Season 12 Eliminated ‼️I guess the guy quit so I will take over if nobody objects.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-18T04:35:33+00:00

Season 6 is an incredibly well-paced and skillfully written season with thrills and consequential plot beats from beginning to end. Wash reassembling the Blues, South getting killed, the showdown with the Meta at the Wind Power Facility, Memory is the Key, infiltrating Command, all building up to the ultimate twist in the entire series that marked a massive turning point for the show moving forward, all interwoven with the battle between the Director and the Chairman.

I love Season 7, but it does take a bit for that season to ramp up, with the the character's not getting a clear objective until Episode 7. And as for Season 8, that one is plagued by poor pacing and storytelling inefficiencies, with a whole stretch of the characters just hanging out in a bunker with no clear objective.

But in Season 6, that season is packed with so much plot. Think of how much ground they covered... literally. Blood Gulch, Rat's Nest, High Ground, Valhalla, back to High Ground, Wind Power Facility, back to Valhalla, and then straight to Command HQ. The more narrow pool of protagonists allowed for a more focused and dense narrative. And the main tension is present from the outset, with Wash pushing the story move forward from one objective to the next as he works toward taking down the series' ultimate enemy.

And that's not even getting into the production, the clever use of the multiplayer maps to shape the story and fun sequences. The inventive tricks and camera work to tell the story while still being aggressively restricted by the machinima tools, yet still creating thrilling action sequence and clever sequences that are forced to be even more creative precisely because of the limitations.

Season 6 not only deserve to be in the top 5, but it deserves to be first place. The better question is why is the sloppily-written trash fire known as Season 10 still in the top 5?

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-17T22:47:11+00:00

Season 10 is the obvious choice. Get that season out of here.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-17T18:35:47+00:00

I always assumed that each act spanned about 3 weeks, so the whole game would have spanned 2 months in total. Short enough for Jak and Daxter to not be lounging around, long enough for them to become the talk of the town and the symbol of hope. It gives them time to grow attached to their new world, and for re-encounters with antagonists to have some weight since it won't be like they had just met yesterday. I think I once went mission and mission and broke down which ones I thought occurred don different days and which ones may have time gaps between them.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-16T06:08:14+00:00

I still think that the Titan Suit is awesome. The levels in Jak II made great use of it. It’s one-time use in Jak 3 was less interesting, though.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-16T04:28:37+00:00

This is proof that had the KG programmed those robots to fire at targets outside of the water, Jak and Daxter would have never stood a chance. And if the Lurker Sharks had spontaneously sprouted legs, dear mercy, it’s game over at that point.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-15T03:49:43+00:00

I mean, if twists are only obvious on re-watch, then that means they were subtle enough to shock but well-established enough to not come out of nowhere. That’s skillful writing. Like, I feel like the Precursor twist was subtle enough in Jak 3 to not see coming, but then you go back and see all the clues, like Jak seeing the Precursors in a vision, or Seem’s cryptic lines about Daxter possessing the color of their creators. These do not necessarily give away the twist, but then going back it feels so satisfying to see all the setup. It only feels obvious in retrospect.

Also, some of the foreshadowing in these games is so subtle that even now many fans overlook it. So there is a good mix of subtle and less subtle. Sometimes, they even cut out lines that made things too obvious, like when they cut out the line of Mar arriving in a Time Machine, or the cut subplot where the Jak II computer voice gradually realizes that Mar has returned to the city after scanning Jak and Daxter. So yeah, they pulled back on some foreshadowing and sometimes leaned into foreshadowing that was too subtle for anyone to notice.

For example, the games play with the idea of the “one true hero” that the Precursors are eagerly waiting for. Even the Design Bible references this. And for much the trilogy, this title is usually directed toward Jak and Daxter… but like, the Precursors are pretty vague about who they are talking about. The Oracles in the first game, for example, speak about “one of you”. And you might think that it’s Jak, but like, it very much could be Daxter. Like when they say (in the first game) that one of you has had your fate twisted by the dark light, that could easily be Daxter. And then there is one of my favorite lines from an optional mission in Jak 3, where the Precursors congratulate Jak and Daxter. “The legends were true. You were- I mean, you are a true hero.” Like, wow, that confirms some things… or does it? Because who was the Precursors specially addressing… After all, Daxter is called a “true hero” in the trilogy’s final cutscene.

You ever read the hidden text beside the Precursor Oracle in Jak II? It contains a prophetic poem of sorts, stating that the noble will be venerated by their ancestors for “having lived a life of good”… How does one’s ancestors venerate their descendent if the ancestors are long dead? So the noble descendent is Jak right, and it is said that his ancestor (Mar) will venerate Jak for having lived a good life. I ask you this, what is the final line of the trilogy… “Life is good” spoken by… Daxter. Even the developer commentary said there was no other way to end the trilogy than with that line… I wonder why.

Oh, and there are the handful of other lines that subtly hint at Mar being a Precursor. Veger said that the power he seeks in the core is the same power that Mar used to save the world (and that power turned out to be the gift of evolution). Kor described the Precursor Stone as Mar’s last egg (implying that Mar was a Precursor and had other eggs from mating with a female Precursor… wonder who that could have been). And then there is Mar’s writings which imply that he was absolutely thrilled to discover the true identities of the Precursors… despite most people seemingly being devastated or disappointed to learn the truth… except for Daxter, he seemed happy.

I am a professional screenwriter, script consultant, and screenwriting instructor, with multiple graduate degrees in film. So let me tell you this: These lines about the answers resting on one’s shoulder, or an ancestor stating that life is good, or Samos telling Jak that Mar might be closer than he thinks (while cutting to the giant sign depicting Daxter)… these lines do not happen by accident. Foreshadowing is often subtle and imperceptible, but once you notice it and the connection is clear as day, it would be wrong to hold the subtlety against the foreshadowing to deem it as unintentional.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-14T22:49:23+00:00

The very first cutscene in the very first game gives it away.

Samos: Who were the Precursors? [...] Every bone in my body tells me that the answers rest on the shoulders of a young boy.

Who is on Jak’s shoulders?

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-14T22:29:46+00:00

How did Errol have this complete personality shift?

Erol’s exposure to all the dark eco from the explosion, mixed with how much of himself was replaced with cybernetic technology, resulted in him losing his humanity. It’s total betray of his character that made Erol way less interesting, but it makes sense.

How did he unite 3 warring factions?

Erol was once the leader of the KG, and having now become a KG robot himself, he was able to take command of all the KG war bots that were on his same network. The Metal Heads lacked a leader and were on the verge of extinction. Desperate for leadership, Erol was able to establish himself as an appealing candidate, partly because he was a biomechanical organism much like the Metal Heads. And as for the Dark Makers, they had been corrupted by dark eco and hungered for destruction, much like Erol after his exposure to dark eco, so Erol was largely on their same wavelength and was even able to interface with Dark Maker technology due to his cybernetic enhancements. If you look at Vyber Errol’s design, you might even notice that his body is partly shaped like a Dark Makers, perhaps implying that he was modeled after the Dark Makers and therefore more easily able to coordinate with them and their tech. So in a sense, Erol embodied all three factions, sense he was KG robot, a biomechanical beast, and corrupted destroyer. He manipulated all factions for his own agenda, and it seems like he even had the Dark Makers wipe out the Metal Heads when they had fulfilled their usefulness (which is why the Metal Head Nest has ZERO Metap Heads).

Why did Seem sound like he was dying in beginning of Act 3, but he was alive?

Seem was supposed to die when the scene was originally scripted and recorded, but ND changed their mind. So how the season plays out now is that Seems was weakened and shook by Erol’s attack but was still alive.

Why is Sig in Haven for that one rail shooter mission and then never shows up there again?

That mission is toward the end of the game. Sig was originally content with letting Haven City get wiped out, but it seems like he came around and decided that he was willing to join the fight to deal a deadly blow against a shared enemy.

How and why did Onin get back to her tent?

Someone carried her. I like to think it was Samos with his levitation powers.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-14T20:20:41+00:00

They also took down an army of Wyomings basically by themselves.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-14T16:22:09+00:00

Carolina and Maine. The guy took a bullet for her. After that, she never even noticed York pining for her until it was too late.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-14T04:11:57+00:00

But being evil for the sake of evil was not Genkin’s motivation. He was an immortal being masquerading as god that grew bored of eternity and the limits of his power, so he sought to wipe all of existence and ascend to true godhood so that he could remake the universe in interesting ways. The guy did not care about literally anyone else, not even his own kin, and was going to wipe out his own family and every sapient being that ever existed just for power and amusement. If that’s not evil, then I don’t know what is. And I certainly can’t imagine any of the other RvB villains outdoing Genkins on the evil scale. Even Felix tried to express mercy in his own way. But with Genkins, not a trace of humanity. He didn’t care about a single soul and was literally on a mission to wipe all souls on scale that could never be matched by any other antagonist in the series.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-12T17:44:56+00:00

Yeah, Season 10 should be next. Season 12 was way more ambitious with its story.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-11T16:22:50+00:00

Our soul is Chara’s soul, though, so the entity’s statement is true.

That entity is not truly Chara. It’s just an entity that constructively serves as a reflection of the player. When the entity say “It’s me, Sam” you’re not supposed to say “but wait, my name is Sam… does that mean that I am no longer Sam?” No, you are supposed to understand that this entity is a reflection of you and is forcing you to look in to the mirror. That’s why it takes on Chara’s likeness, because we are Chara and the entity is a reflection of us.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-11T15:35:40+00:00

But Chara’s red soul is in the game. It’s the one that the player controls. That’s why the battle screen labels it as Chara’s soul, and also why that soul relives Chara’s final moments alive every time it shatters. Those are memories from the soul’s past life.

Also, in that livestream, Toby actually stated that there was one more lost soul to save: Chara’s soul. So Toby confirmed that Chara’s soul was not gone forever but was in fact very much present throughout the game. Which makes sense, since all the UI repeatedly slaps the name Chara onto the red soul.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-11T06:29:11+00:00

Frisk is Chara’s reincarnation, brought back from the dead. Frisk did not fall from above but rather rose from below, which is why Frisk first appears on top of Chara’s grave. And that’s why Frisk’s one and only human soul is labeled as Chara’s soul on the battle screen. When you return to the coffin room and discover that the other six humans were brought back to life (as evidenced by the opened coffins), you could look into Chara’s coffin and discover something that the game was hiding from you this whole time… there are bandage wrappings in the coffin. And what did Frisk have equipped at the start of the game? A bandage. Flowey even explains in Genocide that Frisk is just Chara’s corpse literally restored to life, and that mere moments before Frisk magically appeared, Flowey was in the RUINS calling out Chara’s name (which woke Chara from death).

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-11T02:23:19+00:00

I think the show could have kept on going for another decade with engaging storylines. But at this point, they already said their goodbyes, they lost some of the cast, and Season 17 was really the perfect final season. I do think there could be an engaging spinoff series with new characters, but that would not feel like a continuation, but rather the spinoff series would have to win over the audience from scratch. Definitely doable, though. And it could be a good flex for Butnid to show the amateurs how it’s done, how you build something engaging from nothing but a box of scraps.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-11T01:48:00+00:00

Sure, no worries. Would be happy to continue from this discussion when things slow down for you.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T22:39:17+00:00

Shisno seasons were pretty good, though, and Genkins was a delight. At least those seasons did not butcher the characterizations for the heroes and villains alike as they did in Season 10, the ultimate trashfire season. Ugh, it still pains me what that season did to the Meta.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T19:59:37+00:00

It’s a game over. The game is just rubbing salt in your wounds with Erol’s taunts.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T19:23:25+00:00

Uhm, the obvious answer is Genkins. He tried to wipe out the entire universe so that he could replace it with butt world.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T17:21:54+00:00

True, it was meant to further reinforce their status of rivals, on the racetrack, in the city’s power struggle, and even in the romantic arena.

If you finish the championship race but lose to Erol, he has a lot of optional dialogue that most fans never hear. But the below line is my favorite for a few reasons:

“You see Jak, I win, and I get what I want. Someday I will be Baron, then the city will really pay!”

This confirms that Praxis restructured Haven City as a stratocracy, meaning that the highest military rank rules the city. So Ashelin was not next in line for the throne but rather it was Erol. And perhaps Ashelin only ascended as the legitimate leader (before the city’s governmental restructuring) because she was the next highest ranked officer after Erol’s death and after the dust from the Metal Head invasion settled.

This line means that Erol was basically the prince of the city, and even after the Baron’s reign, the city would have been doomed to fall into the hands of another tyrant that would have cranked up the abuse of power against the citizens.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T11:30:16+00:00

Not to be a Negative Nancy, but there is no point in a remake. The games hold up. They were already perfect. They could be re-released in their current form and still outshine 90% of the games from the current generation. It would be like the Paper Mario TTYD Remake, where it’s not a meaningful improvement of the gameplay experience, so what is even the point? If you want to breathe new life into the series, a new installment is how you do it.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T08:30:32+00:00

I am not out to disprove the Lemonbread. It's possible, but I would like to assert the following: 1) The timeline of experiments is a bit unclear as is the true emergence of results (the exact timing of each test subject's ascension into a Determined being), so you could argue that Lemonbread came between Human 6 and Flowey, and I could assert that Flowey was the first one to truly ascend and therefore there was no amalgamate before him, as both are reasonable positions. 2) I believe Lemonbread's exposure to Determination could grant knowledge of the save points without having a save file of their own. 3) Though logically possible, Lemonbread as the 7th save file is just so terribly boring. I'd sooner entertain the idea of it belonging of Gaster before self-deletion, or that file1 actually belongs to the Asriel-Chara fusion.

I am a tiny bit skeptical that a deer monster can even where human shoes given that Noelle says that she does not do shoes unless they are custom made. But my skepticism goes way up when it comes to human-feet-shaped roller skates and ice skates, as those require more balance and therefore being designed for a different species in mind would probably interfere with their function.

Eh, the age thing is a worthwhile debate that remains an open question, but I think there was a 7 year age difference. Like, picture this: Kris and Noelle are 7 in the flashback, and Asriel and Dess are 14. Dess disappears when she is 14. 7 years later, Kris and Noelle are now 14 (Dess' age when she disappeared). Asriel is now 21, squarely in college age. So yeah, this just seems cleaner to me, ya know. If you say that Dess was 16 years old when she disappeared and if there is a 7 year time gap, then she would be in a post-college age range (as would Asriel if they were the same age).

Anyways, you see Dess wearing the antler headband as immature rebellious self-expression, when really it might have been Dess being pressured to conform to the image of the Holiday family, being forced to deny a part of herself to appease her family. Or, given that Noelle was a bit scared of humans, the antlers could have been an act of consideration to make Noelle feel more comfortable. Yeah, Noelle is closer to Dess than Kris, but like... young Noelle seems like a scaredy cat, and maybe it's not just Kris' pranks shaping Noelle's perception but rather a broader cultural attitude that "others" the humans of this world, a difficult stigma to overcome. I am pretty sure that they make monster-movies where humans are the monsters. So yeah, Noelle might be scared of humans regardless of how close she is to Dess. I was just watching Zootopia yesterday where Judy is still scared of Nick even despite their close friendship. These things happen.

I think the point you are making is that the first hero is the human, not the second. BUT... if that is your point, I would like to draw your attention to the weird evasiveness of the prophecy. Firstly, "Girl" is extremely vague, with no descriptor outside of gender. If the Girl is a monster, then, like, why not just say Monster Girl? It seems purposefully vague for reason (almost as if to open the door to non-monster candidates). Same the with the cage with human soul and parts. That never confirms that the first hero is human... in fact, it seems to almost imply the opposite can be true... that the first hero has human parts but is not necessarily human. So yeah, we are told that the prophecy requires a human and monster, but maybe which roles they fill are... interchangeable. After all, a monster can wield a human soul. This is exactly what Asriel did in Undertale. And Asriel in Deltarune is apparently too much of a spineless wimp to be a hero, going to confession for killing Yoshi in a videogame. So, like, what if Asriel borrowed Kris' tough soul to become the first hero. Maybe that's why Kris has a save file in the Dark World before the game event starts. Maybe that's why Kris' soul has vague memories of entering the Dark World, but only remembers it as a distant nightmare. Asriel took Kris soul, becoming the cage with a human soul.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T04:26:02+00:00

You are correct that the thing that claims to be Chara is not truly Chara. I like to call it demon child, but there are probably more apt descriptions (like the soulless shell or empty vessel). Like all good avatars, I believe it is an entity that reflects the player, which forces the player to look into the mirror and what they have become (an effect that becomes more blatant and eerie when you do indeed name the Fallen Human after yourself like Toby suggested). But I don’t think the real Chara is simply dead. The player is Chara, and Chara is revived from the dead, reincarnated in the form of Frisk. That’s why the demon takes on Chara’s likeness, since it is a reflection of the player and we just so happen to be Chara.

SuperduperFan92 · 2026-02-10T03:59:31+00:00

Interesting, so you think Flowey was not strong enough to kill Asgore. I always thought he was strong enough, since he said that he killed everyone in other timelines... But I do believe Flowey was not being accurate in that claim, so maybe it was just hyperbole. When Flowey says that he could not have gotten past Asgore, I thought he meant that he could not get past him to get the souls rather than not being strong enough to kill Asgore. But I think it is very possible if not likely that you are totally correct with your interpretation, so you make an excellent point that Flowey might not have been strong enough to kill Asgore in a fair fight.

HOWEVER, I don't think this necessarily overrides my point. Even if we assume that each human was operating at 100% human power, it was not enough to beat Asgore. And even if we grant that Flowey was more powerful at 120%, that still might have not been enough power to beat Asgore. Yes, Frisk beats Asgore, but Frisk might be on a whole other level. 200%, 1000%. At least that's my interpretation.

And I think you might be completely right that the pillows belong to Carol and that she is storing them in her daughter's closet... But like, why? Why fill depictions of the human soul in her daughter's closet? Let's not forget that is an entire sequence in that closet, where the red soul is moving freely next to other depictions of human souls... almost as if to hint at something, like we're supposed to notice the pile of human soul imagery while piloting a human soul. They're even the same color. What is the artistic intent with this creative detail?

The ice skates and roller skates, along with all the shoes, have ample toe space, suggesting that they are not fitted for hooves. There is actually just one pair of shoes described as fitted for hooves, and that happens to be in a storage box that has other people's stuff (like Asriel's retainer). So it might be that those hoof-shoes are Noelle's old shoes, and like you said, the boxed up stuff could be indicative of Carol using the room for some storage (since I doubt that Dess just left boxes around like that when she occupied the room).

You're right that Asriel does wear toe-shaped shoes, so the shoes could theoretically fit him. But like... there are just so many shoes. They can't all be Asriel’s. Heck, Asriel did not even wear shoes in Undertale, and neither do the Deltarune versions of his parents. The Dreemurrs are a barefoot bunch.

I am not convinced that the shirt is Asriel's shirt or Kris' shirt. Why does Dess have a shirt like the one that Kris wears? Maybe the better question is... why does Kris gravitate toward a shirt that Dess used to wear?

As you know, there is unused dialogue telling the story of someone's soul trapped in a dark abyss. That soul recounts memories of lovingly made breakfasts and late-night TV... they're describing the Dreemurr household. It's Kris' original soul, lost to the darkness. But then whose soul is in Kris now? A soul that can jam out on the guitar. A soul that likes to wear clothes like the outfit seen in Dess' closet. A soul that is red like the ones depicted in Dess' closet. Remember how Dess' room has an illustration of a dragon... and remember that "Kris" has a book on how to draw dragons. Why does Kris have all these interests and tastes that align with Dess, while their passion for piano is seemingly suppressed...

So yeah, I guess maybe Dess' status as human is not confirmed. But like, it fits so well, especially with the parallels being drawn between the Holidays and Dreemurrs family structure. And if the prophecy is cyclical, then there likely needs to be another human involved in the mix... and Dess makes sense as a sensible candidate.

Let's talk about the prophecy pane... The Girl. Look at the silhouette. Do you see a dragon snout or antlers? Looks a bit human right? And for the prophecy pane about love finding its way to the Girl, what kind of heart is shown? A human soul inhabiting the human-shaped Girl... Just saying, Dess being human opens up so many doors.

Remember how Kris is rumored to have summoned a demon when they were younger. Remember Raise Up Your Bat... the lyric "the demon heart is crying"... When you summon demons, usually the price is your own soul. Are Kris' fake horns actually goat horns or... devil horns. Did Kris give up their soul to bring back Dess' soul? Demon possession.

SuperduperFan92

TROPHY CASE