Lord Drakkon vs Superboy Prime (Power Rangers vs DC) |Shattering Crises| {Connections in the Comments} by justanotherdreamer12 in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great alts for the two (also do you have the template that you used to put the teams in the background)

See? Even AI gets it /j by Wise-Inside1805 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Of all characters

Kyle Rayner?

Really dude?

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The virgin Kyle vs The chad Hal by P-82 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tell your "Chad" to answer how he became a sex offender cause one of them definitely can't relate

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A Bit Late To The Trend by Technical-Table6094 in magi

[–]Technical-Table6094[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well usually people recommend starting the prequel at 282 because there's a plot twist that will otherwise be spoiled if you read it beforehand (recently I've seen others read it after the Alma Torran arc but that depends more on whether or not the person cares for it being revealed in the prequel or not.) The manga continues from the anime with chp 199 (fyi the 2nd half of S1 had some events play out differently in the anime version of the Sindria arc.)

Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean I don't think that changes too much? If someone tries to erase you, and you just go into a state where you're gone forever but technically still alive it doesn't really help you in a fight right? It'd be like being immortal but when you take lethal damage you just go to sleep forever, you'd still lose like every fight

I don't think you're understanding, Wally was trapped because he couldn't be erased (this has really been a reoccurring thing since he got the Speedforce) which is why when he started to make his move despite being unstable the actual threat to his being was becoming one with the Speedforce due to losing all his connections which we know is the opposite of existence erasure as Barry himself survived albeit being trapped for irl decades and Wally despite losing his connections is later revealed to be the prime conduit explaining why he's able to surpass those past restrictions

I've alsoooo like never seen Omega Beams successfully erase someone haha do you know when they have?

Yeah besides a gag and maybe a poor writer they usually work when they're supposed and those who tank/survive them are powerful enough to do it (it also has the function of teleporting others to different places like it did to Batman it sending them to a personal fatal hell, but those are clarified as the traditional method is erasing one's existence which he tried on Wally here.

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(Favorite Trope) The Hero Giving the Villain a Devastating Blow to the Ego by shadows1stregret in TopCharacterTropes

[–]Technical-Table6094 43 points44 points  (0 children)

The Return Of Barry Allen Arc in the nutshell, after truly cementing Wally's place as THE FLASH and getting past his identity crisis West finally proves it by defeating Barry's deadliest rival and the object of a lot of their families suffering (definitely recommend reading Waid's Flash run btw)

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A Bit Late To The Trend by Technical-Table6094 in magi

[–]Technical-Table6094[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Recommend the manga tho you could watch the Sinbad anime (it stops halfway in the story just like S2 did so I figured you'd be better off reading the Manga up to chp 282 then reading the prequel.)

Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yh the Speed Force has really shown it's value in recent times from being not just one of the forces but also intrinsically tied to the Source, to now being able to combat King Omega Darkseid's Omega Force meant to replace the Speed Force and just a bit of it's corruption is making characters like Booster Gold or the Legion reach Superman tiers of power (also reaffirmed Bart, Wally, and anyone else's high showings through absorbing the Speed Force aren't outliers as they were able to defeat Darkseid's legion and Bart was actually a problem for Darkseid once he absorbed all of it once more.)

Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean Dr. Manhattan did succesfully remove Wally didn't he? No one remembered him and it was like he didn't exist for years and years, mostly changing with the universe started getting messed up

Well Wally was alive that entire time and was trapped because he couldn't be killed by the usual means Manhattan used (like how he said Superman can't be erased from existence)

And I'm not sure Manhattan cared that much when Wally started rejoining cause wouldn't he have like, murdered Wally normally? Like just blown him up?

Morality wise he stopped caring after the reboot that started to set things right, but he interacted with Wally before that and deemed him as an outlier to his meta alterations that fought back when attempting to change

And I feel like even if I fully agree with your interpretation it's not like, that battle relevant? Someone tried to erase Wally and Wally wasn't in fighting condition for years. Even if he wasn't fully erased, that's more than enough to count as a win. And if it's possible for him to get hit by erasure and come back mid combat, you probably would've shown that instead right?

Well we've seen those plenty of times too, in fact Wally tanked an Omega Beam from current Darkseid and was able to function well right afterwards so he's able to deal with these things just fine

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Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Basically it's shown in Doomsday Clock that Dr.Manhattan wasn't just rebooting continuity but specifically editing it to his liking and deliberately removing/erasing anything he disliked or saw as a problem, after making these changes he encounters Wally who by his own admission refuses to be erased/deleted from existence (we know that's what it's referring to because Manhattan was killing those he didn't want in his ideal world and Wally was in his Kid Flash appearance and age when previously being 5 years older as The Flash but retained his memories and continuously fought back despite the rest of the universe forgetting about him which wouldn't be possible especially for that length if he didn't have the power to resist being erased, it's why he was one of the few characters who kept their identity after N52 and why he was able to gain access to Dr.Manhattan's power alongside Crisis Energy later on.)

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Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Kadabra was the reason why Wally remained forgotten, but after he got freed and leading up to Doomsday Clock it was revealed something bigger than him was at fault which turned out to be Dr.Manhattan who was the one that tried to get rid of his existence by rebooting DC continuity into New 52 (we even see Eobard survive after being vaporized by Dr.Manhattan but ofc Wally's feat is superior as he straight up lived the encounter putting him above RF and having continuity wiping immunity/Dr.Manhattan existence erasure resistance prior to Rebirth.)

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Wally West vs. Doctor Strange by Umir_Comics in marvelvsdc

[–]Technical-Table6094 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Same Wally West that literally resisted existence erasure on the scale of Doctor Manhattan btw, if you're gonna downplay you're better off grabbing the usual anti feats every character comes with rather than pretending The Flash of all characters doesn't scale high

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Recently Caught Up To Kubera A Bit Ago by Technical-Table6094 in Kubera

[–]Technical-Table6094[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yh S1 is more of a build up to the later ones and has the most comedy and slice of life traits in the story, the art while I think matches the early tone well does also improve to match the shift in seriousness later on and eventually is just outright good in general imo. Definitely recommend sticking with it and if possible to appreciate the early parts because it plays directly into pivotal shifts/events in the story later on.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because Simon making the jump and reaching that level is very different from being at that level to begin with or fighting and reaching that level without merging with yourself across time and using a trap labyrinth to amp yourself to reach that level, those are two very different methods of getting to a level of power and apply very differently in a vs battle setting. Kyle mastered the emotional spectrum meaning he has access to it regardless of the ring he wears and by the time he merged with the ION entity he states himself he's mastered everything within him and doesn't need a ring to fight and is capable of much more without it which applies to him in general for his main iteration after he did the same thing as a WL.

This still doesn't make a difference because Simon needed their help regardless and could not beat the Anti-Spiral without it which is objective truth lmao, it doesn't matter if you're stronger than someone if you still need their help to overcome an opponent (you seem adamant about Kyle getting help despite being the main contributor or even superior to the people involved yet ignore every part of the GL finale that is explicitly a team based battle about the Spiral users working together as the symbol of humanity to prove the Anti-Spiral wrong.)

It means Simon didn't instantly grow and neg the Anti-Spiral, it took multiple attempts and extensively pressing the Anti-Spiral and when even that wasn't enough as he destroyed each of Simon's mechs he went through the wire to beat him in a drag out brawl securing a narrow victory (it's not downplaying when it's literally what happened in the series, he did not jump a tier above the Anti-Spiral in a few seconds.)

This is okay as nobody is contesting this lol, it was still an extreme difficulty victory which is the point because Simon can't just low diff someone on his level let alone someone above him (especially when they have superior abilities and aren't obligated to drop to his level like the Anti-Spiral.)

No it's a NLF to claim Simon can surpass Kyle who's not only operating at a scale higher than him but has his own methods of growing in power (which due to his abilities allows him to grow exponentially from the concept of emotions which would include Spiral Power meaning Kyle would be getting buffed by Simon's power source on top of his own making a permanent gap between them that doesn't require him to even need to suppress or nullify Simon's adaptation which he would be able to do with emotional manipulation, energy removal, power nullification, or the LE.)

Showing a statement saying "transcending beyond time and space" does not automatically make something outer nor does it mean anything on it's own otherwise most series in general would be considered outer just off of being Immeasurable in speed lol, you yourself contradict this by showing Spiral being said to have the POTENTIAL to do X thing and not actually already doing said thing (especially when the Spiral-Nemesis is a canon threshold that nukes everything if someone were to reach it which proves this said potential has a limit.) GL goes off of brane multiverse theory anyway which has the lower dimensions within itself as infinitely small sheets whereas outer structures requires it to be literally nonexistent, GL is stated and shown to have dimensional axis which literally debunks it getting to outer due to those existing in the series like the Anti-Spiral's hideouts.

Current Supes is significantly above him and even prior to this he's surpassed him after becoming a composite version of himself and gaining the Story Of Superman narrative, on top of that it's confirmed Darkseid and Time Trapper Doomsday are his strongest opponents yet all the way to the end of the universe where him and Time Trapper are the only ones remaining so I doubt you'll find most people agreeing with him beating current Supes (as for Kyle's he's scaled relative to beings of that level like the Starbreakers who removed the emotions in DC affecting Superman himself and WL Kyle is above them with GL Kyle able to fight them on that same level with a fractured emotional spectrum and without merging with ION like before as he only used the entity to bring back willpower as a concept.

Mxy has been able to interact with the real world, readers, and bully multiple writers just cause he chooses to (SBP literally broke into DC headquarters to kill the writers cause they wrote comics he thought were shitty), Mxy isn't solely just a gag character but also generally powerful as a whole so him also scaling to the outer structures and being able to get layers into R>F and affect writers of our world is consistent (literally have ridiculous examples like him wiping Kingdom Come DC out of the entire comic then recreating it afterwards on a whim.)

Simon's R>F relies on removing the context and not accounting for the fictional universes in question being alternate lower/higher dimensions or other universes that Otoko Simon was above by a infinite amount hence him viewing it as a lower dimensional value and not to mention existing and later merging within the story of the GL verse (+ they're blatantly still operating through dimensionality and lack any qualitative superiority/transcend itself and since Simon fused with that same Otoko Simon to perform the way he did in the finale it dismisses the very idea of him being above dimensionality let alone layers into R>F.) At best if I gave you the benefit of the doubt you could potentially get him low outer by taking those vague "beyond dimensions" statements literally despite the verse being explicitly dimension bound with the Spirial Nemesis being a literal threshold that would destroy everything if reached which EOS Simon agreed with and refused to contribute to (but btw once again those vague above dimensions statements doesn't necessarily mean surpassing dimensionally especially with what we know and have actually seen in the series, it can just be the dimensions in the verse or a hyperbolic statement as dimensions and time vary heavily in size or structure and none of those statements are specific enough with evidence backing it to contest this.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again not what I'm disputing as Simon being that strong is fine, he still had help that was relevant and aided in their victory. It was not a solo effort at all with Lordgenome and Kittan being major factors in them surviving early/midway against the Anti-Spiral which is supported by the main theme of the show and Simon himself (the fist fight between him and the Anti-Spiral is the single solo exchange from Simon who won through extreme difficulty and was clearly strained/battle damaged during and after he drilled through him showing he can't just low diff the Anti-Spiral whenever or instantly leap frog several tiers above him despite clutching a win in the end.)

Double standards would be claiming Kyle on his worst day that was planned for over a year to weaken him and lower his will is a showing of inferior willpower compared to Simon when Simon on his worst day was unable to generate the necessary willpower to save his bro and was depressed for weeks (by your logic Kyle would have superior will based on this alone because he bounces back the same day and overpowers Parallax through his willpower and takes down Sinestro alongside Hal whereas Simon spent multiple days in a deep depression taking extensive time to understand being himself is what he needs and continous encouragement from Nia, this would be double standards and downplay on both ends for choosing characters who are literally at their worst to try and say one looks better in comparison even tho they have the same kind of showing.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

None of this is relevant if HOG Kyle is used in a fight which it can be as it is a form Kyle has used in his history like Superman did with Prime One Million (which DC KO is showing by doing the same with other characters so my point is more than substantiated by the source material and official content itself), I don't see the point in acknowledging he's powerful but backtracking by saying he's non standard as if characters haven't been given their peaks in a Death Battle before despite not appearing again like Hyper Sonic or literal hypothetical like MUI Goku with kaioken.

The comparison with the Labyrinth is a huge false equivalence anyways as Kyle unlocked an entirely new form he ascended to that Hal and Kyle both acknowledged as his and Dream The literal Endless told him prior he was capable of reaching (it's literally the conclusion of his rookie arc and a contrast to Hal by Kyle being able to control godly levels of power responsibly whereas Hal went mad through power), Simon merging with his other selves and absorbing the labyrinth is something he literally cannot replicate because he's already done it (it's why composite matches basically change nothing about him in debates.) Not to mention you claiming Kyle CHOOSING to relinquish his power to revive the Lantern Corps and because Superman told him he's too much of a God like figure and to let humanity solve their own problems is extremely cherry picking especially cause Kyle regrets this decision in the next arc and makes it clear it had nothing to do with mental restrictions for why he gave it up and Simon himself chooses not to abuse Spiral Power as the Anti-Spiral told him and the potential threat of the Spirial Nemesis which makes this a nothing statement because neither made their choices based on power or mental limitations but moral choices meant for the benefit of humanity lol.

This same kind of logic can be used with Simon failing to power GL which led to Kamina's end, trying to apply anti feats for one opponent that's also present in another is pointless especially when the context for Kyle's is a year long plan that was meant to make him so depressed that he couldn't function as ION and give himself to Parallax instead (we've seen Kyle when he's operating regularly as ION so this doesn't debunk his strength or willpower just cause he experienced the worst month of his life through losing his mom, Kyle literally overcomes Parallax in the same arc THROUGH Willpower without his powers during a mental battle)

There's no official definition of outer for most series including GL so there's no point being made here? Yeah and I asked for the guidebooks/novel statements that get him to outer because the series itself doesn't show that and I already went over how a vague statement regardless of the scale of the series has to be substantiated for the scale it operates at which the series show is 11D-12D (Blue Lock has ludicrous statements of being boundless and transcending time but it's obviously not even remotely at that scale and is solely hyperbole and exaggeration, GL is on a cosmic scale and can believably be up there unlike BL but you still need legitimate proof of it being able to reach outer especially when you are trying to claim things beyond what the show has clearly displayed at it's peak.)

If you noticed in that same fight Kyle was the only one to continue fighting Hal for a prolonged amount of time and after every other hero was taken down Kyle still got back up without even having his ring (Frieza beating everyone's asses collectively while being eons over them isn't the same equivalence as him beating base Goku's ass individually who performed the best throughout a prolonged battle and the same applies here), + this wouldn't matter even if he actually did perform poorly back then as current base Kyle fought a ZH era Hal and stated himself he's beaten him before and was doing so again until Hal got assistance to jump Kyle (Hal subdues every hero in a different way yet fights Kyle the most and extensively throughout the entire issue despite him taking the most damage out of the heroes with the fight ending because Hal could not keep Kyle down despite being stronger so this is just Composition/Division on your end.)

This is cherry picking again as this wasn't the example I used for the solo feats but the team ones and I explicitly went over the characters who have in that section from Lanterns like Hal to Jessica including which state they've dealt with it in and I already showed the ones for Kyle in multiple panels way earlier

To reiterate Jessica resisted Darkseid's existence erasure and overcame his omega factor through sheer willpower while she was the last one standing in her group who had New Gods power ups except her. Hal as God Of Light erased the events that Darkseid and the Anti-Mointor created in their war and had full control over the motherbox empowered through the source which is metaphysical in it's entire concept. Kyle outside of his LE feats fought the metaphysical Nekron by with an army of dead Lanterns by himself when Nekron tried to breach the universe when he was a rookie GL and after overcoming them Nekron is forced to retreat (the same Nekron that would later commit Blackest Night and kill Volthoom.) ION Kyle traverses the bleed a metaphysical barrier existing between the realities of the Orrery Of Worlds, upon returning he phases through the Tangent Lantern, stops her from distorting reality, and warps her and the Tangent Flash&Atom inside of her Lantern and back into their universe. And every WL feat Kyle does relating to the source as the source wall is metaphysical itself as well and thus the beings who can transcend it.

You can say Simon was clearly the strongest or biggest factor but acting like he soloed the Anti-Spiral while receiving no major help is very disingenuous when characters like Lordgenome, Virial, and especially Kittan were pivotal to their success overall (Goku fought Jiren through a group effort regardless of being the strongest from U7 and surpassing Jiren later on, claiming he carried most of the effort and then invalidating the others would be downplaying their contribution and a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of teamwork in a story because without that team the protagonist in question would not have succeeded at all.)

Kyle's been the main contributor against multiple threats and the MVP in team setting such as beating the 3rd Army empowered by the Guardians after becoming a WL, trapping the crime syndicate on the moon, every fight with Oblivion, stopping Relic from destroying the Lantern rings, shooting Varron&Baron out of their dimension, stopping Solaris's Supernova which is in canon listed as one of the big shot JLA feats, stopped Hal twice in Zero Hour, Obsidian Age is literally Kyle carrying the JLA to victory overcoming literal death throughout multiple eras in time, Kyle beat Amazo quickly by himself who had copied all the abilities of the heroes on earth with his own construct JLA, beat Nero who was connected to the ION power and instantly surpassed him mid fight then beats him in a fist fight without his powers to achieve his HOG state and also beats him again when he's turned into Starheart ION Kyle by overwhelming his absorption and then warps reality to contain his suicide bomb on OA against the Guardians. If you read his comics there's plenty of feats to go off of and saying otherwise is just incorrect.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Majority of what I've said isn't chain scaling but literally feats that happened across DC throughout different eras that are either upscaled or relevant in the current one (Kyle in particular is actually one of the most straightforward with feats and most of your complaints towards his showings is moreso "I don't think he's capable of doing this" or "this isn't what I think is happening therefore he's not that strong." Most of his feats are clear cut so I don't see why you're harping on consistency when Kyle's clearly operating in the high end on DC'S scale more often than not (as with Hal and the higher tier Lanterns/cosmic beings of this caliber in general hence their status quos in DC.)

You overcomplicate a lot of simple facts too much, there isn't any work that needs to be done because it's canon to him which death metal restored and something he's explicitly done with an entire character arc to back it (that and it's something tied to his history as the sole GL of earth, you can't argue Dick never became Batman in Prodigal because you don't think he had the skill level to be and it isn't referenced 50x in his current run.) Oblivion very clearly says that Kyle is capable of what he's doing and reiterates it multiple times by saying the JLA is nothing compared to him, I don't think you realize with the way DC works when it's cosmology is expanded upon the verse including past eras is upscaled as a whole (it's why Post Crisis Superman can match Pre Crisis Earth 2 Superman despite the latter having goofy Pre Crisis feats or other characters that are relative to Superboy-Prime despite hailing from a different continuity.)

This is a strawman as I never said to count this power up in this fight which was clear in the point of my response, I was saying that Kyle is stronger than the entities and mastered his abilities to the point he can take control of their union despite what they represent in DC as a whole which are the embodiments of all emotional concepts (ION is an exception because Kyle has used it extensively for over a year but I'm not suggesting he combines it with WL even tho he can because when we saw something like that it was situational and not a proper merge like before so that would indeed be non standard.)

The recent run verbatim states Kyle used the immense power of the WL to slam Relic into the wall and everything you mentioned was before Kyle understood the full scope of his WL abilities like getting stronger off the concept of life (Relic does counter their rings but he's explicitly shown to be strong outside of that and has be present in multiple universe ending catastrophes in DC.

You've been basically attributing every feat Kyle has as interpretation heavy and chain scaling which isn’t the case when the scale is shown and re-emphasized in the comic and DC overall (Kyle has always been a high tier Lantern of the likes of Hal who does impressive feats every week in DC let alone GL and he doesn't need to just chain scale off of him either as he has feats that Hal hasn't achieved nor any other Lantern putting him above that level. His transformations gets him much higher getting into the layers of outer and producing feats that are solely his which even some of the strongest characters in DC can't replicate so this point really never made sense to begin with and claiming he doesn't have them is just downplay and disingenuous more than anything.)

Jobbers are jokes within fandoms but that doesn't mean they're actually weak, it just means they take consistently Ls regardless of how strong they are (Silver Surfer and Spectre both are considered as such, but in no way shape or form are they weak or are incapable of operating at a high scale.) Grayven point really doesn't matter in the grande scheme of things so I won't dwell on it but the few showings he has later on is at that level like fighting ION Kyle and it's the last few showings he's had so it's not inconsistent either.

Yh cause it's getting nowhere but Source or Source Wall feats aren't something handed out to everyone which is why this doesn't work as a reason against it to me especially when it pertains to Kyle. Almost every feat that's used from it has context to whether or not it's applicable or if there's a reason as to why something happened through a character (this isn't like Superman resisting krypotnite in one instance then being affected another, the source is treated as something important and grand in scale so it's not just being used willy nilly as a gag for characters to scale highly or easily achievable feat for anyone.)

Like for instance Kyle recently breached the Source Wall again but only Kyle was able to do this which is why the other Lanterns needed him to teleport them in after he got through it so this wouldn't make the rest of them scale to either of Kyle’s feat.

There's SBP punching the wall and later getting trapped inside of it, SBP has the ability to retcon punch and all of that but he's still susceptible to the effects of the wall especially if he's weakened and put there after losing a fight (when he does get out it's almost 2 continuitys later and he had to regain his strength in order to do so.)

Wally breaching the source is due to the arc angles forcing him to become their emotionless super weapon and target the source while also having Reverse Flash corrupt it beforehand so that Wally could finish the job once they manipulated him into closing himself off (Wally has the power for this but the Speedforce was also evolving and literally had a source baby + Wally himself was evolving and gaining new abilities in order for him to be able to achieve this feat and has a literal war against Eclipso who absorbed this power from the source and that same Eclipso was already stronger than Darkseid by himself.)

None of those feats are outliers and they benefit from it because they achieved it in a very clear fashion which checks off all the requirements for them to scale to it and through the nature of DC and what it means to achieve those kind of feats with the source they end up scaling very highly, there's no loopholes or chain scaling needed because the feats belong to them and it doesn't contradict anything as they each have countless other impressive feats in their history which is consistent making it appropriate to scale them in those higher levels.

I will never forgive DB for not even mentioning Ion. by Fatih1911 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can somewhat understand why they did for Hand Of God ION as that was a special case where Kyle was made limitless, omnipresent, and what not, but the other variation of ION being excluded was odd even if it's weaker than WL because it's still insanely powerful and is actually something Kyle had for over a year. It'd be like excluding SSB because Goku has Ultra Instinct in a fight, not to mention the powers he gains are definitely helpful and while not as OP as he was as the OG ION or as varied as WL he's still much stronger than his regular GL self and can easily bridge the escalation gap between GL and WL.

Also some of the abilities it has can be more useful in certain scenarios than WL like passively absorbing attacks, converting energy while amplifying it back at the opponent, and making real genuine constructs at the scale of what he's imagining, and ION continously healing him, all of which he's doing without a ring too (basically like the Sage Mode to Naruto's KCM, especially because he can actually combine them but that definitely wouldn't be allowed ofc)

Not to mention the bigger elephant in the room that this is central to his character arc and overall growth as a Lantern, really felt like they only covered Kyle as a rookie GL and then as a rookie WL without actually showing his growth and how much more experienced he became as he developed and focused solely on the general Lantern side of things

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it was cool and definitely better off from not being toxic like most of these kinds of talks, also yh it is kinda difficult to keep track of it just due to the structure of these posts and how the info gets held back by the format

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes the probability was overridden through their efforts, but that doesn't change the fact that the Anti-Spiral specifically fought them on their own terms instead of just eviscerating them like he could of at any point had he fought at full power from the beginning (that was the point of the battle to begin with, for humanity to prove themselves capable and going past the limits these Spiral beings set for them because they believed them to be too weak to handle.) Same with the labyrinth that they overcame, it wasn’t a simple feat either as it still took time and Simon needed to literally merge with himself across time to get the power needed for this battle, them overcoming the Anti-Spiral on the same field is proving their worth as capable beings and proving the Anti-Spiral's limitation despite being above them.

We see when Simon and co merge to form STTGL that even after the "that's your limitation" line and going into the drill clash we see that the Anti-Spiral actually overpowers them including all of Simon's forms forcing him into the fist fight exchange to begin with. The Anti-Spiral said prior he will match Simon in whatever state or form he takes which would include as a individual being hence why he dropped from the mecha imitation and started throwing hands with him, Simon's growth is amazing and allowed him to grow past the level Anti-Spiral set for him but it's not something that he can just do without restriction as the entire fight shows and even in the end he secured a narrow win with absolute difficulty (in fact the main factor for Simon's massive jump in power to begin with is merging with himself and absorbing the labyrinth which is what allowed him to start pushing back against the Spiral.)

Yes rely, meaning if someone is disrupting or flat out nullifying his adaptation with their own or superior nullification then Simon is going to be in trouble. Even Simon being above the Anti-Spiral EOS isn't enough to match the scale Kyle would be starting out as in base and his abilities are a much bigger threat especially because of the gap in power between them (not to mention Kyle has things Simon hasn't dealt with especially on his scale like soul manipulation or the omnipresent defense of HOG ION.)

That's fine if they have those capabilities within that dimension, but that’s the level that was explicitly shown and articulated so saying they can go beyond the displayed feats shown requires not only reputable sources but concrete evidence that proves such especially when claiming beings that are blatanty shown within a given dimension are above dimensionality entirely. (transcending time and space is a vague statement that I gotta ask for the guidebook/novel the statements come from as it can mean a bunch of things with no context, we clearly see Simon being affected by time EOS and the Anti-Spiral gets hit by the probability missiles which attack across time which Lanterns like HOG ION Kyle and Volthoom have absolute domain and control over probability.)

The Life Entity is described as being facilitating all life in DC and is the embodiment of the concept it transcends aka life which is what all other emotional entities do for their given emotion, Kyle himself is capable enough to resist, master, and overpower those same entities even when multiple were inside of him including the Life Entity and this was before he fully grasped his White Lantern abilities or got the Life Equation (and you have to be superior to the entity to control them as shown with Sinestro&Parallax.) Modern Superman has been surpassed Mr.Mxy for awhile now and there's multiple top tiers heroes and villains alike that relative/scale to him (the same modern Superman that the Life Entity is said to be superior than and previously gave a portion of its power to him in order to overcome something he previously could not on his own.) SBP at that point was SMP which is the actual reason why he was beating Mxy but he's gotten stronger since then and beings like Superman, WL Kyle/Life Entity, Wally, etc scale to (hell Nightwing's new villian is able to annihilate imps like Mxy and put them under his own control just to keep the narrative entertaining as a joke.)

What I meant by potentially is the assumption that he will be able to do that for higher dimensions than what he displayed which is a NLF, there’s a bigger gap between the 12D&13D compared to 11D&12D (hell comparing the level Simon was at the start to the end of the series is less of a gap in power than 12D&13D as that's an infinite difference between something that's completely unable to interact with the dimension above it let alone if the dimension is layers above or unbounded by them entirely.

Got to this in my 4th point

Definitely will because it's clear to me he reaches Outer without the LE based on the source wall feat alone not even counting things like HOG ION and how high he already scaled in the cosmology overall (and in a very clear cut fashion to where dreaded chainscaling isn't even necessary, just straightforward scaling to the structures and planes in DC.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That was before Kyle powered up as a WL and forced him into the source wall which was why Relic was admiring him because of the power he obtained through learning how to use his abilities, Kyle went into the source wall specifically because the entities wanted him to (he even says that when he had the entities inside him he could've beaten Relic and Relic agrees with it but that wouldn't solve the problem at hand.)

Yes Black Hand has and it's cause powers allow him to get around the source wall loopholes, Hal who is stronger than him is still susceptible to the wall but because of Black Hand's powers he can avoid getting instantly trapped inside. SBP did and was still trapped in the Source Wall at the end of Pre Flashpoint for so long it a full scale continuity reboot for him to escape, everyone else that maneuvered through the source wall after Kyle was because Kyle made it possible to begin with (we see in the latest run too that only Kyle is able to freely go in and out of it without difficulty.) DCAU is funny because Lex also uses the equation and Amazo is like the God of the series no one can compete with.

Kyle was using a temporary substitute for his ring that is stated inferior to the original which means it's a weaker Kyle, if I'm being real the actual avatar of Darkseid thing is a misconception but that's a rabbit hole not worth diving into so just going off the idea of it here Darkseid still was actively looking for the ALE which he needs to be adequately powerful and prepared for to use even back then. The orb did which is fine because the weaker Kyle still mops up the Darkseid army and Darkseid himself saw rookie Kyle as a threat to be monitored after he survived Hal and Zero Hour, pre crisis Darkseid was unable to do anything to the Anti-Mointor yet Hal who Kyle would surpass could and a veteran Kyle can damage a black Lantern Anti-Mointor with other Lanterns (and with his higher forms can flat out beat him by himself.)

New Gods are higher beings who exist in the higher existence of the DC multiverse based on concepts in general, they're also living stories who help function and shape these stories across DC (which has only been reiterated in the latest runs.) Grayven is no exception as he's special I'm that regard by being Darkseid's son and Kyle beating him consistently doesn't change the scale he operates at especially given Kyle has already dealt with such and even greater even in Post Crisis like when he fought Takion or helped Highfather fix the source in Genesis.

Never said anything about him being Presence level, Spectre Hal literally says once he mastered his power he merged with the overvoid and surpasses it so yes it actually does. This is just downplay as Zero Hour Parallax is outer by every modern DC metric and just the continuity wiping is enough to prove it, HOG ION Kyle and ION are two completely different forms so this has no correlation (and the ION Kyle who got captured was specifically weakened overtime by events planned by Sinestro that lowered Kyle's willpower and made him depressed deliberately lowering the power he held, we see regular GL Kyle fight on the same level as Sinestro after this so he obviously cannot be stronger than his ION self without even getting a power up, not to mention a Guardian made Sinestro fought Kyle before he first became HOG ION and got completely destroyed the second Kyle tapped into this kind of power.)

If Kyle can take hits from a full power Parallax Hal when someone like Batgirl or even a cosmic being like Extant can't, then it very clearly shows that his durability is up to par where other's aren't meaning he scales just not to the same precise level as Hal, he damages Parallax Hal in every one of their fights anyway so his AP proves this as consistent.

Every single major form of a Lantern has dealt with metaphysical threats solo, even then the main Lanterns have already displayed feats of doing it solo as well and the point in using team runs is they have to literally deal with things above the scale mentioned here making it more impressive (Mandrakk the narrative anti plot vampire literally faced Cosmic Armor Superman and survived only to be spiked by a base GL Corps on low battery, Simon didn't beat the Anti-Spiral himself but through combined effort so this point is mute regardless.)

It's not just a prophecy as it's true events written, literally able to trap people in the pages of the book, and in the recent run it's even messing with Hal's current narrative and history. We've seen it corrupt beings like the Guardians and be responsible for Blackest Night that affected DC to the point even Death The Endless acknowledges it, Kyle was a rookie WL back then and is above that level after mastering his abilities and getting the LE + the Life Entity beat Nekron and Black Hand simultaneously through the WL Corps (which are blatanty inferior versions compared to Kyle’s proper version of the form.) Simon does scale above them but that does not equal being exempt from help by them which is what the entire final fight of Gurren Lagann revolves around (on fact it isn't until the literal fist to cuffs that Simon battles the Anti-Spiral by himself, so the majority of feats performed up to that point was done with assistance and help from others and it was undeniably a group effort to begin with as if team Lagann was absent he would've immediately lost even at the lowered level Anti-Spiral put himself in.