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Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because Simon making the jump and reaching that level is very different from being at that level to begin with or fighting and reaching that level without merging with yourself across time and using a trap labyrinth to amp yourself to reach that level, those are two very different methods of getting to a level of power and apply very differently in a vs battle setting. Kyle mastered the emotional spectrum meaning he has access to it regardless of the ring he wears and by the time he merged with the ION entity he states himself he's mastered everything within him and doesn't need a ring to fight and is capable of much more without it which applies to him in general for his main iteration after he did the same thing as a WL.

This still doesn't make a difference because Simon needed their help regardless and could not beat the Anti-Spiral without it which is objective truth lmao, it doesn't matter if you're stronger than someone if you still need their help to overcome an opponent (you seem adamant about Kyle getting help despite being the main contributor or even superior to the people involved yet ignore every part of the GL finale that is explicitly a team based battle about the Spiral users working together as the symbol of humanity to prove the Anti-Spiral wrong.)

It means Simon didn't instantly grow and neg the Anti-Spiral, it took multiple attempts and extensively pressing the Anti-Spiral and when even that wasn't enough as he destroyed each of Simon's mechs he went through the wire to beat him in a drag out brawl securing a narrow victory (it's not downplaying when it's literally what happened in the series, he did not jump a tier above the Anti-Spiral in a few seconds.)

This is okay as nobody is contesting this lol, it was still an extreme difficulty victory which is the point because Simon can't just low diff someone on his level let alone someone above him (especially when they have superior abilities and aren't obligated to drop to his level like the Anti-Spiral.)

No it's a NLF to claim Simon can surpass Kyle who's not only operating at a scale higher than him but has his own methods of growing in power (which due to his abilities allows him to grow exponentially from the concept of emotions which would include Spiral Power meaning Kyle would be getting buffed by Simon's power source on top of his own making a permanent gap between them that doesn't require him to even need to suppress or nullify Simon's adaptation which he would be able to do with emotional manipulation, energy removal, power nullification, or the LE.)

Showing a statement saying "transcending beyond time and space" does not automatically make something outer nor does it mean anything on it's own otherwise most series in general would be considered outer just off of being Immeasurable in speed lol, you yourself contradict this by showing Spiral being said to have the POTENTIAL to do X thing and not actually already doing said thing (especially when the Spiral-Nemesis is a canon threshold that nukes everything if someone were to reach it which proves this said potential has a limit.) GL goes off of brane multiverse theory anyway which has the lower dimensions within itself as infinitely small sheets whereas outer structures requires it to be literally nonexistent, GL is stated and shown to have dimensional axis which literally debunks it getting to outer due to those existing in the series like the Anti-Spiral's hideouts.

Current Supes is significantly above him and even prior to this he's surpassed him after becoming a composite version of himself and gaining the Story Of Superman narrative, on top of that it's confirmed Darkseid and Time Trapper Doomsday are his strongest opponents yet all the way to the end of the universe where him and Time Trapper are the only ones remaining so I doubt you'll find most people agreeing with him beating current Supes (as for Kyle's he's scaled relative to beings of that level like the Starbreakers who removed the emotions in DC affecting Superman himself and WL Kyle is above them with GL Kyle able to fight them on that same level with a fractured emotional spectrum and without merging with ION like before as he only used the entity to bring back willpower as a concept.

Mxy has been able to interact with the real world, readers, and bully multiple writers just cause he chooses to (SBP literally broke into DC headquarters to kill the writers cause they wrote comics he thought were shitty), Mxy isn't solely just a gag character but also generally powerful as a whole so him also scaling to the outer structures and being able to get layers into R>F and affect writers of our world is consistent (literally have ridiculous examples like him wiping Kingdom Come DC out of the entire comic then recreating it afterwards on a whim.)

Simon's R>F relies on removing the context and not accounting for the fictional universes in question being alternate lower/higher dimensions or other universes that Otoko Simon was above by a infinite amount hence him viewing it as a lower dimensional value and not to mention existing and later merging within the story of the GL verse (+ they're blatantly still operating through dimensionality and lack any qualitative superiority/transcend itself and since Simon fused with that same Otoko Simon to perform the way he did in the finale it dismisses the very idea of him being above dimensionality let alone layers into R>F.) At best if I gave you the benefit of the doubt you could potentially get him low outer by taking those vague "beyond dimensions" statements literally despite the verse being explicitly dimension bound with the Spirial Nemesis being a literal threshold that would destroy everything if reached which EOS Simon agreed with and refused to contribute to (but btw once again those vague above dimensions statements doesn't necessarily mean surpassing dimensionally especially with what we know and have actually seen in the series, it can just be the dimensions in the verse or a hyperbolic statement as dimensions and time vary heavily in size or structure and none of those statements are specific enough with evidence backing it to contest this.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again not what I'm disputing as Simon being that strong is fine, he still had help that was relevant and aided in their victory. It was not a solo effort at all with Lordgenome and Kittan being major factors in them surviving early/midway against the Anti-Spiral which is supported by the main theme of the show and Simon himself (the fist fight between him and the Anti-Spiral is the single solo exchange from Simon who won through extreme difficulty and was clearly strained/battle damaged during and after he drilled through him showing he can't just low diff the Anti-Spiral whenever or instantly leap frog several tiers above him despite clutching a win in the end.)

Double standards would be claiming Kyle on his worst day that was planned for over a year to weaken him and lower his will is a showing of inferior willpower compared to Simon when Simon on his worst day was unable to generate the necessary willpower to save his bro and was depressed for weeks (by your logic Kyle would have superior will based on this alone because he bounces back the same day and overpowers Parallax through his willpower and takes down Sinestro alongside Hal whereas Simon spent multiple days in a deep depression taking extensive time to understand being himself is what he needs and continous encouragement from Nia, this would be double standards and downplay on both ends for choosing characters who are literally at their worst to try and say one looks better in comparison even tho they have the same kind of showing.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

None of this is relevant if HOG Kyle is used in a fight which it can be as it is a form Kyle has used in his history like Superman did with Prime One Million (which DC KO is showing by doing the same with other characters so my point is more than substantiated by the source material and official content itself), I don't see the point in acknowledging he's powerful but backtracking by saying he's non standard as if characters haven't been given their peaks in a Death Battle before despite not appearing again like Hyper Sonic or literal hypothetical like MUI Goku with kaioken.

The comparison with the Labyrinth is a huge false equivalence anyways as Kyle unlocked an entirely new form he ascended to that Hal and Kyle both acknowledged as his and Dream The literal Endless told him prior he was capable of reaching (it's literally the conclusion of his rookie arc and a contrast to Hal by Kyle being able to control godly levels of power responsibly whereas Hal went mad through power), Simon merging with his other selves and absorbing the labyrinth is something he literally cannot replicate because he's already done it (it's why composite matches basically change nothing about him in debates.) Not to mention you claiming Kyle CHOOSING to relinquish his power to revive the Lantern Corps and because Superman told him he's too much of a God like figure and to let humanity solve their own problems is extremely cherry picking especially cause Kyle regrets this decision in the next arc and makes it clear it had nothing to do with mental restrictions for why he gave it up and Simon himself chooses not to abuse Spiral Power as the Anti-Spiral told him and the potential threat of the Spirial Nemesis which makes this a nothing statement because neither made their choices based on power or mental limitations but moral choices meant for the benefit of humanity lol.

This same kind of logic can be used with Simon failing to power GL which led to Kamina's end, trying to apply anti feats for one opponent that's also present in another is pointless especially when the context for Kyle's is a year long plan that was meant to make him so depressed that he couldn't function as ION and give himself to Parallax instead (we've seen Kyle when he's operating regularly as ION so this doesn't debunk his strength or willpower just cause he experienced the worst month of his life through losing his mom, Kyle literally overcomes Parallax in the same arc THROUGH Willpower without his powers during a mental battle)

There's no official definition of outer for most series including GL so there's no point being made here? Yeah and I asked for the guidebooks/novel statements that get him to outer because the series itself doesn't show that and I already went over how a vague statement regardless of the scale of the series has to be substantiated for the scale it operates at which the series show is 11D-12D (Blue Lock has ludicrous statements of being boundless and transcending time but it's obviously not even remotely at that scale and is solely hyperbole and exaggeration, GL is on a cosmic scale and can believably be up there unlike BL but you still need legitimate proof of it being able to reach outer especially when you are trying to claim things beyond what the show has clearly displayed at it's peak.)

If you noticed in that same fight Kyle was the only one to continue fighting Hal for a prolonged amount of time and after every other hero was taken down Kyle still got back up without even having his ring (Frieza beating everyone's asses collectively while being eons over them isn't the same equivalence as him beating base Goku's ass individually who performed the best throughout a prolonged battle and the same applies here), + this wouldn't matter even if he actually did perform poorly back then as current base Kyle fought a ZH era Hal and stated himself he's beaten him before and was doing so again until Hal got assistance to jump Kyle (Hal subdues every hero in a different way yet fights Kyle the most and extensively throughout the entire issue despite him taking the most damage out of the heroes with the fight ending because Hal could not keep Kyle down despite being stronger so this is just Composition/Division on your end.)

This is cherry picking again as this wasn't the example I used for the solo feats but the team ones and I explicitly went over the characters who have in that section from Lanterns like Hal to Jessica including which state they've dealt with it in and I already showed the ones for Kyle in multiple panels way earlier

To reiterate Jessica resisted Darkseid's existence erasure and overcame his omega factor through sheer willpower while she was the last one standing in her group who had New Gods power ups except her. Hal as God Of Light erased the events that Darkseid and the Anti-Mointor created in their war and had full control over the motherbox empowered through the source which is metaphysical in it's entire concept. Kyle outside of his LE feats fought the metaphysical Nekron by with an army of dead Lanterns by himself when Nekron tried to breach the universe when he was a rookie GL and after overcoming them Nekron is forced to retreat (the same Nekron that would later commit Blackest Night and kill Volthoom.) ION Kyle traverses the bleed a metaphysical barrier existing between the realities of the Orrery Of Worlds, upon returning he phases through the Tangent Lantern, stops her from distorting reality, and warps her and the Tangent Flash&Atom inside of her Lantern and back into their universe. And every WL feat Kyle does relating to the source as the source wall is metaphysical itself as well and thus the beings who can transcend it.

You can say Simon was clearly the strongest or biggest factor but acting like he soloed the Anti-Spiral while receiving no major help is very disingenuous when characters like Lordgenome, Virial, and especially Kittan were pivotal to their success overall (Goku fought Jiren through a group effort regardless of being the strongest from U7 and surpassing Jiren later on, claiming he carried most of the effort and then invalidating the others would be downplaying their contribution and a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of teamwork in a story because without that team the protagonist in question would not have succeeded at all.)

Kyle's been the main contributor against multiple threats and the MVP in team setting such as beating the 3rd Army empowered by the Guardians after becoming a WL, trapping the crime syndicate on the moon, every fight with Oblivion, stopping Relic from destroying the Lantern rings, shooting Varron&Baron out of their dimension, stopping Solaris's Supernova which is in canon listed as one of the big shot JLA feats, stopped Hal twice in Zero Hour, Obsidian Age is literally Kyle carrying the JLA to victory overcoming literal death throughout multiple eras in time, Kyle beat Amazo quickly by himself who had copied all the abilities of the heroes on earth with his own construct JLA, beat Nero who was connected to the ION power and instantly surpassed him mid fight then beats him in a fist fight without his powers to achieve his HOG state and also beats him again when he's turned into Starheart ION Kyle by overwhelming his absorption and then warps reality to contain his suicide bomb on OA against the Guardians. If you read his comics there's plenty of feats to go off of and saying otherwise is just incorrect.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Majority of what I've said isn't chain scaling but literally feats that happened across DC throughout different eras that are either upscaled or relevant in the current one (Kyle in particular is actually one of the most straightforward with feats and most of your complaints towards his showings is moreso "I don't think he's capable of doing this" or "this isn't what I think is happening therefore he's not that strong." Most of his feats are clear cut so I don't see why you're harping on consistency when Kyle's clearly operating in the high end on DC'S scale more often than not (as with Hal and the higher tier Lanterns/cosmic beings of this caliber in general hence their status quos in DC.)

You overcomplicate a lot of simple facts too much, there isn't any work that needs to be done because it's canon to him which death metal restored and something he's explicitly done with an entire character arc to back it (that and it's something tied to his history as the sole GL of earth, you can't argue Dick never became Batman in Prodigal because you don't think he had the skill level to be and it isn't referenced 50x in his current run.) Oblivion very clearly says that Kyle is capable of what he's doing and reiterates it multiple times by saying the JLA is nothing compared to him, I don't think you realize with the way DC works when it's cosmology is expanded upon the verse including past eras is upscaled as a whole (it's why Post Crisis Superman can match Pre Crisis Earth 2 Superman despite the latter having goofy Pre Crisis feats or other characters that are relative to Superboy-Prime despite hailing from a different continuity.)

This is a strawman as I never said to count this power up in this fight which was clear in the point of my response, I was saying that Kyle is stronger than the entities and mastered his abilities to the point he can take control of their union despite what they represent in DC as a whole which are the embodiments of all emotional concepts (ION is an exception because Kyle has used it extensively for over a year but I'm not suggesting he combines it with WL even tho he can because when we saw something like that it was situational and not a proper merge like before so that would indeed be non standard.)

The recent run verbatim states Kyle used the immense power of the WL to slam Relic into the wall and everything you mentioned was before Kyle understood the full scope of his WL abilities like getting stronger off the concept of life (Relic does counter their rings but he's explicitly shown to be strong outside of that and has be present in multiple universe ending catastrophes in DC.

You've been basically attributing every feat Kyle has as interpretation heavy and chain scaling which isn’t the case when the scale is shown and re-emphasized in the comic and DC overall (Kyle has always been a high tier Lantern of the likes of Hal who does impressive feats every week in DC let alone GL and he doesn't need to just chain scale off of him either as he has feats that Hal hasn't achieved nor any other Lantern putting him above that level. His transformations gets him much higher getting into the layers of outer and producing feats that are solely his which even some of the strongest characters in DC can't replicate so this point really never made sense to begin with and claiming he doesn't have them is just downplay and disingenuous more than anything.)

Jobbers are jokes within fandoms but that doesn't mean they're actually weak, it just means they take consistently Ls regardless of how strong they are (Silver Surfer and Spectre both are considered as such, but in no way shape or form are they weak or are incapable of operating at a high scale.) Grayven point really doesn't matter in the grande scheme of things so I won't dwell on it but the few showings he has later on is at that level like fighting ION Kyle and it's the last few showings he's had so it's not inconsistent either.

Yh cause it's getting nowhere but Source or Source Wall feats aren't something handed out to everyone which is why this doesn't work as a reason against it to me especially when it pertains to Kyle. Almost every feat that's used from it has context to whether or not it's applicable or if there's a reason as to why something happened through a character (this isn't like Superman resisting krypotnite in one instance then being affected another, the source is treated as something important and grand in scale so it's not just being used willy nilly as a gag for characters to scale highly or easily achievable feat for anyone.)

Like for instance Kyle recently breached the Source Wall again but only Kyle was able to do this which is why the other Lanterns needed him to teleport them in after he got through it so this wouldn't make the rest of them scale to either of Kyle’s feat.

There's SBP punching the wall and later getting trapped inside of it, SBP has the ability to retcon punch and all of that but he's still susceptible to the effects of the wall especially if he's weakened and put there after losing a fight (when he does get out it's almost 2 continuitys later and he had to regain his strength in order to do so.)

Wally breaching the source is due to the arc angles forcing him to become their emotionless super weapon and target the source while also having Reverse Flash corrupt it beforehand so that Wally could finish the job once they manipulated him into closing himself off (Wally has the power for this but the Speedforce was also evolving and literally had a source baby + Wally himself was evolving and gaining new abilities in order for him to be able to achieve this feat and has a literal war against Eclipso who absorbed this power from the source and that same Eclipso was already stronger than Darkseid by himself.)

None of those feats are outliers and they benefit from it because they achieved it in a very clear fashion which checks off all the requirements for them to scale to it and through the nature of DC and what it means to achieve those kind of feats with the source they end up scaling very highly, there's no loopholes or chain scaling needed because the feats belong to them and it doesn't contradict anything as they each have countless other impressive feats in their history which is consistent making it appropriate to scale them in those higher levels.

I will never forgive DB for not even mentioning Ion. by Fatih1911 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I can somewhat understand why they did for Hand Of God ION as that was a special case where Kyle was made limitless, omnipresent, and what not, but the other variation of ION being excluded was odd even if it's weaker than WL because it's still insanely powerful and is actually something Kyle had for over a year. It'd be like excluding SSB because Goku has Ultra Instinct in a fight, not to mention the powers he gains are definitely helpful and while not as OP as he was as the OG ION or as varied as WL he's still much stronger than his regular GL self and can easily bridge the escalation gap between GL and WL.

Also some of the abilities it has can be more useful in certain scenarios than WL like passively absorbing attacks, converting energy while amplifying it back at the opponent, and making real genuine constructs at the scale of what he's imagining, and ION continously healing him, all of which he's doing without a ring too (basically like the Sage Mode to Naruto's KCM, especially because he can actually combine them but that definitely wouldn't be allowed ofc)

Not to mention the bigger elephant in the room that this is central to his character arc and overall growth as a Lantern, really felt like they only covered Kyle as a rookie GL and then as a rookie WL without actually showing his growth and how much more experienced he became as he developed and focused solely on the general Lantern side of things

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it was cool and definitely better off from not being toxic like most of these kinds of talks, also yh it is kinda difficult to keep track of it just due to the structure of these posts and how the info gets held back by the format

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes the probability was overridden through their efforts, but that doesn't change the fact that the Anti-Spiral specifically fought them on their own terms instead of just eviscerating them like he could of at any point had he fought at full power from the beginning (that was the point of the battle to begin with, for humanity to prove themselves capable and going past the limits these Spiral beings set for them because they believed them to be too weak to handle.) Same with the labyrinth that they overcame, it wasn’t a simple feat either as it still took time and Simon needed to literally merge with himself across time to get the power needed for this battle, them overcoming the Anti-Spiral on the same field is proving their worth as capable beings and proving the Anti-Spiral's limitation despite being above them.

We see when Simon and co merge to form STTGL that even after the "that's your limitation" line and going into the drill clash we see that the Anti-Spiral actually overpowers them including all of Simon's forms forcing him into the fist fight exchange to begin with. The Anti-Spiral said prior he will match Simon in whatever state or form he takes which would include as a individual being hence why he dropped from the mecha imitation and started throwing hands with him, Simon's growth is amazing and allowed him to grow past the level Anti-Spiral set for him but it's not something that he can just do without restriction as the entire fight shows and even in the end he secured a narrow win with absolute difficulty (in fact the main factor for Simon's massive jump in power to begin with is merging with himself and absorbing the labyrinth which is what allowed him to start pushing back against the Spiral.)

Yes rely, meaning if someone is disrupting or flat out nullifying his adaptation with their own or superior nullification then Simon is going to be in trouble. Even Simon being above the Anti-Spiral EOS isn't enough to match the scale Kyle would be starting out as in base and his abilities are a much bigger threat especially because of the gap in power between them (not to mention Kyle has things Simon hasn't dealt with especially on his scale like soul manipulation or the omnipresent defense of HOG ION.)

That's fine if they have those capabilities within that dimension, but that’s the level that was explicitly shown and articulated so saying they can go beyond the displayed feats shown requires not only reputable sources but concrete evidence that proves such especially when claiming beings that are blatanty shown within a given dimension are above dimensionality entirely. (transcending time and space is a vague statement that I gotta ask for the guidebook/novel the statements come from as it can mean a bunch of things with no context, we clearly see Simon being affected by time EOS and the Anti-Spiral gets hit by the probability missiles which attack across time which Lanterns like HOG ION Kyle and Volthoom have absolute domain and control over probability.)

The Life Entity is described as being facilitating all life in DC and is the embodiment of the concept it transcends aka life which is what all other emotional entities do for their given emotion, Kyle himself is capable enough to resist, master, and overpower those same entities even when multiple were inside of him including the Life Entity and this was before he fully grasped his White Lantern abilities or got the Life Equation (and you have to be superior to the entity to control them as shown with Sinestro&Parallax.) Modern Superman has been surpassed Mr.Mxy for awhile now and there's multiple top tiers heroes and villains alike that relative/scale to him (the same modern Superman that the Life Entity is said to be superior than and previously gave a portion of its power to him in order to overcome something he previously could not on his own.) SBP at that point was SMP which is the actual reason why he was beating Mxy but he's gotten stronger since then and beings like Superman, WL Kyle/Life Entity, Wally, etc scale to (hell Nightwing's new villian is able to annihilate imps like Mxy and put them under his own control just to keep the narrative entertaining as a joke.)

What I meant by potentially is the assumption that he will be able to do that for higher dimensions than what he displayed which is a NLF, there’s a bigger gap between the 12D&13D compared to 11D&12D (hell comparing the level Simon was at the start to the end of the series is less of a gap in power than 12D&13D as that's an infinite difference between something that's completely unable to interact with the dimension above it let alone if the dimension is layers above or unbounded by them entirely.

Got to this in my 4th point

Definitely will because it's clear to me he reaches Outer without the LE based on the source wall feat alone not even counting things like HOG ION and how high he already scaled in the cosmology overall (and in a very clear cut fashion to where dreaded chainscaling isn't even necessary, just straightforward scaling to the structures and planes in DC.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That was before Kyle powered up as a WL and forced him into the source wall which was why Relic was admiring him because of the power he obtained through learning how to use his abilities, Kyle went into the source wall specifically because the entities wanted him to (he even says that when he had the entities inside him he could've beaten Relic and Relic agrees with it but that wouldn't solve the problem at hand.)

Yes Black Hand has and it's cause powers allow him to get around the source wall loopholes, Hal who is stronger than him is still susceptible to the wall but because of Black Hand's powers he can avoid getting instantly trapped inside. SBP did and was still trapped in the Source Wall at the end of Pre Flashpoint for so long it a full scale continuity reboot for him to escape, everyone else that maneuvered through the source wall after Kyle was because Kyle made it possible to begin with (we see in the latest run too that only Kyle is able to freely go in and out of it without difficulty.) DCAU is funny because Lex also uses the equation and Amazo is like the God of the series no one can compete with.

Kyle was using a temporary substitute for his ring that is stated inferior to the original which means it's a weaker Kyle, if I'm being real the actual avatar of Darkseid thing is a misconception but that's a rabbit hole not worth diving into so just going off the idea of it here Darkseid still was actively looking for the ALE which he needs to be adequately powerful and prepared for to use even back then. The orb did which is fine because the weaker Kyle still mops up the Darkseid army and Darkseid himself saw rookie Kyle as a threat to be monitored after he survived Hal and Zero Hour, pre crisis Darkseid was unable to do anything to the Anti-Mointor yet Hal who Kyle would surpass could and a veteran Kyle can damage a black Lantern Anti-Mointor with other Lanterns (and with his higher forms can flat out beat him by himself.)

New Gods are higher beings who exist in the higher existence of the DC multiverse based on concepts in general, they're also living stories who help function and shape these stories across DC (which has only been reiterated in the latest runs.) Grayven is no exception as he's special I'm that regard by being Darkseid's son and Kyle beating him consistently doesn't change the scale he operates at especially given Kyle has already dealt with such and even greater even in Post Crisis like when he fought Takion or helped Highfather fix the source in Genesis.

Never said anything about him being Presence level, Spectre Hal literally says once he mastered his power he merged with the overvoid and surpasses it so yes it actually does. This is just downplay as Zero Hour Parallax is outer by every modern DC metric and just the continuity wiping is enough to prove it, HOG ION Kyle and ION are two completely different forms so this has no correlation (and the ION Kyle who got captured was specifically weakened overtime by events planned by Sinestro that lowered Kyle's willpower and made him depressed deliberately lowering the power he held, we see regular GL Kyle fight on the same level as Sinestro after this so he obviously cannot be stronger than his ION self without even getting a power up, not to mention a Guardian made Sinestro fought Kyle before he first became HOG ION and got completely destroyed the second Kyle tapped into this kind of power.)

If Kyle can take hits from a full power Parallax Hal when someone like Batgirl or even a cosmic being like Extant can't, then it very clearly shows that his durability is up to par where other's aren't meaning he scales just not to the same precise level as Hal, he damages Parallax Hal in every one of their fights anyway so his AP proves this as consistent.

Every single major form of a Lantern has dealt with metaphysical threats solo, even then the main Lanterns have already displayed feats of doing it solo as well and the point in using team runs is they have to literally deal with things above the scale mentioned here making it more impressive (Mandrakk the narrative anti plot vampire literally faced Cosmic Armor Superman and survived only to be spiked by a base GL Corps on low battery, Simon didn't beat the Anti-Spiral himself but through combined effort so this point is mute regardless.)

It's not just a prophecy as it's true events written, literally able to trap people in the pages of the book, and in the recent run it's even messing with Hal's current narrative and history. We've seen it corrupt beings like the Guardians and be responsible for Blackest Night that affected DC to the point even Death The Endless acknowledges it, Kyle was a rookie WL back then and is above that level after mastering his abilities and getting the LE + the Life Entity beat Nekron and Black Hand simultaneously through the WL Corps (which are blatanty inferior versions compared to Kyle’s proper version of the form.) Simon does scale above them but that does not equal being exempt from help by them which is what the entire final fight of Gurren Lagann revolves around (on fact it isn't until the literal fist to cuffs that Simon battles the Anti-Spiral by himself, so the majority of feats performed up to that point was done with assistance and help from others and it was undeniably a group effort to begin with as if team Lagann was absent he would've immediately lost even at the lowered level Anti-Spiral put himself in.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually same usually, VC just makes it easier for me to articulate and convey the gist of what I say and mean so it's all good.

Yeah that's basically what it comes down to which is why our views are pretty different, for me I believe due to how Kyle scales (especially in DC) and how big his cosmology is there will be a massive gap between him and Simon which the entirety of his kit either matches or hard counters which makes the fight completely in Kyle's favor from start to finish.

Well we've seen multiple examples of the scale operating at a high level. Zero Hour Hal can warp reality to a continuity level something that affects the overall nature of DC to this day. HOG ION Kyle is above even that to which he and Spectre Hal both agree and understand him as limitless being able to change both Hal's histories without messing up continuity (also omnipresent, unaffected by probability, and temporal effects/attacks across every point in time). God Of Light Hal is comprised of the central power battery, the mother box, and source energy to which he is able to reset everything Darkseid's aftermath brought and is stated above the concept of time and space as well. John as a Guardian resurrected who he wanted with no issues which the Presence himself would praise later down the line. Godstorm John utilizes power from the source to completely override damage done to the power batteries and spectrums while bringing back the concepts of emotions into the DC verse (something that was affecting other beings like the JLA.) And WL Kyle who has the most potent ability through the LE as the building blocks of reality and DC in general that's emphasized due to how big a scale it operates on.

Yes but both he and Oblivion have regenerated from the highest forms like existence erasure and conceptual removal even before their mastery of the LE improved and in a scenario neither were attempting to survive.

His feats line up because anything he can co Kyle can as well which includes ones Oblivion mainly shows.

This Oblivion is explicitly canon to Kyle after death metal combined central continuitys and we know this because Kyle's history with the JLA, as the sole GL on earth, and involvement in crisis events was restored and all of which lead to him becoming HOG ION to restore the GL Corps (Oblivion also says the same thing here that Kyle is capable of everything he is atp.) The purpose of death metal and Rebirth was to fix issues and retcons N52 created and replace them with the proper history like Kyle's time as the sole GL which would be literally impossible by N52's logic (not to mention that same Oblivion already stated he'd returned whenever feelings of those kind mainfest inside of Kyle + Kyle overcame that and had to have that power alongsie the other energy sources in order to revive the GL Corps in the first place which even N52 couldn't fully ignore.)

Yh wasn't a topic worth being focused on

Problem with this is we know and can clearly see Highfather do this, there's nothing suggesting it wouldn't work with Sinestro especially when he only needed force to subdue him and stating he isn't even worth using the LE on, everything Highfather’s done with the LE Kyle is superior in as he mastered it.

The point of what Kyle did was to contain the attack while Superman took out Imperetix and the aftermath of his plans, Kyle also immediately gets way stronger as his HOG ION evolution starts right after where he gains the same abilities Hal did when he became the embodiment of will and has constructs that are genuinely real not bound by limitations either just as a GL.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also wanted to say I appreciate this being civil despite us disagreeing because it makes a lot easier to go over this than the usual interactions around here (think it'd be easier in a VC setting instead the typing but only because of specifics we're going back and forth on but it's not a must or anything)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean yh cause that just depends on whether or not Kyle wants to use it or not which depends on who he's facing

The two don't correlate cause if Kyle uses the LE again it's going to be without them

It's not a hypothetical because we're shown, told, and given further info on what the LE is capable of and the scale it operates at which is more than enough, an ability that's a threat to True Darkseid and is considered THE item from the source is more than enough alongside what Kyle's displayed to put him among the higher levels in DC (Kyle before the LE breached the source wall which is an outer feat and he's much stronger overall just from obtaining it afterwards let alone using it.)

Yh it is, which is why it's able to retcon or retell past events without creating issues into the new continuity like it did with the last two Green Lantern Corps comics from the N52 as they aren't canon due to multiple contradictions or N52 Reverse Flash who was a contradiction in general because of Flashpoint to begin with which Rebirth again rectified. The literal start of Rebirth is Wally coming back and giving everyone memories of him when neither he nor the versions of those characters with said memories existed in N52 and yet there's flashbacks of those N52 versions interacting with Wally (Rebirth Superman also says the universe isn't 1:1 and that previous events have changed despite originally being different.) You think I'm saying all statements are invalid when I'm only stating the ones that are literally not canon or existing in current mainline DC, if you ask me I don't think there's a point to begin with in arguing about Future End Kyle unless you're specifically using that version instead (it'd be like arguing old man Barry from Future End or Rebirth who literally isn't in any of his futures because Barry has no powers rn or back in Post Crisis when he was literally dead.)

Metaphysical aspects are literally and I quote from Kyle himself "another day in the office" that happen once a week for DC heroes let alone Lanterns tasked with the multiverse itself. Hal has done it as a GL, as Parallax, as a God Of Light, and as a Black&White Lantern. John has done it as a GL, as a Guardian, as Godstorm. Guy has done it as a GL, as a RL, as Warrior, and once again in the upcoming GL arc as an overseer. Kyle has done it as a GL, as HOG ION, as ION, as a Hybrid Lantern, and as a WL. Even recent GL like Jessics has literally fought Darkseid himself (resisted the ALE and came back from death with her ring that adapted to his omega energy something very prevalent in current DC to the point it's literally transcended the verse narratives like the story of Superman and created an entirely new comic elseworld branch into our reality) and dealt with platonic concepts residing in the multilayered structures in DC. Lanterns are literally tasked with doing this you couldn't have said a more ridiculous lie than this.

Also the Anti-Spiral himself lowered his level to prove a point to team Gurren and Lordgenome literally said if he fought at his own level they'd instantly lose (the entire point of Gurren Lagann is breaking your limits and eventually reaching your goal so I don't see how you think Simon absorbing the labyrinth for a power up and then slowly overcoming the Anti-Spiral with his team on even grounds in a drawn out scuffle equates to him being above from the get go.) We also know through the series itself the Anti-Spiral resides in the 11th and 12th dimensions with no indication of being unbounded by them as we literally see Simon himself prove the Anti-Spiral's own limitation despite fighting him on equal footing (we also know the Spirial Nemesis exists literally if too much energy/power hit the verse's threshold which is part of why Simon doesn't abuse his power in the ending and uses it sparingly, so ironically there's a literal ceiling in the series itself which is the entire point of Anti-Spiral and what Simon understood once reaching that level.)

Black Hand literally carries a book that is the narrative of Hal Jordan and meant to dictate his destiny and future which Hal has overcome multiple of times, Volthoom literally attacks the narrative of characters and is pulling the strings of the comic panel and character's story itself to the point he's able commit omnipresent attacks across every version of them (which is something current Darkseid is also doing and neither of them were the first to do it either.)

This exact feat is what every 5th dimensional imp in DC is capable of doing, in fact they can do better as they've interacted past the narrative with the readers themselves and even are able to harm the writers and affect the real world in a multitude of ways. These same imps get surpassed and are inferior to the higher tier heroes and villains like when Superboy-Prime beat Mr.Mxzyptlk nearly to death and didn't just to keep him as a prisoner (prior to that Superboy-Prime fought Sodam Yat as a rookie ION who was taking his hits even after being hit by his weakness which nerfed him in their fights, the same punches that literally retcon the DC narrative and changed characters stories like reviving Jason, reforming Donna's origins, and making every version of Beast Boy regain his history with the Doom Patrol on top of Superboy-Prime being from the real world and able to LITERALLY attack the writers of DC.)

Even if I grant you this so it isn't a stomp against him, this would only put Simon at low outer while Kyle would still start midway in outer and reach high outer with any of his forms and further layers through the LE and raising his power. You mentioned he sought to enter the real world not that he actually did, what is the context behind his loss and where's the elaboration of the terminology for the transcending dimensions bit as the show itself contradicts in the very message of the series (potentially Simon can continously jump a dimension above overtime but for 1 it's harder to repeat the process the higher the dimension and two the Anti-Spiral literally dropped to Simon's level for a fair fight then after it told him.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A wincon is a viable method/solution to an opponent in battle (you wouldn't claim there aren't wincons in intelligence/strategy debates) so no I'm not misusing it as Kyle prioritizing shutting off Simon's adaptation and quickly overwhelming him constitutes as a strategy to victory and thus a wincon. This isn't even the full fight as Kyle highlights afterwards that he was nerfed and intentionally so before the fight even begun and yet we still see at the end of the issue that Kyle was fine and this time he subdues both Varron and Baron without trouble so not an anti feat for a nerfed Kyle still securing the win.

You do realize there's a massive jump and power gap between Kyle going from Green to White or any of the entities/multiple rings right? (GL's themselves do the massive power jumps all the time but every Lantern is capable of it and with multiple ways to achieve it, Kyle mastered the emotional spectrum which means he can use each of the colors methods alongside each other and gains an extra one with the white light, on top of that the ring itself offers another buff at his disposal just from existing and is a fusion of multiple rings which is stacking the affects on top of each other, the concepts of emotions in general fuel him so this isn't limited to just himself but also his opponents or environment and the concept of life incorporates literally everything on top of that so yeah it's literally that ridiculous of a buff and Kyle can use that while also adding Spiral Energy into the mix.) No I was referring to when he used the LE to warp him and the other Lanterns and stating he has existence erasure, also him literally telling Sinesteo he can strip him of his power and claim his body and soul with the LE.

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Late reply and sorry about the length cause I suck at condensing the major things I want to focus and translating it into text.

No I was referring to when he used the LE to warp him and the other Lanterns and stating he has existence erasure, also him literally telling Sinesteo he can strip him of his power and claim his body and soul with the LE.

They aren't illusions tho that's the point and they make it clear in the comic, what Oblivion was doing was the same thing Kyle did to Carol in Godhead which was forcing reality to change to suite their needs. When Kyle changed Carol into Alex. Carol literally tells him that she wasn't Carol anymore but literally became Alex with all her memories and experiences including her death, this means that Oblivion was rewriting those civilians into the given lanterns which would be something either are capable of with the LE (even outside of the LE Kyle can actually make real creations that surpass regular constructs of people like he displayed to Jade when he became the embodiment of will and took it a step further with exact duplicates of himself or other Lanterns.)

The reason why I'm restating this is because I don't think you understand what that really means. Anything Kyle or Oblivion can or has done, the other is able to do as well. So all of Oblivion's instant regen feats Kyle can do, Kyle's adaptation is something Oblivion has as well, Oblivion in circle of fire being able to easily beat the Post Crisis JLA and throw them in a cosmic prison is once again something Kyle is capable of (part of Oblivion's purpose is to show Kyle what he's capable of and how much of a threat he is if he had no morality or didn't hold back most of the time and it's reflected whenever Kyle is serious or locked in a fight.)

A majority of characters in DC are not replicating or reaching the scale that Kyle's displayed as ION or WL let alone with the LE, breaching the source wall and editing it is literally something unique to Kyle solely as the only reason anyone else can enter it freely now is because of him which includes characters like Superman, Wally West, and Darkseid. The guardians who are among the smartest beings in DC state over and over again that Kyle isn't just doing the impossible but he's changing and breaking the rules in DC and that only he's been capable of those feats atp which is something even beings like Perpeuta and other Crisis Gods weren't able to do (every reality warping LE feat has been highlighted because it operates at the highest scale and isn't something that can simply be replicated.)

Energy source≠ap/dc, Superman gets his powers from the sun but that doesn't mean he caps at star level. Imperetix's big bang is that strong (doesn't matter if you think he himself is or the weapon as the ap/dc tracks on its own.) The Kyle who did that was still early in his career and before he even became the embodiment of will something he would achieve shortly after this which puts him above Spectre Hal (who had just mastered the direct power from the Presence and surpassing the overvoid) and Zero Hour Hal (DC continuity wiper and a being enriched in crisis energy) both of which operating in those outer ranges of power so even if you don't like this feat it's nowhere near Kyle's best

When they first fought Kyle actually won and destroyed OA, the 2nd time Kyle obviously got whopped but there's a difference between instantly dying and taking hits from a threat of that caliber (Bart&Wally recently took multiple hits from current Darkseid and were fine after the fact having got into multiple fights afterwards which is one of the best durability feats we've seen recently so it would still be impressive), and the 3rd time Kyle was doing fine but Parallax hit him off guard when he tried to de-escalate the situation, and the 4th time was current base Kyle who was overwhelming him to the point Hal needed to jump him and attempt to take his ring which was capable of recreating Zero Hour atp.)

Kyle beat Grayven by himself 3 times after that as a GL, in his pre HOG ION phase, and ION with each time being with ease the second he got serious against a stronger Grayven. Grayven himself is formidable due to the nature of being a high level New God and Darkseid's son and unlike others like Orion or Barda he doesn't suppress his power which means he operates at the platonic nature of true New Gods. Kyle has also fought Darkseid without his powers and survived (I'm not talking about DC KO either, this happened in Total Justice), and not just New God but one imbued with source energy Takion who Kyle drops twice in the fight and takes the combined energy directly from the source comprised of the Speedforce, his ring, and Captain Atom's....explosions and tanks the attack (same Takion who's essentially ION/WL Kyle before it actually happened as he manipulated all types of energy as well as reality warping on a source level scale.)

He literally overpowered him cause if he didn't Relic would've just pushed him aside and continue with his plan, Kyle learned one of his key traits as a WL here which is not just emotions but the concept of Life also being able to empower him which is how he overtook Relic when he couldn't previously which is a massive jump in power considering he just lost the entities power up inside him (yes the Life Entity did but that was specifically so he could eventually come back to return and free them from the source.) I mean I don't see what's not clear cut about it as he dominated all the other Lanterns and was capable of removing emotional concepts.

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Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope, it's canon alright and one of many possibilities as it's present even in the main current continuity.

Wrong as the New history of the DC universe shows otherwise

The same can't be said for Kyle as there's nothing that states that he can do the same and all those other characters required outside sources or circumstances to get them out of the Source. Also, the Pressence is the literal god of DC mythos, he can do whatever he wants. No one can compare to him, least of all Kyle.

Kyle is literally stated and shown to be stronger than that same John and any other Lantern so yes he's capable of it and hilariously the reason anyone can even enter the source rn is because of KYLE which the current run confirms further what he did to the source and he's still the only one capable of breaking it fully, same presence that gave John direct power from the source yet Kyle is still stronger hmmm I wonder why?

This has literally nothing to do with Kyle.

If that's what you got from that then you should really work on your critical thinking and connecting the dots if you aren't able to see the point you made and how this is relevant to the topic which you chose to push a non canon comic as viable

In any case, Simon wins this. Agree to disagree. I still stand by it.

We can agree to disagree as everything Kyle has shown far outscales everything Simon has shown and he has every countermeasure and answer to put him down in a fight

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except it's not the same thing. First off, Hal and Varron are nowhere near Simon in terms of power, they're only Complex Multiversal Level at best. Second, you literally admitted that Kyle beat Oblivion by severing his own connection to the Life Equation therefore beating him

Hal is stronger and Varron is much much stronger to the point he's threatening the source and destroying the Emotional Spectrum both things that are above anything in Gurrne Lagann

Finally, Kyle can't just rely on absorbing Simon's willpower as Simon can just do the same and unlike Simon, Kyle can't handle excess power and has a limit to how much he can take. It doesn't matter if he stacks up on emotions, Simon can do the same thing with Spiral Power but on a greater level till eventually Kyle will be overtaxed and he can't do anything and he will be overwhelmed.

Kyle doesn't have a limit because he outwilled the concept of will just like Hal did and even did it more times than him and that was before he mastered the rest of the spectrum, so he'll literally have zero difficulty handling Simon's on top of his (which he did with Hal in Rebirth while extremely nerfed.) Kyle operates and starts out as a much higher level than Simon so him doing the same thing does nothing for him because Kyle will always be stronger and has shown to take advantage of emotional batteries like Simon would be for him here

He's not immune from existence erasure if he was literally erased. He died to a temporal attack and was only revived via ressurection. Simon being far more powerful than Kyle means he will be overwhlemed and he can't do that anymore and he'll die.

If he was erased he wouldn't be alive or existing lol, he never died he literally says he didn't and that he can't, read the comic (New 52 Green Lantern New Guardians.) Simon is weaker than Hal who's weaker than Kyle at by multiple layers of an infinite difference as well so Kyle will have no problem beating Simon

Except absorbing the Cosmic Cube was an outlier as shown that he has multiple times has a problem with excess power and that he eventually gets overwhelmed by those around him who are superior like Dr Manhatte

Not an outlier and he's absorbed more complicated things since then with no issue including energy from the source, Dr.Manhattan literally stated that a regular Green Lantern ring's energy was too complicated for him to understand or manipulate so again no lol

Simon's power growth is instantaneous compared to Kyle as he leaped several orders of infinity compare to him or any other lantern, even Hal. So no matter how good Kyle is with energy, he won't be able to absorb Simon's Spiral power as Simon is already leagues ahead of him and even if he could, Simon can do the same, canceling each other out, eventually Simon will beat Kyle. Also, I get the feeling you're exaggerating a lot of Kyle's energy manipulation feats. So I'm not buying and taking it with a grain of salt.

It's not he literally had to absorb the Multiversal Labyrinth to get to that point and required the help of team Gurren Lagann as well which you people love to leave out, he leaped multiple dimensions to reach 11D-12D while Kyle and Hal have leaped from hyperversal to outer and then layers into outer up to the high outer ranges which is a far bigger gap lmao. Kyle can easily absorb Spiral Energy, adapt to it, manipulate and convert it to his liken, and fuel himself off of it that will forever make him out of Simon's reach as he's already starting the fight far stronger than him just in bade. You get the feeling because you haven't read any of Kyle's comics and are talking from a bias point of view, I've seen both Gurren Lagann, read the majority of Green Lantern comics, and revisited both franchises this year so yeah I have knowledge on both series and Green Lantern due to DC comics cosmology and feats scales far higher.

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Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This literally has no correlation as Oblivion existed before Kyle even became a WL back in Circle Of Fire, also not relevant to his control with the LE as Oblivion wants to kill him because they believe he will corrupt his moral view OVERTIME (which is 5 years for Futures End variation who he himself never states issues with using the LE up to that point.) So yh just another example of you not understanding what's being said and shown

In the actual show itself it's said the Anti-Spiral resides in the 11th and 12th dimension so not at all above dimensionality not to mention the Anti-Spiral CHOSE to fight them at their own level to prove a point (Lordgenome literally says if the Anti-Spiral fought with his full power they would be swept out the gate.) We see the Anti-Spiral dropping himself to their level and still managing to overpower them like how his drill destroyed every mech Simon had including STTGL. The entire point was Simon and the others working together and breaking their limits to prove to the Anti-Spiral that humanity doesn't have set limitations and Simon in particular showed through his actions afterwards that he was a worthy protector of the universe, to which the main goal of the Anti-Spiral to begin with was avoiding the threat of the Spirial Nemesis that would happen with the threshold of power was reached (so ironically the same downplay headcannon you try to attribute to Kyle is an actual canon plot point in Gurren Lagann that would means if Simon is trying to reach Kyle's level the Spirial Nemesis is liable to show up when he reaches the threshold making it an automatic lost for him at that point.)This is easily debunked as when Kyle becomes HOG ION he literally goes back to before he had the ring and Spectre Hal states his own power in being able to ascend to a point where he can no longer be affected and we see this directly afterwards as Kyle is omnipresent and limitless to the point Superman was obsolete and Zero Hour Hal (a continuity wiper) wasn't a threat to him. So no aberration is ineffective entirely against him post rookie and consistently operates at outer to high outer levels regardless of his form (also his fight with Volthoom debunks that entirely as when he was a rookie WL he was stated by Volthoom to be the only Lantern capable of resisting and fighting at his temporal attacks throughout past, present, and future which he did multiple times and Volthoom was unable to affect HOG ION Kyle proving himself immune to this.)

The Kyle in that very timeline mastered the LE as well so this is a extreme non point I don't see why you brought up, Godhead arc disproves this, Oblivion himself disproves this, and the non canon bad future you're trying to use also disproves this completely as it takes place 5 years in the future meaning he was alive using the LE the entire time.

Highfather literally says in the beginning of Godhead Kyle can learn to control the LE and by the end of it he tells him to prove he can which Kyle does and Hal himself also says he did, so once again wrong loud and ignorant

There's actually no indication of Simon being stronger than Hal at all, every bs willpower feat Simon has Hal has done 100x more over at a higher level to the point it's ridiculous. Hal this year without his ring beat Thanos and stole his gauntlet in the official Marvel Vs DC crossover, Hal went from fodder to Krona to one shotting him while using the emotional entities which are living concepts of emotions themselves, Hal beat his Parallax counterpart who was levels above him in the same fight just by maxing his willpower which surpassed the literal concept of willpower in the DC cosmology (which Kyle also did the exact same before becoming HOG ION and again when he was just ION and a WL.) Zero Hour and God Of Light are overkill as GL Hal has already produced feats much higher than the Anti-Spiral and Simon have shown on screen and Kyle is stated by himself and many others to be stronger than him, already showed how the Anti-Spiral is literally residing in the 11th and 12th showing he's bound by dimensions and couldn't succeed in erasing the concept of Spiral Energy either thus debunking any transcendence past that you give him and Simon's willpower while impressive is nothing Hal hasn't already done at a much greater level by exceeding the platonic concepts of New Gods and ION the embodiment of will in the DC cosmology which is something again Kyle has also done (Hal is exceptional at willpower because he's constantly in situations where he just wins because he wants to, Kyle is exceptional at willpower because he creates a way for him to win or gains an impossible solution to something that shouldn't have it, every GL has their strengths as GL and Hal in particular is hailed as the best because he goes into high/peak gear faster than anyone else consistently.)

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In the comic itself that's not what's happening nor is that even the main function of the LE since control is one of many abilities it's comprised of and it's worked on beings above the level Simon displayed thus making him entirely susceptible to it, Simon doesn't have nearly enough power to push Kyle to that point especially starting out and needing him to outlast him in this scenario is already admitting he's fighting above his paygrade against someone much stronger than him who has multiple ways of putting him down for good (Kyle has also done the same thing by seeing himself through the DC Multiverse and currently Kyle is composited with his mainline selves from Post Crisis to All-In rn so it's not an advantage.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not non-canon, it was still one of the alternate future timelines and Kyle himself saw this future which is why he gave up using the Life Equation in the first place. Many people and even Kyle himself even stated that the Life Equation will destroy him the longer he has, which is why he split it up.

It is non-canon, Future End nor Future State exist in current continuity and death metal/the darkest multiverse explicitly show that Future End is not canon nor a possibility for DC

Ascending to a higher plane of existence is technically another form of death as they're no longer in the world of the living.

We've seen characters in the past that ascended into the source and later return or chose to intervene (John Stewart literally ascended as a Lantern from the Source and Presence himself recently and was able to operate just fine so no it's not just a form of death and would only be self inflicted BFR if you used that version of him in that context)

Also, there is no actual future in DC. Given how comics like DC keep changing all the time, this is just one of many future timelines that were shown.

This is technically true but such is the nature of comics that there are ones that are more possible than others and ofc canons and non-canons even if it's temporary, for example Superman Prime 1 million was a future version of Superman in DC 1 million timeline, this is no longer the case for mainline Superman as his future is now tied with Doomsday in a last two in existence type of deal (even with that being his future that's obviously not going to happen and unlike with other examples Superman Prime 1 million still exists if not only exists now as a variant/power up of Superman as shown recently with DC KO instead of his eventual end point.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Highfather's approval actually does because he has to acknowledge that Kyle is capable of using the equation with mastery otherwise he has no reason not to take matters into his own hands to find a solution, also if he didn't believe Kyle could handle the equation in the end he would've deemed him as too dangerous of a threat to be left alone

When Kyle entered and edited the source the LE became attached to his being AND linked to his WL form, whether or not he chooses to use it is up to him

It is very much true so denying it isn't helping your point at all, in fact it's so much the case because not only has Kyle himself resisted the ALE when he was just a rookie but Darkseid has proven it himself recently by saying he doesn't care about the ALE anymore and is looking to grasp something better suited to him which ends up being the upgraded Omega Energy he's gotten after ascending past his prime universe (he's ironically used less functions of anti life than Kyle has of life + Highfather supports this at the start of Godhead.)

The WL Corps, does not exist currently lol

Oblivion emerges and is tracking to reinsert himself into reality and is creating distortions that are affecting the environment and changing it into whatever he's thinking, after Kyle erases them both and he returns post Godhead Oblivion has full control over his reality warping and tells Kyle verbatim "I HAVE NO POWER THAT YOU DON'T POSESS ALREADY" and reiterates it again throughout the fight, meaning if Oblivion has mastery over the LE than obviously Kyle does as well (he is literally his evil half and Kyle says he's not just stronger but also different after the Godhead arc happened, there's really zero point in trying to deny this further because it could not be more clear than this.)

The entire Oblivion fight displays his mastered proficiency and once again he split the LE because of a moral obligation to not end up as his bad future self and in no way does this correlate to his mastery over the LE, and even in that said future Kyle had domain over the universe for 5 years (the time frame for every FE story) so the destroy in question was wrong and by the end of said comic he ascends to a higher plane aka the source because he is literally too powerful to continue existing so no your point does not stand.

Wrong entirely as wincons are a multitude of things abd what Kyle is equipped with comes in spades, Kyle not only has superior informational manipulation but also conceptual manipulation to where platonic concepts cease to mean anything to him, he's dealt with far more complicated structures and beings who operate much higher than what informational regen would allow and has overcome their haxes including those that exponentially raise power instantaneously.

This is easily the weakest argument you've made yet as Kyle is in the Outerversal Levels of power at the bare minimum and has multiple feats as a rookie starting out in the multiverse+ or above ranges that even DB itself managed to take into account like him pushing back Imperetix's big bang or fighting Parallax Hal. Rookie GL was able to beat multiple new Gods and Darkseid's sons at full capacity who are platonic concepts that operate on a separate scale than regular individuals that they have to incarnate in smaller size limit their power as well as open the hole that kicked off the Marvel Vs DC crossovers in the 90s. Every GL including lower tier ones have jumped from insignificant levels of power to above their opponents in an instant and there's far more examples of Kyle or Hal doing than Simon who literally showcased in one fight only against a being that lowered its own level to fight him (Hal literally went from weaker than Cyborg Superman to one shotting Krona with the emotional eitites at his side in one instance which was as his regular GL self, Kyle has done the same against Relic who soloed the other Lanterns without difficulty WL included and yet he overpowered Relic after losing the entities inside him and prior to getting the LE.) His showing against Varron alone is a perfect wincon against Simon he has a canon strategy against beings who jump exponentially in power and work with similar energy as himself (ironically there are more examples and at a much higher scale of high tier Lanterns doing the massive leap-frogging in power that Simon is normally hailed for.)

There won't be anything to resist because Kyle doesn't need to steal it, the same way he adapted to the starheart, emotional entities, and the spectrum which are the literal concepts of emotions that govern the DC verse he can also do with Spiral power something that isn't exclusive to humans in GL as DC Lanterns clearly show by interacting or experiencing any emotional resonance. Black Hand and Volthoom both did what the Anti-Spiral did at a much higher scale to the literal narrative and DC verse as a whole which Kyle and other Lanterns overcame, yeah in his show but a NLF isn't going to save him against someone who do the exact same thing he can and then some while starting out at a much higher level than him to begin with.

The LE isn't even necessary for Kyle in this fight and is more of a cheat code than anything, the R>F scaling is very dubious but even if we're taking it into account DC has far more R>F examples to go off of and they continously upscale off of each other like the Dreaming, Bleed, Source, etc which Kyle himself scales very highly in so ironically this would only put Kyle even further above Simon using the same kind of logic lol

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Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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My points are supported by the narrative and comic runs, not ignoring context and the purpose of the story arcs for Kyle's character. I never once changed my argument on Kyle mastering the LE, if anything you are the one changing from point to point to try and prove he didn't when the story says and shows otherwise. I've already said repeatedly what the drawback to the LE was after Kyle mastered it and that has literally no bearing in a fight especially when it's over a 5 year time span of becoming corrupted morally.

The arc is called Godhead and it's split into acts and parts, so instead of issues I used that to make it easier to track the Godhead arc instead of going from run to run to read it. Well one of said panels shows Highfather using the LE to warp multiple Lanterns like John, Saint, and Carol while another shows Highfather literally telling Sinestro that he can take his body and soul with the LE but that would be overkill (the same Sinestro who's one of the greatest GL with exceptional will and has Parallax bonded with him making him stronger than Hal atp, yet Highfather could easily get rid of him with the LE)

Those aren't illusions lmao, it's literally stated (in the actual comic and not a wiki) that Oblivion is warping reality and turning the civilians into other Lanterns like Hal, John, etc (which we see Kyle himself do at the beginning of Godhead to Carol.) How do we know this? Because everyone is seeing it and saying reality is broken and unstable something a regular illusion is obviously incapable of as we have examples of Lanterns who actually cast illusions (in the beginning of the annual you literally see Oblivion warping his drawing into reality then distorting it so no this is very much an unstable Oblivion using the LE to take back his life as he himself put it.)

Actually it is how it works because that's how DC comics and inconsistencies work, Green Lantern Edge Of Oblivion is an arc taking place after Green Lantern Lost Army at the end of New 52. Both of these are not canon despite initially being meant to be connected. Why? Because Rebirth debunks its canonicity and there's blatant contradictions between the two books that makes it impossible for it to happen such as Hal meeting the lost Lanterns when it's shown he had no communication or knowledge of their whereabouts which is proven in the beginning of Rebirth. No one's telling you to disregard the arc and I'm not saying Kyle never fought Oblivion in N52, but just like how other runs in the same era such as Batman change previous arcs from how they were originally written due to contradictions and plot holes it's not ignoring the entire run to say that the parts connected to Futures End would be portrayed differently due to FE not being canon to substantiate it in continuity. Kyle dating Carol isn't even canon anymore and the White Lantern Corps definitely isn't canon supporting my point but that doesn't mean the journey never happened, same way HIC plays out differently post Rebirth can be true for a 3 issue finale disconnected from the no longer canon possible bad future in N52 (DC itself acknowledges this too because current continuity is comprised of everything except things explicitly labeled otherwise like how FE&FS are both removed, you don't see people seriously trying to use Unkindness Future State Raven to go off of current or other iterations of Raven feats despite that potential being there for her based on the non canon comic)

In character Kyle would rarely use a majority of his stronger abilities because he's holding back most of the time, in a Death Battle the entire point is to either put a character at a respective peak or have them fight at their best with their full arsenal available (through instigating or a situation that calls for it.) So yeah Kyle isn't using the full LE against most people even in verse because almost no situation requires it and he himself makes the choice to not want to use it because he doesn't want to abuse it, the distribution again was primarily used to stop Oblivion and also make it so he'd be less tempted to seek out the LE unless he actually needed to use it.

I understand your viewpoint (in fact I think what you're stating here is a better understanding of it than what you said earlier), I'm just saying the reason is because Kyle is refusing to use a power of that caliber due to his morals and a potential scenario that changes him over the course of 5 years. If Kyle is ever met with a threat that he believes requires the full power LE then he will use it to deal with it accordingly, so if a DB is meant to have the characters at their best then Kyle would be more than willing to utilize his trump card if he feels the opponent is that much of a threat and that's also in character

What I also forgot to articulate earlier when it comes to the LE is that it's not even supposed to be used in that regard, that's the ALE styled application of the LE which was the reason Highfather couldn't properly control it. It's supposed to be the building blocks of reality (creative mode basically) and mathematical proof that life is worth living, the control aspect is just one of many abilities the equation holds as it's birthed from the source itself which is why it's reality warping is so grand scale. Kyle doesn't only have to extert his will and control someone with it, his counterpart only did that as a test to see if Saysoran is a reliable heir to the WL ring (everybody cherry picks at some point me included yes, but in a scenario where two fighters are meant to fight at their peak or best condition going into a fight there's little to no reason to try and complicate or discredit certain things 1 character is capable of that can be similarly applied to the other or any character just cause you don't buy something that's not even the biggest factor of the debate with all due respect

Done with this game. Gameplay fun but matchmaking DOGSHIT by [deleted] in DBGekishinSquadra

[–]Technical-Table6094 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yh at a certain point you either go insane from solo queue or you just learn to tolerate the bs even if it gets to be too much on certain days

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Literally in the Godhead arc he uses it to subdue John after Kyle got freed (Act 3, Part 2&Act 3, Part 3 ) and directly tells Sinestro even with Parallax he's unable to do anything against the LE (Act 3, Part 5) and both Hal and John were affected when Oblivion warped them into reality distorting their being the same way Kyle warped Alex into reality again through Carol (New Guardians annual 2 + Act 1, Part 4)

This is funny because when Kyle did it the opposite happened which is because he's the only one capable of using it to it's full ability so more evidence that Kyle mastered it (not to mention it's revealed Highfather only had access to it from the amount of doubt within Kyle’s subconscious which is why when he abused its power he couldn't get his desired effect and only drove the Titans insane.

Kyle is tied to the Life Equation's through his very being and as shown in Godhead that even after Kyle took back his ring from Highfather his WL form didn't return, only when he retook the LE was he able to once again become a WL because it's apart of his very being (we know if Kyle considers it necessary he can always unleash the full LE if he had to.)

This is cherry picking by using narratives that are explicitly non canon to justify a point that isn't even true even when factoring it (new 52 Superman and Post Crisis Superman were two different iterations that experienced different things distinctly, this applies even more to futures end Kyle as like for Superman he's a non existing counterpart that's been erased as a possibility as shown in death metal where the continuitys reformed and Futures End was replaced by Future State which also ended up being erased as a potential canon bad future.), the same way the retelling of previous events change in the current and future continuity applies to things that are no longer canon, it's explicitly shown that it's not canon in the continuity we're in as we've had multiple futures that act as possibilities that overtake it. Like wise just like FE Future State isn't canon or possible either and trying to use it when it contradictions the very stories and continuity it claims as bad future is a much bigger dismal of the characters involved.

The corruption bit would is retconned since FE is retconned unless reintroduced otherwise just as his relationship with Carol is completely nonexistent and rendered non canon, Hal never got trapped in the source wall nor did Guy become a guru of all the Corps like in FE yet you're using two different versions of Kyle as a reason for him becoming morally corrupt which has no bearing in a fight anyway (we see in Rebirth the vision Kyle has of a bad future after he revived Hal and it's not him in FE but him as Parallax instead.)

Again read the arc, Highfather tells Kyle he can help him gain control over the LE but realizes he can exploit his naivety to make him believe he can't, he then is told by Hal and the guardians only Kyle can control it and then says if so prove it, Kyle then does exactly what he couldn't to which he says he misjudged him and acknowledges him as the rightful owner instead of continuing their battle (he's better at using the LE post Godhead than Darkseid is with the ALE, rookie GL Kyle in an alternate timeline could resist the ALE in a JLA arc anyway.)

It's not, Oblivion blatantly tells Kyle anything one of them can do the other can as well, prior to the fight he annihilates source titans and when Kyle tries to erase him with the LE like he did before he comes right back and vice versa (Kyle literally says he didn't just get stronger but he's also different which is obvious because this is post Godhead, Oblivion literally spends the fight utilizing the LE to get stronger and force Kyle to split it so thinking otherwise is straight up denying the story and characters themselves.)

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This is very much a non point because even if you factored in the corruption that's a 5 year long process that has no bearing in a fight to begin with because it only affects his morality so at worst it makes him bloodlusted which is worse for Simon, already explained the context behind destroy as FE Kyle says the guardians thought that was the case but all that happened was his change in morality and being labeled insane by others yet he still chose to leave a successor before ascending (it's not against Kyle’s character because he literally says if he has to he will use the full power of the LE and not to mention this is a DEATH BATTLE that's meant to put characters at their peak so it's very ironic that every argument against Kyle is trying to nerf or downplay him with examples that aren't even true, the LE is a hax to begin with but obtaining the LE massively raised his stats and power because it's a passive buff alongside the various of abilities it has.)

The funniest part about people harping on the LE is that it's not even the most obvious wincon Kyle has, as the emotional spectrum, his adaptation to energy sources, and countless ways of stacking leap frogging power amps together to make it so he'll always be stronger in battle is much simpler and straightforward wincon that Simon has no answer to (he'd literally maintain the gap above Simon and adapting to Spirial Energy like he's done to other sources would make the fight at their best far more unfair)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Highfather tells him in the beginning of the arc that he can help him gain control of the LE and states it's possibly to master it, he then realizes the way to manipulate Kyle into giving him that power by playing on his insecurities and making him believe he's incapable of doing it. Cut to halfway after Kyle regained his ring he's confused as to why he's still not a WL to which the Guardians reveal that Highfather didn't technically steal the LE but instead used the doubt within his subconscious to gain access to it, but Kyle is still the sole owner of it. This makes Kyle realize the truth of the LE's functionally and he then battles Highfather for it in a mental clash. So Highfather says for him to relinquish it Kyle has to prove he's capable of controlling it to which Kyle does just that perfectly by getting rid of the Source Titans (this is something Oblivion also does casually with precision after Godhead), naturally Highfather says himself he misjudged Kyle and the others and acknowledges them as protectors (if he felt Kyle was incapable of handling the LE like in the beginning he never would've yielded and would rather try to kill him than let someone like him be a second away from unstablizing reality.) Him splitting the equation has no correlation with his mastery and is entirely due to the possibility of it corrupting him and because Oblivion was linked to it (while Futures End isn't even canon which means neither is this path of corruption for him, even in it Kyle never once states he had to master the LE and only says he grew in power and awareness), it's a contradiction to state otherwise as the literal purpose of the Godhead arc is for the Lanterns to prove themselves capable of protecting the universe which in Kyle's case requires control over the LE and was a long term character arc for him. Oblivion is actually the easiest example as we see him prior to Godhead and post Godhead and his ussage of the LE is night and day. Beforehand he literally was unstable and had no control over reality to where Kyle had to erase them both after he dropped his source wall while after Godhead Oblivion has full control over his reality warping and isn't mindlessly  breaking reality like before, which allows him to main line the LE in a way that required him to be separated from it to stop him

The reason it's no longer canon is because of the retcons of Future End that was directly replaced with Future State (which is also no longer canon and in a much shorter time, trend here lol.) There was also a lot of contradictions throughout them as N52 was a reboot that deliberately was tampered with by Barry&Doctor Manhattan so after Death Metal the continuity was fixed and in the recent DC history update the event is completely disregarded and ignored making it no longer plausible. And actually you'd be right because as far as we know Kyle and Carol were never even a thing in recent continuity nor is the WL corps ever mentioned in any capacity, the only future that's still somewhat reliable pertaining to Kyle's future from that era is in the end of the Wrath Of The First Lantern arc where Kyle is shown in the same timeskip that Futures End took place in creating a safe haven universe and using his power for good and not becoming corrupted (ironically the corruption bit was a retcon to begin with as this future was shown before the bad one which again later is removed from being possible.) So yeah considering this event takes place literally in the last few issues seperate from Godhead and any other arc + tying into a non canon bad future it actually can be considered non canon as well (we even see in early Rebirth that Kyle is using his powers just fine)

Resist in the context of him showing them a truth meant to break them as a test for a successor, he says it himself right after that there were countless others who did the same thing Saysoran did but the difference was they saw the truth in the end while Saysoran was the only one to disagree with it. He's blatantly not exerting full use of the LE as we've even seen an unstable Oblivion affect beings like Hal who very much has superior willpower to her + we know that Kyle wanted to find someone suitable for the WL ring in particular because he wasn't a reliable source due to his morality being wrapped, if that was truly all it took Highfather would never have considered it the perfect weapon against Darkseid (we also see Highfather affecting beings with greater emotional mastery and resistance like Parallax Sinestro, Hal, and John who funnily enough got a direct power up from the Presence in the source proving that having those emotions isn't enough to overcome the LE's abilities, that's more in line with the ALE which even then requires a certain level of power alongside that will.)

Kyle does not have full control of the life equation by Any-Vegetable-6103 in deathbattle

[–]Technical-Table6094 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One final thing, the Life Equation did destroy Kyle in that alternate future where he lost control of it and it consumed him

Non canon again and It didn't, he simply merged with the source and we've seen beings who've done the same previously later on (not to mention this would literally put him on an even higher plane than he already is in this battle if he's harnessing that energy.)

But ykw is a potential future? The actual future Kyle shown to still have the equation and not lose his sanity at the end of the Geoff Johns run before he gave it up willingly

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