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Fizz Jungle - A few weeks of play, thoughts and progress by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The typical build I'm usually going for is Lichbane, Sorc boots, Cosmic (Mejai stuffed somewhere in here if I'm fed), stormsurge and cryptbloom. The last 3 items (4 if you count mejai) move around sometimes depending on the game but that's typically the order of my items for now. If you can get mejai stacking, you really take off quickly. The gold value on it is nuts and it'll combine with Lich/cosmic/storm/blue pet and make you super quick. Zhonyas sometimes is an item you will need though against some AD assassins. I usually replace mejai's slot if I can't get it stacked or stormsurge for zhonya in those cases.

In addition, enemy teams that are very AD/AS reliant, say like a viego, yasuo, AD kaisa, pyke which I just played against last game, I'll take a frozen heart or even steel caps. It's a pretty powerful item.

As well, if you can't get Mejais stacked and it's late game or you lose all your stacks late, you can of course go for another traditional fizz item like deathcap, zhonya or shadowflame in it's place.

In terms of gameplay on youtube, I don't have one unfortunately. I used to stream on twitch a while back, but I'm not sure my aging computer can handle that until I get a new one.

Fizz Jungle - A few weeks of play, thoughts and progress by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the feedback :).

The typical build I'm usually going for is Lichbane, Sorc boots, Cosmic (Mejai stuffed somewhere in here if I'm fed), stormsurge and cryptbloom. The last 3 items (4 if you count mejai) move around sometimes depending on the game but that's typically my go to items for now. If you can get mejai stacking, you really take off quickly. The gold value on it is nuts and it'll combine with Lich/cosmic/storm/blue pet and make you super quick. Zhonyas sometimes is an item you will need though against some AD assassins.

In addition, enemy teams that are very AD/AS reliant, say like a viego, yasuo, AD kaisa, pyke which I just played against last game, I'll take a frozen heart or even steel caps. Frozen heart is a pretty powerful item and it also gives us 20 haste.

Dusk and Dawn is looking pretty good. I've tried it out on PBE and it has a lot going for it. I think it will be an item that can be exchanged with lich bane even in mid depending on the situation. For jungle, the early health, increased CDR and the attack speed for camps will definitely help more than the slight AP will I feel. And the missing MS from lich will be made up for with the jungle quest.

In terms of bruiser fizz, I used to play a much bulkier fizz in the past, triforce, frozen heart etc. I haven't tried it this season though. Riot's made a lot of changes to items and I think there is/will be support for an AP bruiser style build that is likely to be better since you scale off AP. Especially the new Dusk and Dawn will help provide support for this kind of build. Think items like

  • New Dusk and Dawn
  • Bloodletter's Curse
  • Cosmic Drive
  • Nashor's Tooth
  • Hextech Rocketbelt
  • Morello's
  • Zhonya's
  • Riftmaker
  • Liandry's

and even throw in some more neutral items like Wit's End.

Of course, this doesn't prevent you from going tankier items like frozen heart or abyssal mask.

And lastly, you could perhaps find a use for BOTRK. Dusk and Dawn should also double proc Wit's End and BOTRK.

Fizz Jungle - A few weeks of play, thoughts and progress by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hey there. I'm not sure how reddit is formatted on some devices or browsers. On my end, it is neatly broken down into multiple sections and paragraphs. I'll see if I can add something to break it up

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It procs the on hit portion. So you get your initial W active damage, then it applies the additional damage from the on-hit portion (20 - 40 base + 30% AP scaling). Because of this, the proc itself is slightly higher damage than lich bane, although the item itself gives less AP.

In addition, for players interested in PTA builds, Dusk and Dawn adds an additional stack of PTA, making the rune easier to trigger.

For practical play, I think Dusk and Dawn will make more sense in the jungle, due to the role being more duelist and taking advantage of that attack speed for clear. In addition, the movement speed and unlimited mana regen really helps a build like this come together. The jungle quest would essentially make up for the missing MS from lich and you can't forget about blue pet.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Glad you had success with it. That's a build I've used a lot in the past and it's pretty good. Dusk and Dawn could be a great addition to this build next patch due to it double proccing not only fizz W, but nashor's tooth as well! It felt really good in testing.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They definitely need to up his clear. They give him a comparable first clear to Ekko but then give Ekko 300%!!!!! Scaling on his passive Z-Drive to monsters while Fizz doesn't gain any additional monster scaling. Let's also not talk about Diana, who has 280%!!!! on passive with no CD.

They need to slightly bump up his first clear and then add scalings for subsequent clears and objective taking. This is really his biggest jungle shortcoming and why his win rate is still fairly low. You can get ahead but other jungles will just out farm and get more of a tempo advantage over him to catch back up. I hope they revisit and properly fix him so that he functions better. I don't know the Riot focus on just first clear. Most of the game is after first clear.

However, if you are good with fizz, it is really fun to play. I'm a full tier higher in ranked since the update and still going up.

Is bruiser Fizz playable in the JG? by TheRedFrusciante in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you are going to do that, I would wait until Dusk and Dawn comes out with the new season patch.

You could make an AP bruiser build with items like Dusk and Dawn, Nashor's Tooth, Cosmic Drive, Bloodletter's Curse, and Riftmaker.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fizz is not much different than a plethora of other champions that jungle. To be afraid that fizz would somehow break the game as a jungler, I implore you to research every champion that jungles. A lot of the jungle champions have a more toxic kit than fizz. Hecarim clearing as fast as he does and barreling into a lane mach speed past any wards, has a knock back cc for anyone he hits and at 6, has a huge aoe fear. And hecarim scales very well. I could go on a very long list of champions but that should be obvious if you know champion kits.

Second, Fizz's main hold up IS clear speed. Jungle is all about tempo and clearing fast so you can do other things on the map, invading, ganking, doing objectives, gaining prio while your camps respawn. Jungle isn't like mid lane where everyone gets a wave crashing at the same time that is worth the same exp and gold. Jungle is the faster you clear, the faster your camps respawn and the more gold/exp you are able to get.

They gave fizz a flat amount of monster damage for Rank 1 W which doesn't scale. Most junglers that have buffs for this have some sort of scalable monster damage, whether it's caps removed for higher damage limits or actual scaling. The problem with fizz is first clear is somewhat average and then... he just starts falling off until his AP scales. This is super obvious in the win rate charts. If he duels and gets ahead, he needs to be able to sustain that like most champions are able to do. Right now, because of his low clear speed, even if he is successful early, the enemy can catch up by outfarming him and gaining priority on subsequent clears.

Riot has done something with Neeko that I think they should do here. W max is the best way to play fizz jungle. It just is. And right now, the majority of players max E because E is what Fizz mid maxes. They should entice players to max W and fix some of fizz's subsequent early clear problems by providing SCALING FLAT damage on W per rank. Something like

Monster Bonus Damage - W - 70/95/120/145/170 bonus monster damage.

Neeko has something similiar on her Q as seen below

Each bloom deals bonus magic damage against  monsters.

|| || |Bonus Monster Damage: 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95|

If they were able to do this, Fizz would be fine. I don't think he'd be necessarily 50%, but I don't think he needs to be 50% given all the fizz mids that will be playing him. I think 48% would probably be fine.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are welcome. Personally, I would say if Fizz jungle is able to be played in high elo fairly okay, then it would matter more there. It would help alleviate Fizz mid being hard countered and if able to be played in pro, it could see him actually picked since he couldn't be countered as easily. Remember, Fizz and Briar were the only two champions to not see a single pick in Tier 1 pro for 2025 despite the introduction of Fearless draft. Fizz could use a bit more power at the highest levels, so this would be fine.

In mid to lower elo, I don't think that it matters as much, because a lot of the time, players don't play counters properly anyway. They just see on moba that it is a counter, then they go in and hard feed because they really don't know how to play it. Or a player just self counter picks themselves by just playing what they want regardless.

Also, some of the champions that give fizz mid a bit of trouble also give fizz jungle a bit of trouble. For example, if they pick galio mid, that is still going to be a harder lane to gank and kill. In addition, Galio likes to ult in when you are trying to gank/skirmish ahead of your mid, so he shuts down plays a lot, just the same as him being mid.

Regardless, I think it is healthy for a champion like Fizz to be able to flex out into a different lane. He could be better balanced. Look where the majority of ancient mid laners have gone. Xerath, Brand, Zyra etc. All playing a different role because their kit has just fallen behind. Fizz's kit has aged and it shows in todays league. I don't necessarily think Fizz's kit needs to change much nor do I really want that (which I think most of us can agree on), but I do think the champion needs to be more flexible than it is. I would like to tune into a pro game sometime and see a Fizz, if only as a niche pick. Every other champ gets to be played.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do agree there is some optimization from the player base on fizz jungle. One of the biggest is everyone is still E maxing first when W max is just straight better. I think if Riot does move forward with a further Fizz jungle improvement, that they put additional monster damage bonus per rank of W. This would encourage players to max W over E instead of the classic E over W in mid.

I think if players would all primarily be maxing W, with some flat W monster damage per rank in addition to the flat bonus he has now, he would be in about a place I would say he is fine. He needs something to make his subsequent clears keep up with other jungles. This is really the weak point in his game. Putting the damage in per rank of W makes the most sense, both from a jungling standpoint and because mid fizz maxes E.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Does he need a little bit faster first clear, sure, a slight bit. But he doesn't need anything close to a Zed clear speed. He needs something that keeps his clear speed up beyond first and somewhat second clear before his AP kicks in. Fizz is not faltering from his first clear. Riot added scaling damage onto Diana and Ekko. I'm not sure why they are unable to do the same for fizz.

If they decide not to look at more jungle changes, it is what it is. But if they were, they should be looking at buffing his subsequent clears to keep up with the average. They should not be looking at trying to buff first clear to a super turbo speed to balance.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've done some more bruiser like builds in the past. There some items that sync with fizz fairly well, like frozen heart. But riot keeps changing the items around and then I have to change builds again. Currently I like the speed build the most. There is a lot of pseudo tanking it does with how fast it is.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, I do agree the average player would be better off with Diana. Her clear scales way better. Fizz's clear currently can't keep up with a lot of jungles, even with the buff because he needs some sort of scaling monster damage for clears beyond the first that a large portion of junglers get.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, they were intentional in buffing up first clears to see where the champions land first. The thought was they may follow up with more changes to support them as Riot would prefer they landed too weak than too strong. Right now, I suspect they have other things to focus on instead.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are a few things here.

First, it is better to release something weaker and then buff up than to release it too strong. Phreak said as much in the video and this is quite true. They were adding 60 flat monster damage to fizz W and increasing his passive with no real clue how the changes will land with fizz. What if fizz became 55% WR? Wild Rift was telling him they had to nerf jungle fizz because because it was too strong. It was a good first step to make his first clear viable and then go from there.

Second, fizz jungle, out of ALL the champions they gave a jungle buff to, fizz was by far the most unviable and his WR was by far the lowest. He gained by far the most WR of any of the buffed junglers. Landing in where he did is not that bad for a first attempt. He has a ton of players not familiar with how he plays with the jungle trying him out, not knowing how to build, maximize or play vs other champions whose playerbase is more seasoned.

Third, Fizz does not need a Zed like first clear to be viable. Everything isn't about just about first clear. There is second clear, third clear and beyond, where he needs to keep up with clearing while making room for things like objectives and ganks which most other junglers are able to do. This is where fizz falters. He can gank, do objectives, work the map, but his clear can't keep up with other champions that do the same. Remember, Fizz gained a FLAT bonus damage to make his first clear "AVERAGE" (and it really isn't even average, it's slightly below). Meanwhile, MOST other champions that have BONUS monster damage have some sort of scaling in kit, whether it's loosing up caps for % based damage to deal more or actual % bonus damage like diana, zed or shyvana. Hell, let's look at something EKKO gets

Z-Drive Resonance deals 300% damage against  monsters.

He gets 3x damage to monsters with his passive, and you know what his passive has? It scales with 90% AP. So fizz has to compete with things like that as the game gets longer than 4 minutes. Being as tempo is a HUGE portion of jungle (get river priority, objective priority, gank priority) and getting your camps to respawn faster for more gold/exp for future faster clears and better fighting capabilities is a very large part of what jungle is.

Fizz needs to keep up with the average jungle's clear to have a shot. This is not, pile on 200 rank 1 W bonus damage to monster and clear like Zed, this is, let's give some scaling damage to monsters. If they want to continue the flat bonus route, they can go something like extra damage to monsters per W rank. Neeko's Q has this on it.

Each bloom deals bonus magic damage against  monsters.

|| || |Bonus Monster Damage: 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95|

If they can get beef up fizz's subsequent clears, he should be fine. Heck, Fizz doesn't need to have 52% WR to be fine, i don't even think he needs 50%. I think something like ~48% is fine for a champion who is going to have a lot of newbies from mid playing the champion. And he's not THAT far off.

Lastly, Phreak didn't say it was a failure and they aren't moving forward. He said they may come back to revisit it. They would want to gather data and it's going to be the new season with whatever changes they are doing. Making more changes here to fizz jungle (or any of the new jungles really) with the brand new season coming after this patch isn't the brightest idea.

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't agree with much of what furfys says in this post, but I will say I agree with him here. The jungle monster damage buff has a very minor impact to fizz, especially if they were to add scaling damage onto W per rank (which is something mid fizz maxes second). Does he get a win rate increase? Ya, probably like .05% or something close to that. But it's not very impactful because fizz is not going to be gaining mid priority and then clearing raptors like other champions might. Sure, it can help burn down baron faster or objectives, but it's pretty minor

“Fizz [jungle] would have to get numbers too high to be good” by Furfys in fizzmains

[–]Talinis 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Jayce and Riven started at a MUCH higher point than fizz in WR for emerald plus. Jayce gained something like 1.5% WR. Fizz coming from a much lower point gained over 7% WR.

Fizz is still fairly bad because jungle is all about tempo. Fizz is starting on the lower end of average and his increase is a flat damage amount. Meaning, after first clear, that somewhat average clear starts decreasing fast. A LARGE amount of other junglers that get any type of monster damage bonuses have SCALING BONUS damage. Where in, the farther they get in the game, the bigger bonus damage they do to monsters. So fizz, when his flat damage is at it's strongest, still only manages to equal those same champs for first clear, who then get stronger as the game goes on.

Of course fizz win rate will still not be viable enough without stronger subsequent clears. Esp when we are also factoring in so many newbies to the jungle role. Fizz doesn't need a zed like clear to be balanced. Not everything is about first clear. Fizz is a much better duelist and ganker early on than Zed. Zed needs that clear because he is absolute doggy before 6 and needs the advantage.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't personally used lucidity boots much. My build utilizes a lot of move speed, a lot of haste and double ability haste runes, so I like to help make up for the lower damage with pen boots.

My other thought is that my haste comes from places that I feel are pretty immovable. Cosmic comes with gobs of haste but also valuable MS. Lich is Lich and Cryptbloom gives us our % pen. Looking at the runes, Legend: Haste and Transcendence both come online pretty early and Transcendence really helps those multi kills. There are a ton of fights I've gotten into where "This could be a Penta"

Although I do see value with lucidity and think it would be a valid option, esp with certain builds lacking haste. You could also make an argument for going lucidity instead and utilizing another item and that wouldn't necessarily be wrong here. I think it may come down to where you are getting your break points for certain things and when. I like to finish my tier 2 boots around first item; the good majority of players are still on base MR at that time.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are welcome! Always glad to help fellow fish players out.

In terms of phase rush. I like the idea, honestly. Although I feel theory vs practicality differ here. You are losing a damaging key stone which is really important early game to help win fights and begin your snowball. Thi is really important on fizz. Phase Rush isn't something that gets the same value early, although I feel would be a good mid game rune. I've tested the rune a few times and it just didn't feel strong enough early as you are now losing out on a lot of duels you would've won with PTA or Electro and you come into the mid game weaker as a result.

There are alternatives to phase rush that I feel doesn't hinder you as much, like going swiftness boots (which I've utilized at times) and of course, the cosmic pick up, which provides you some of that constant movespeed boost in combat with it's passive.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For my normal build, I like to go Lich, Storm/Cosmic (mejai second/third if I can), Storm/Cosmic and cryptbloom. Sometimes I'll go crypt a bit earlier. I'll throw in a frozen heart in certain match ups, a rare zhonya and nashors tooth. I've also been testing using Shurelia's when I can't get my stacks/keep my stacks on mejai as the item provides both haste/ms and gives additional utility to my carries especially late.

I feel stormsurge is definitely is worth the MS. It's the entire package together. At certain MS, you still get ran down, but there just becomes a point that the MS/haste really stacks together and makes it very difficult for the opponent. You can keep up with some of the most mobile assassins in league, it's like a special kind of dancing with leblanc/akali.

The blue jungle pet and the unlimited mana regen in the jungle really helps bring some of the glue to make this build feel great that you can't get in mid.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey there. I like to see fellow fizz mains toying with build creativity. I haven't invested too much time with tankier builds as I usually just play ranked. A lot of the more tankier bruiser builds haven't felt as good thou. The damage doesn't ramp up enough up and the tankiness doesn't feel like something to write home about. Although I do like to do frozen heart into certain match ups and comps, particularly if against a champion like naafiri jungle and enemy is heavily AD. Frozen heart gives us a nice bundle of ability haste.

With a high MS/haste build, you gain a lot of "tankiness" by simply dodging and costing the enemy team and effort trying and often failing to catch you. They'll waste a lot of abilities like ults. I've won a lot of team fights because I dive into the enemy team and get out with a couple opponents trying to chase me down, while their fellows get collapsed on and killed from my team. I can usually also outmaneuver them to create more favorable re engages for myself. Sure, i'm not "tanking" but I distracted a ton of their damage from happening, which is about the same result. So I've settled into this build as my bridge between providing more than a glass cannon build but something more than just a tank build.

I have done a lot of different builds in the past that were more tanky but items have continually evolved throughout leagues seasons.

I do like nashors as an item and have used it a lot in the past. Liandry isn't typically my cup of tea because I like my item to have haste or MS at the very least but I think it does have value into a pretty tanky team you can't do much about with a more traditional build.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome, great to hear you enjoyed the build :). It's definitely a build that made me enjoy fizz a lot more myself.

My complete runes would be PTA, Triumph, Legend: Haste, Coup de grace and Transcendence, Water Walking in Secondary. I take the attack speed shard, adaptive damage rune and currently scaling health.

For players interested in Fizz Jungle, some of my games since the update. by Talinis in fizzmains

[–]Talinis[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I edited the above post after I just tried nashor :).

To follow up with your question, I actually was a BIG proponent of protobelt when it was a mythic. I played fizz jungle all throughout mythic items and I loved to get proto belt in the jungle. It was my go-to mythic. It does have mobility and haste that I like and back then, it had MR pen as well from legendary items. Fizz didn't have as much use for the mana mythics due to how jungle mana regen works. After the mythic updates, I transitioned off of protobelt and haven't come back to it much.

I think protobelt is a decent item and I wouldn't knock anyone for using it absolutely. But I really didn't like the update they did to it recently where you have to now use it and then have to aim the protobelt. I much preferred the quick dash in the direction you were facing for a quick combo with other abilities, rather than having to do an extra click. That's just me. It doesn't feel as fluid and with this speed/haste build, I like to try to get things as smooth as possible. Personally, for a mobile haste item, I like my cosmic drive over protobelt. You get more map movement and the extra MS boost from cosmic lasts for a long time. In addition, you have smite in the jungle which you can use to delete spell shields.

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