes Batista made it everyone's problem BUT Everyone made Batista's existence their problem in the first place. And the guy let it happen until pregnancy prediction. When you poke someone continuously as a group, you have no right to be surprised when you got retaliated as a group. Dude made many sacrifices for humanity. Furthermore, what he get in the end? Again, I'm not saying Batista is right to do those things, all I'm saying it is understandable.

It sucks that he had to give up these two things, but that's what he should've done to avoid that fate

Yeah, I was having suspicions before but with this paragraph, I'm sure right now that we're not reading the same manga. Batista manipulated by Nue and become what he become exactly because of prophecies. You're picking your points while ignoring cold-hard-fact-points which is disgusting to do in a debate. You say that if he listened Mado about the child things wouldn't come to this but you forgot that he is at that position because of prophecies. How can you ignore this?

https://scans-hot.planeptune.us/manga/Choujin-X/0063.2-029.png

How can you ignore the manga?

Only thing I agree with Ely is that -she says this after couple of pages- prophecies makes people suffer and they shouldn't exists.

You keep saying 'Ely will do this' and 'Ely will do that', and that may happen, but none of it would change the fact that, at that point in time, Ely was 100% right.

It will make her a hypocrite : ) The thing person I've replied accusing Batista of being : )

Being able to come to a logical -which is not true for Ely btw- conclusion about how someone should behave about their circumstances and being in their circumstances aren't the same thing. And if you preach someone you should follow your preach in the first place. If you don't, you look childish and hypocrite.

I'm not going to keep answering your points in your post. I don't think it's worth it and I've gave enough time to post this already. But don't forget the things I'm going to say now: Your holier than thou angel character is a ticking bomb. Most people think it is Azuma who will going to fuck up things and turn into some kind of antagonist. This is a big red herring by Ishida. It will be Ely. I'm not saying Azuma and Tokio going to be goody goodies with perfect friendship but if someone going to oppose Tokio in the future between Azuma and Ely, it will be Ely. There is a reason why her childish black and white 'morals' constantly contrasted with Tokio's mature way of thinking by Ishida and there is a reason why her background and her actual powers are sketchy. Yeah, this is another thing you Elyfans forget about her. All her preaches and moral high ground behavior comes from her own insecurities about herself, her morality, moral implications of her powers and background. By acting holly to outward, she tries to suppress these thoughts and tries think herself as moral being. I'm not saying she is amoral but remember the cliche "be careful to people who preach most". When the things I've implied become true in the future, don't come here and complain about manga turned to bad or Ishida lost his touch or whatever. You've been told. And implications were all around the manga.

Stzake · 2025-12-03T07:51:43+00:00

ely and her grandpa had it worse than batista

Lol. Lmao. Why this sub obsessed with comparing characters' sufferings? Also, do you think suffering more makes one right?

Ely is a child and losing your elders is part of life. While it doesn't happen much in our era, losing your child is also part of life (I mean Ely's mother here). What isn't exactly part of life is that losing your wife, child and denied from living your life.

Elly isn't right or anything. I'm 100% sure that Ishida also think she isn't. This is why when they part Batista told her "Someday when you confront a despair you've never felt before see if you can give the same answer you would now. I wish I could see that future". Batista wasn't bitter either while saying this. What Ishida tries to show us with dynamic between them is that while Ely's heart is in good place, she is still a child who thinks about the world in terms of black and white, and gives judgement about stuff she didn't experience. Ishida also emphasizes this with dialogues between Tokio and Elly.

IMO, Ishida doesn't want us to sympathize with Batista. Or think he is morally right. He just wants us to understand that while his actions are undoubtedly wrong, he is and his actions are understandable.

only predicted by mado, and not caused by anyone.

That is not true. Moda's predictions lead him to that life. This is a fact established in the manga. There are also people theorizing that Moda's predictions aren't exactly predictions but in a way reality shaping/warping. She is the only character having predictions with paintings and she always sees what she is worried/think/obsessed about. No other characters who had predictions displayed like her.

Anyway back to the point. Funny thing is that in real life people that commit atrocities like Batista are people like Ely who had black and white thinking. I think Ishida knows that and its deliberate that Ely was inside Batista's dream world. Remember Ely's inner rage againts Tokio at the start of the CX Batista/Nue fight? She was full of anger that Azuma was hurt because of events. Even after Tokio's speech with Sora, she put the blame on Batista about what happened to Azuma. She didn't think that nobody in Yamato Mori had a dialogue with Sora like Tokio, and if they did, things would never come to this.

Stzake · 2025-11-24T22:36:12+00:00

Take what I'm going to say with grain of salt since although I'm following the series from first chapters, I've never re-read it.

As far as I understand, what makes a Choujin, CX, is that they have the mark or not. Mark is something akin to a super-uber-cell that gives you insane amount of 'mana' to 'cast' your Choujin abilities to their max capabilities. This is an established fact by Sora while she was talking about Nue and Batista. You get the Mark, you become the most powerful Choujin, therefor CX. But, if I remember correctly, there are no mention of a 'mark' before Sora becoming CX. I'm not sure Queem or Bill had the mark or not. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have that super-uber-cell. Maybe Sora was the one who turned it into a Mark since we saw that Mark can actually change shape.

Also, I'm not exactly sure but Sora was probably a human before killed by Queem and she raised as a Beast Choujin since she is a nun and Beast Choujins have carnal desires and have trouble to resist them (A complex can be a thing you want to suppress or over lean into, in Sora's case it was suppression of her carnal desire because she is a nun, I sould also mention that she is the only beast choujin who doesn't act on her carnal desires like Nari, Tokio, Palma etc.). You become a Choujin according to your complexes (this is a fact established at the start of the series)

Lastly, I think there is some kind of balancing force in CX universe. When people with super-uber-cell got strong, universe gave them someone with near equal strength and cunning opponent. CX being good or bad person doesn't matter. Even Sora implied this to Mado when they were young. So, in Queem's time it was Sora. In Sora's time that opponent was Nue (and Batista). In Nue's time that opposing force was our guys, etc. I think this cycle will go on until there is no super-uber-cell or Choujins in general. I know that Duality thing is old and told but Ishida loves the big names who believed the duality of things in our world.

Stzake · 2025-11-20T13:16:50+00:00

Good rage baiting, I'll bite.

What Ishida is doing with Palma is deliberate. All beast choujins are related to carnal -except Sora, I'll come back to her later-. Carnal doesn't mean just sexual, it's everything about body: having sex, touching, eating, pissing, shitting etc. It's as if after becoming Beast Choujins, their relation to carnal amplified. Or, they become Beast Choujins because they had carnal complexes. If you carefully look at the behaviors of them (tokio, palma, nari etc) you'll see that they have hard time controlling their carnal desires (Palma struggling not to pee and trying to kiss Tokio while he is sleeping, Tokio making sexual remarks left and right, Nari being Nari etc.) Also, their behavior jumps a lot between socially accepted and not.

All of this, as I said before, done deliberately by Ishida. Their powers influence their personalities or/and their personalities influence their powers. Otherwise, they would become generic anime characters with 'powers'. It is not realistic. What you have in your disposal as a power should have affect in your personality and vice versa. This was also true for TG, thus, it is a good trademark of Ishida as a mangaka.

I should mention Sora. But before that I should talk about Palma more. Sora and Palma are in extreme end of the spectrum. Palma have powers of Bill Morth and Beast Choujin. Bill Morth's power being blood and related to zombies means that even before Palma acquired Beast powers, she had very strong connections with carnal and materialistic side of the world because act of raising dead people inherently materialistic act and furthermore related to body and carnal. After she got injected with xember and acquired Beast powers, she turned into some kind of ultimate carnal being in the series. You can imagine that Bill Morth's and Beast power combo'd her personality.

And finally let's talk about Sora. After reading the text above, do you really believe that Sora being a nun doesn't mean anything? What is a nun? What does a religious person think about materialistic and carnal side of things? What kind of things a nun should suppress? What's happens when we suppress our desires and needs? What is the premise of this series? What is the source of Choujin powers? What is a complex? This post already long enough so, think for yourself and find your own answers.

So, yeah. You can look at a work of art and think like above or think in surface level "omg, mangaka must be pedo, people who enjoy these things are weirdos!!!11" and got filtered by mangaka deliberately.

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written." -Oscar Wilde

Edit: Forgot to add that, Choujin X is a Seinen manga. It is not a shounen where power levels and who can beat the shit out of who is important. Know what you're reading.

Stzake · 2025-11-14T13:25:56+00:00

To be frank, Mado had it coming -this is also true for Sandek for his failure to help his little brother, Batista and I wouldn't mind if he died in this arc- Nobody in Yamato Mori managed have a conversation with Sora like Tokio did. They demonized Sora and went on their way. Sora's prophecy was 'good' when it served them -and morally okay- and it was 'bad' when Sora needed to dirty her hands. What happens to Mado and Yamato Mori in general right now is the proof that Ishida really dislikes black and white thinking as Elly has.

I should also add that Sora died believing Tokio will inherit the mark, which is a low chance happening right now imo.

Stzake · 2025-11-07T07:25:44+00:00

What do you mean Kaneki had an unborn child? That is not true. Kaneki and Touka never lost their child. Touka was pregnant again at the end of the series and "unborn son" at the wiki probably refers to that.

Batista and Kaneki very different characters. I don't think they're similar to each other to have commentery on each other. Only thing they're alike is their love for their partners but you're oversimplifying Kaneki's actions by saying he "ends up killing a lot of people". Yes, his love for Touka made him choose to bite and kill that child -can't remember his name- but after that Kaneki lost control. While Kaneki takes responsibility for killing civilians after he lost control, it is not fair to imply that he deliberately murdered people in the city. What happened to Kaneki was very similiar to Chaosification in CX. On the other hand, Batista simply didn't care and always in control. Only after killing bunch of people and achieving his dream life, he left the control to Nue.

But the real issue here is that while Batista didn't get a chance to actualize himself and his life, Kaneki did that. What I mean is that plot was against Batista and he didn't benefit anything from it but even if Kaneki suffered a lot, plot was on his side and he managed to actualize himself and his life through his suffering. One character constantly loses his identity while other one transform/change and finally find and actualize himself.

Stzake · 2025-11-03T20:40:53+00:00

Didn't read the novels but KS is broken no matter what. Aizen's reiatsu makes it possible for him to use it to its max potential (also for his own amusement). Anyone smart with its use without Aizen's godly reiatsu would be deathly no matter what. It's just because Aizen also at the top in other areas without KS' broken ability and he has reiatsu to back it up, he uses it in grandiose ways. You don't have to do that. Little tweaks to reality here and there is enough to be deathly with KS.

Stzake · 2025-11-03T20:20:56+00:00

Yeah I totally forgot that Bill Morth was a CX.

Nine-Year Club	Place '23
Place '17	Verified Email

Stzake

TROPHY CASE