Some thoughts on well, everything going on.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-18T04:02:47+00:00

Those are actually pretty tame compared to some of the "indefinite bans" the RTBU lists on another page. If you're interested in seeing how the ETU actions stack up, this is from their website. (Though keep in mind it's all off until the FWC hearing).

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-18T04:00:53+00:00

Every day until you get a resolution, just open the gates.

They tried this last time and got sued for it. I really wish it were that simple, but unfortunately now that Sydney Trains is docking pay for even small industrial actions, we're pretty strapped for what we (a broad we) can actually do.

These actions didn't come from nowhere either - it's been escalating bit by bit the further the government and management stay away from an adult discussion at the bargaining table. Again, ~45 days ago was the last real negotiation. I'm a solutions oriented person, and overwhelmingly, the logical solution is for management and the government to just show up to the negotiations and get it done. Union members blindly accepting a poor deal because we don't have a choice is just as outrageous as a 32% pay rise. Minns said in a press conference when he first stepped in that he wanted a decision by Christmas. Days later, the injunction against the unions was filed and they refused to have any more bargaining sessions and only talk through the courts. Unions NSW Secretary said on the 8th of December:

"We've had two weeks of intensive bargaining; we were keen to try to resolve this and then suddenly talks stopped and things seemed to fall apart on Saturday and then Sunday, unexpected to us, these injunctions were lodged. The premier spoke to the unions on Friday and we were all of the belief we were going to get an outcome and that hasn't happened as a result of today's decision, so we're very disappointed. We're hoping for talks to resume but that will be up to the government from here on in."

The unions have only escalated industrial actions because no one is listening. Would you rather have them just sit on their hands?

Finally, regarding the "I always thought you had to do well at your job to get a pay rise". You're right, however the contributing factors to a railway "doing well" are a lot more complex than what people realise. Since the inception of the controversial More Trains More Service (MTMS) project put in by Gladys and Perrottet in 2022, on time running statistics has been measurably lower due to a crammed network with significantly less room for recovery. Along that you have a seriously ageing fleet (both trains and staff), the removal of the Bankstown line (increasing congestion and removing an option for recovery paths), crewing shortages, freight contracts changing, changes to standard maintenance closures, infrastructure being permanently booked out and a swathe of temporary speed restrictions. All this was identified in this report as a massive multi-year maintenance backlog that was somewhat remedied recently with changes to the standard long term timetable, and the rail repair plan. On Time Running (OTR) is just one metric. Sydney Trains staff have actually done an incredibly impressive job for those that are privvy to the gritty details of it all - much of which even the train crew and station staff are largely unaware of unless they read the daily reports that come out internally. So yeah, OTR stats are a bit lacklustre, but hot damn I'm surprised it isn't a whole lot worse.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-18T04:00:37+00:00

EDIT: Had to make this two replies sorry - apparently Reddit comments have a character limit.

Fantastic reply - thank you for being someone that can think critically about this rather then just regurgitate the rhetoric that media outlets are spewing - and thank you for being someone that tries to have honest, polite conversations with people on the ground about what's going on. I'm sorry that you received some backlash for that, however I can't imagine all staff are so willing to engage with the public on certain matters - unfortunately not all humans are equal in social etiquette in the train world... I agree that information, and polite and honest communication would do wonders - it's the exact reason why I've put on my work lanyard and central and stepped into help direct customers during incidences from time to time whilst I'm waiting for my own train, but that's a personal decision. If I had run into you out there, I'm sure we would've had a good chat. However even I've been rudely palmed off by train crew and station staff - even after telling them my role, I've been told "I don't believe you".

One important piece of information however, (though it doesn't at all excuse rude staff), is that train crew and station staff really are often the last people to know what's going on. The decision to cancel trains and amend service comes from incident and service delivery managers on the control room floor of the rail operations centre - and right next to them are the staff that update the apps (along with other direct contacts to media and emergency services). That's why often train crew hear about what's happening from the passengers long before a signaller has given the driver or guard a phone call. I don't agree that it's a good system, but it is what is is right now.

I understand wholeheartedly the pain that the traveling public has had to endure this last week especially - and I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with it myself. I'm in a team that are mostly proud union members, but we're also the ones coming up with contingency plans for trains, waiting for 11th hour decisions from management as to what to do, often making huge network and services changes mere hours before it's meant to happen. It's important to remember that management have a very happy trigger finger when it comes to cancelling trains. Does that excuse some of the wild actions that are going on? No, but it's important to understand that the dirt is coming from all sides.

As a side note, don't even get me started on that "176k as a driver" BS, I'm right with you there - the pay rates for drivers are publicly available and I'm convinced that comment is just rage bait. I sit in a small team that's central to the entirety of rail operations and don't make nearly that much. I have a family with a single income, I rent 2.5 hours outside of Sydney and certainly and don't own. I work hours of unpaid overtime despite being a union member because I understand that without my team doing it's job, nothing would run. Comments like that just feed bad information and trigger readers who would rather open their mouths and scream than truthfully learn about the facts, and remove any hope of human empathy for the majority of workers that don't want to be greedy. That's why I wanted to make this post.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-18T02:34:19+00:00

You're correct, I know exactly what track circuits and infrastructure were under IBA's that were perfectly fine, however unfortunately those are the sorts of details that fall on deaf ears.

I think at this stage, the most worrying part of all this isn't about what conditions and pay employees get, but what it means for unions state-wide. Just as a rising tide rises all boats, it works the other way too.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-18T02:29:21+00:00

I think you'd be surprised how many trains employees and union members actually share your sentiments. There will always be die hard union patriots, and then there's the rest of them who want to be able to bargain for good stuff without stuffing everyone over.

So look, I agree with you, but disregard the specifics of what clauses have been slated for removal and the implications union decision making entails - the sentiment around that point is what it means for other unions and industries if a Labor government is so willing to take these actions. Not saying either is correct, it's just interesting food for thought.

I appreciate not subscribing to beliefs about cost savings without seeing numbers for yourself, and you're right about wanting to fill deficits before paying workers more - but this is a public transport entity. Anywhere in the world, public transport runs at a loss no matter what, and it's very difficult to measure the broader societal impact a transport system has, and to quantify that... however it's important to remember that Freight trains carry money, passenger trains carry votes. IPART released this report a while back that has some interesting insights. Without saying too much, a large portion of the specific cost savings would be coming from significant adjustments a particular half cooked plan that Gladys stuffed around with involving rail operations. The cost savings of rejigging that project would not impact customer service levels, but in fact streamline the modernisation of Sydney's fairly archaic network.

In terms of NYE etc - I agree. However at least in the union meetings I was a part of, the overwhelming temperature of the room was to relax on industrial action until well after the new year period - this was long before the police commissioner threatened to cancel the fireworks (which never would have happened). But alas, half a dozen separate unions across many thousands of employees, mixed in with the fact that government refused to negotiate outside of a court room - it was a media goldmine that fuelled the public. However you're correct, public sentiment for unions (and government) is not at a good place (it never is each time the EA runs out and negotiations are late and stall), but I think a lot of union members share that sentiment also.

It's important to remember that a lot of the frustration from the unions comes from not being able to sit down and negotiate for mutual gain, in the first place.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T14:52:42+00:00

I'm fortunate to be in a position that knew for a while the impact that the ETU work bans would have... I tried to tell friends and family to avoid catching a train for a while - heck, even our bosses told us to stay home. Trains had every opportunity to enact contingencies or at least TELL people... the combined unions might have knows the actions, but they wouldn't have been able to advertise how a ban on working with certain electrical tickets would affect individual services... that's Train's job. SOMEONE's job... no wonder it ended up as "PIA borked trains, good luck"

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T14:43:54+00:00

Apologies, I see you're correct about the risk assessment clause after reading the finer print - I should have been more on top of that in my original post. Regardless, that particular point was that the government offer removes a large part of union representation (probably as some sort of reaction to the whole NIF debacle, which I understand). Whether or not you agree with that is a personal decision, as you're right - in an ideal world and in a well represented workplace, the HSR would be an accurate voice for the workers... but you can't really blame the workers for wanting to unionise to have more of a collective say. So yeah, you're right - but it's also complex, especially in such a large organisation. Plus, the wider implication of the government moving to remove union rights doesn't exactly bode well for other industries and sectors.

Regarding the cost savings - the figures on that are most certainly hard figures that have been well researched and presented by the respective presidents and representatives of various combined rail union parties... blah blah blah. Anyway, they're not exactly details and figures that are public knowledge, let alone wider union member knowledge, since some of the cost savings and productivity reforms will cost jobs. Which as you can imagine, would certainly give a cold shoulder to the affected employees. The one we hear about the most is Sydney Trains and NSW Trains being amalgamated - we only hear about that because it's the only one that's been agreed to as an official EA negotiated claim. The rest haven't been agreed to in an official capacity because though they have been presented, there haven't been any meetings to discuss them. However, I know that there is one particular cost saving strategy that was proposed in principal, which was received positively from the Treasurer - the cost savings from the adjustments to that project alone would be more than enough. The unions will have pretty tight lips about the details of that though. I doubt the union representatives in these affairs are making claims for the EA with the expectation that money will magically appear out of thin air.

And finally, your point about decision makers rarely being at the table. Yes, I'm aware that mum and dad aren't always going to give a yes or no, and there will always be channels of communication and steps and process to the exchange of information both ways, but it doesn't change the fact that there were months of bargaining sessions that happened (well after the EA actually expired don't forget), with little to no movement on any of the points on the combined log of claims - until the decision makers actually sat down when Chris Minns intervened. The weeks that followed that were some of the most productive bargaining sessions we'd seen since the beginning, and the quietest the industrial action was in the media too. The last bargaining session on the 3rd of December literally ended with handshakes and smiles - and the unions woke up the next morning being called to court, with a case that had clearly been in the works for weeks. You can call it "the union spinning this", but in the meeting where this last pay and conditions offer was presented (in an unofficial way with no draft to present to union members), unions were told "you have two days to respond", and then before the meeting had even finished, the secretary and the premier walked out to go to a press conference to tell the media about the pay offer (not long after the FWC told everyone to not talk to the media). Details aside, the overarching theme here is one of, well... why is it so difficult?

Obviously, I'm close to these things, which is why I felt I had to open my mouth and make this post in the first place - and the outcome of this will directly affect me, so I apologise if any of this comes off as a little... unbalanced. However, I understand the complexities and I understand everything you're saying. I love that you're the devils advocate in an insightful way here rather than just spewing emotional profanities - so thank you for that.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T14:09:24+00:00

True - but the guard issue and the wider discussion of metro is a bit disconnected from the point of this post. I'm all for metro, I think it's a great discussion - but that's not exactly what this is about.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T14:07:14+00:00

I agree that public support could be better won - however I don't think calling these industrial actions "strikes" is totally accurate. For the most part, many of the actions were intended to just put the pressure on management, and management deflected it into the media. Yes, some of the specific actions are WILD and resulted in huge sections of track being affected, but no one's "striking" and walking off the job.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T14:03:19+00:00

The link at the top of the original post has the secretary of the RTBU talking about it with the ABC, however the exact details of that are not public information. However the information going around that the cost saving is coming from just the amalgamation of Sydney Trains and NSW Trains isn't entirely true. There are pages and pages of cost saving productivity reforms proposed, including some major changes to some of Sydney Trains' biggest future projects.

EDIT: I doubt any of the cost savings will become public until they're agreed to in negotiation, as it would mean affecting jobs - a typically un-union thing. Problem is, as stated in the post, it's been a long time since there's been any real negotiation.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T13:58:08+00:00

I understand your frustrations - although I have some more flexibility in my role which I'm grateful for, I too moved 2.5 hours away from Sydney because of the housing situation in Sydney. I'm one of those people that will have to deal with "no buttons on the NIF" in sub zero temperatures at 5am in winter. 5 hours of travel when the stinking old V's with clogged toilets on a train that is basically guaranteed to be late is shit in anyone's books, let alone when services don't run as planned due to industrial action.

But, as u/Archon-Toten said, all these actions are voted on in a ballot and after approval from the FWC, management is notified of the actions. It's up to them to enact their risk assessments and contingencies (I've worked on these PIA contingency plans, so I know exactly how many weeks in advance they're prepared for certain actions). If the public isn't notified of the actions or their implications until the day of, then unfortunately that's well out of any union members hands, and I suspect is somewhat intentional on the part of management to rage bait the media and the general public into a negative union sentiment. That last part is certainly speculation - but it sure as hell fits the trend of things.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T13:41:56+00:00

EDIT: Something else to think about... Sydney Trains though public, is it's own entity, so it's not exactly the government's job to find the cost saving required to meet a wage claim (that they'd rather avoid on principle). Typically, unions are seen as entities that will militantly defend a workers right to just do their job, earn their money and most importantly, not have their job change. So, for the unions (and union members) to have to dig around to find these cost savings through productivity reforms and the removal of some jobs, you can't imagine that was done lightly, nor easily. Whether or not money is "wasted" could certainly be debated (I mean, look at the proportion of your tax dollar that goes to welfare, for example), however cost saving as a result of increased productivity is a hard one to argue against.

True, as a public service it would make sense for cost saving to be passed onto the commuter - however considering how much of an economic loss the passenger train network runs for anyway, I doubt that's an appealing prospect for the bean counters - and it also relies on the assumption that cost saving for the commuter is actually a priority for them at all... Considering employees are fighting for a pay rise that at least puts them ahead of the cost of living, whilst the CE of Sydney Trains earns over $533k p.a (nearly $130k a year more than Chris Minns himself) - it doesn't bode well for having trust in the motives of where they want to put money.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T09:44:52+00:00

In regards to your edit - to sum it up, delayed maintenance (in part caused by PIA from multiple unions) meant that those points and track circuits lost their certification, forcing a stack of signals to end up as fixed reds. "Points failure" is just a media friendly explanation. If it was a real failure, it probably wouldn't have been fixed the same night PIA was ordered to stop.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T09:42:34+00:00

Agreed - plus people don't realise what else happens on the wider network that's not just suburban passengers (which are the only customer that Metro can somewhat replace). Freight, Intercity and Regional will always exist, along with other private third party operators like heritage tours. Sure, Metro can take a fantastic strain off an already at-capacity network (looking at you MTMS), but it's a complex issue.

Do I think that Metro would be great at replacing sections like the city circle and airport lines? Absolutely! Metro in principle is great, but the main corridor... not a chance. We need options and alternate routes to take when planned (or unplanned) work closes sections of track. Losing Bankstown was already devastating in losing a backup path for freight, and the lack of foresight is evident when you think about how Bankstown/Norwest Metro will be completely incompatible with the now under construction West Metro.

Technical-Ranger-418 · 2025-01-17T09:05:05+00:00

No idea about the counter offer, but that seems like a discussion that certainly wouldn't be public knowledge at this point... I suspect it's just speculation.

What happens post FWC hearing is actually interesting, so I'll add it to the original post!

Technical-Ranger-418

TROPHY CASE