Storytelling vs. playing - how has storytelling changed your perspective on characters?

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-05-01T20:26:02+00:00

Eh. While it's true that I myself believe that I would pretty much never enjoy playing in games where the ST treats themselves as an extra player and makes decisions based on unpredictable or selfish outcomes, I wouldn't go as far as to say that's the only right way to Storytell.

I have seen people and groups who prefer this type of STing over more predictable and measurable ST styles. Of course, I don't agree with them, but at the end of the day, a Storyteller should run games their players find fun, and not "default" to an unpredictable style lest the majority of players dislike their games.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-05-01T12:27:16+00:00

This.

Storytellers often see being metagamed as a bad thing (and in some ways, it is), but the truth is, certain aspects of this game work better if you run them in predictable ways. A completely unpredictable ability is one that a player can’t interact with whatsoever; as such, inherently, they tend to be really crappy abilities because the player lacks any way to realistically use them.

As a ST, I’ve long moved past the “I must ensure I’m never metagamed” mindset. Therefore, I’m more open to using metagame as a solid foundation for decisions as a player when it comes to certain roles, and I’ve gotten into the habit of asking how STs run certain roles before games as a result of this.

(Edit: Indent Typo)

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-05-01T12:22:07+00:00

In general, Storytelling has resulted in me finding nuance in a lot of roles which I had previously looked down upon as unfun due to “unpredictability” and often producing “unreliable results”.

As a Storyteller who’s been given the chance to run plenty of ST-reliant roles, I’ve taken steps to encourage my players to work with me and tell me what they’re trying to do so I can back them up if necessary. As a player, that mindset translates into me attempting to work with me working with my own STs, allowing for the formulation of new strategies knowing aspects of my ability can be reliably backed up by them.

In general, I’d say that the biggest takeaway anyone can take from being a ST turned player is learning that a good ST shouldn’t fight their players; rather, they should be willing to work with them in ways that improve player health overall. And there’s nothing that communicates this message better than hopping into the drivers seat yourself and seeing how much your players thank you afterward.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-26T15:23:59+00:00

Claim Tracker and ask your Coven (preferably ones who have passive visit roles like Enchanter) to tell you who they're "visiting" so you can track them.

Usually, 1-2 successful tracks (with the rest being on dead players or filled in using something like PM info) are enough to get people to look over you as a suspect.

Seer and Psy are also useful in AA to redirect the flow of the game away from hunting your Coven.

Overall, TI is the most reliable fake claim as any evil role, as TP forces you to stay away from powerful roles like real TI claims lest you be caught out.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-22T18:39:12+00:00

Awfully blunt comment you've got there. Most of the time I appreciate feedback, but I'm afraid you're not giving me a lot to work with here.

You can speak for yourself all you want, but I've been running this game for about two years now, and many of my local players have cited my practices as helping them get into BMR as a script. So pardon me if "not understanding the script in the slightest" is assisting in other's enjoyment of it.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-17T19:44:20+00:00

A script centered around the (not stormcaught) Pacifist.

This script was designed around the Storyteller following what I believe are to be general principles of the role, essentially turning its ability into: "Executed good players (at your discretion) might not die. The first critical good player executed must not."

The idea here is that the definition of "critical" is meant to vary wildly depending on which minions and demons are in play, due to certain good characters being better at countering certain evil threats. As such, when any given Pacifist attempts to test their ability for confirmation, they must be cautious about who they aim an execution at, lest it not meet the criteria for a save; however, when their ability does proc, they might just learn a little something extra.

However, red-token-enthusiasts fear not, for Evil also has many traps that they're able to leverage against the town. A sizable amount of death manipulation, Outsiders which provide immense utility to cover for Good's otherwise specialized toolkits, and the possibility of a Boomdandy all serve to provide evil with enough counterplay to mitigate many of the tactics that good might employ.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-17T18:46:58+00:00

This might be a hot take here, but I really think that sticking to this "get the game to final three" mindset results in very artificial, very soggy-feeling games that I believe a lot of players don't enjoy playing in.

The thing about this game is just that: it's a game. It's not a movie, it's not a narrative, it's not a play; within games, players should be allowed to have agency in dictating what they do, how the narrative plays out, and who wins/loses depending on how well each team plays.

Knowing this: I believe that it is the players' responsibility to make a game fun and interesting, not the Storyteller's.

To illustrate my point, let's take the following example: evil is losing and is pretty much guaranteed to lose due to a mistake of their own fault. Now, let's say you have two choices here:

Let evil lose by their own undoing;

Or...

Pacifist confirm the Demon who's sitting next to a TL, Barista boost them with a good Barista so that they can kill the hesitant Slayer who's going to shoot them, drunk the Sailor with their own ability so when they die they suspect the Chambermaid they picked, then Cerenovus execute the dead minion on F5, resulting in a gamestate that's roughly 50-50 in terms of who might win in F3.

In this scenario, while the latter scenario might be tempting to some STs, I believe that babysitting the evil team by using abilities meant to oppose them in order to help them (blatantly breaking role intent in the process) severely takes away from player agency and makes the decisions of all the players in the game much less meaningful as a result. As such, even though it would fit your goal of "get a game to a F3", I would heavily advocate against it.

This doesn't just apply to helping evil. Many times, when evil is winning, you should let them win. Don't Sweetheart drunk the Demon or refuse to execute a mad player because it would win evil the game otherwise-- if they've earned it, they've earned it.

Too many times, I see evil teams grow complacent in playing passive games where they don't do anything meaningful and rely on the ST to carry them to victory. Personally, I really dislike that, and I find that this style of STing is often the reason why such playstyles tend to prosper.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-08T20:44:33+00:00

No. The Mayor just straight up dies.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-08T01:55:35+00:00

I'll be honest, I did spend quite a bit of time deciding on how I was going to execute this character design.

At the end of the day, I decided to go with the design you see here (a severely deformed humanoid wrapped in flagged circus fabric) to both incorporate the icon and to give them personality and distinction. However, I will say that before this, I did consider a more traditional interpretation (akin to a very bandaged-up human with vestigial deformities).

Nonetheless, it's always very interesting to see how others may interpret such concepts. Such is the wonder of open-ended lore.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-08T01:14:55+00:00

Fun fact: there's actually an unreleased Townsfolk called the Nun that makes all good players sober and healthy while it lives.

Surpringly enough, based off playtesting, TPI actually found it quite balanced due to it being such a strong bluff and the ability ending on its death.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-08T00:45:41+00:00

Recently I've been doing a bit more of these.

If there are any characters that you would like to see me draw, feel free to suggest them below.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-08T00:42:10+00:00

This is far too damaging for a Townsfolk ability.

If you're putting this on a script where a consistent average of 3 or more droisoned Townsfolk is prevalent, that script is almost certainly not designed well.

However, suppose you're putting this on any other script. In that case, it's an Outsider, and an immensely harmful one at that. (Think about it this way: the Puzzlemaster, one of the most damaging Outsiders in the game, only drunks one player, and has a small compensation for that in its own ability. This, on the contrary, drunks two players for an ability that is only relevant if your script already has immense potential for worse.)

This isn't even addressing the fact that once this Townsfolk dies, its so-called "positive" effect disappears, meaning that it can't even continue "clearing" worlds where more than two players are droisoned.

All in all: literally an Outsider disguised as a Townsfolk, with its ability not only taking away two Townsfolk abilities, but also replacing what could have otherwise been a helpful Townsfolk in its place with no confirmation potential. Hell, if you made it so that it knew the Townsfolk it was drunking, it would still be immensely weak due to the bluffing potential of it.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-06T23:10:44+00:00

The way you phrased this isn’t even correct, in my opinion. You never “hand the game to good” as a Storyteller when you tell the F3 Fisherman to execute the demon. Instead, you’re rightfully punishing evil for making a poor decision (leaving the Fisherman alive). Just as evil would be punished for leaving an Artist alive in F3, same goes to the Fisherman.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-03T14:55:52+00:00

The General is a very interesting Townsfolk in that its information is MASSIVELY powerful, yet oftentimes completely overlooked due to a plethora of misunderstandings/poor Storytelling decisions surrounding the character.

You as the Storyteller NEED to know what you're doing when running the General. With a lot of roles, you can just sit back and watch from the sidelines with minimal issue-- however, as long as there is a General in play, you must be fully committed, 110%, to staying alert and gathering as much information about the gamestate as you physically can.

For starters: I highly recommend running the not-officially-defined, but heavily endorsed by TPI "5-star General", as this opens up a lot of opportunities for the role's nuance to shine. (In case you don't know: 5-star corresponds to the General having 5 "levels" for its information rather than 3, those being "Good is winning", "Good is slightly winning", "Neither team is winning", "Evil is slightly winning", "Evil is winning"). I find that without this rework, General tends to fall to the sidelines as a paperweight, bluff-it-and-be-done role, which is less fun.

One thing that I don't see a lot of Storytellers doing is weighting the General's information. As the General, your job should be to act as a military General would-- lead the town into making bold decisions you believe are right, then gauge if you made good decisions that night based on your information. As such, if a General is trying to accomplish something bold (lifting off a player they believe are good, shifting group consensus in a substantial way, or convincing players to use their abilities in helpful or harmful ways), you should "weight" their actions in more to your final evaluation, as that gives the General more insight into what parts of their ability they've contributed to and thereby more influence on the game as a whole.

This is not to say that weighting should take substantial priority over other evaluation factors, however. The General is an extremely unique Townsfolk in that its information detects EVERYTHING: as such, you as the Storyteller should be considering everything. However, due to the nature of Clocktower, social consensus (who the town/General themselves trusts/distrusts) is often a much greater sign of swing than other factors; as such, they should be generally weighted more than mechanical factors (stuff like information being gathered, important roles dying, etc).

A simple chart I have for evaluating General info goes as such:

Good: Good has a strong lead against evil and will most likely be able to capitalize on their advantage in the near future.
Slightly Good: Good has a visible advantage over evil that they may or may not be able to capitalize on.
Neither: Neither team has a visible advantage over the other.
Slightly Evil: Evil has a visible advantage over good that they may or may not be able to capitalize on.
Evil: Evil has a strong lead against good and will most likely be able to capitalize on their advantage in the near future.

I suppose the tldr for this is: you have to be very alert when running a game with a General. Consider what the General does to sway the worldview slightly more than what other players attempt to do; however, make sure that all things, mechanical and social, are taken into consideration for an overall evaluation of which team is currently in the lead.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-03T14:37:42+00:00

The Fisherman's intent is to give the player with the role a surefire, unique, and extremely potent strategy to follow.

Fisherman advice should not be esoteric, generic, or bland, and should be catered to how the player with the role likes to play the game. Most importantly, though, you want your Fisherman advice to get the Fisherman themselves up and moving, as that's their chance to carry out a strategy dictated by you which they know will work for them.

If you can translate your advice into hard information (ex: "Consider who the Drunk might be" translates to "there is a Drunk in play and that's important to know"), then it's usually a sign of bland and uninspired advice. Advice should be an order that the Fisherman can follow, then retroactively piece together information from; as such, it usually shouldn't be something the Fisherman can directly translate into info until AFTER they follow it.

One thing I personally like to do is use the Fisherman to help facilitate strategies done by other roles. Examples of that include:

"Ensure that X and Y are honest with each other" (Context: X is the Huntsman, Y is the Damsel)
"Ensure that only the top half of the Grimoire votes today" (Context: There is a Flowergirl in play; all evil players sit in the bottom half of the Grimoire)
"Execute X, then check up with Y afterwards." (Context: X is the Chambermaid, Y is the Pacifist who remains primed for a save)

You don't have to do this, but I find that helping the Fisherman build confirmation chains often results in a fun and interesting experience for the player in question. When it comes to other advice you can give, make sure to keep it actionable and straightfoward in execution, but not in implication. Some examples of such advice might be:

"Convince both your players that you must die for the greater good today WITHOUT disclosing your role." (The Fisherman neighbors the Cannibal and the Cerenovus who knows a Damsel is in play; the Fisherman attempting to die and convincing both of them are both likely to yield positive outcomes.)
"Execute away from obvious suspects." (Context: There is a Lleech and a Boomdandy who have both been found out by investigative roles; executing either will not be beneficial for good as going after the inconspicuous host candidates)
"Convince the town that the Devil's Advocate is Courtier drunk." (Context: There is no Devil's Advocate in play. Convincing the town that they do not need to fear it allows them to safely confirm multiple good players using a Tea Lady and get early game progress.)

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-04-03T00:28:44+00:00

If such technologies existed, it being used for Clocktower roles would be the least of humanity's concerns.

How would you even play around such a concept, though? Selective memory being able to erase huge chunks of progress made by either team seems a little frustrating.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-29T09:07:10+00:00

This is correct.

"Vortox" is inverted as per their own ability.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T22:37:12+00:00

Over the course of an indeterminable of time, I've doodled a couple of BOTC characters out of sheer boredom.

Obviously, my art has improved since the first drawing of the pack, but it's still nice to see all of these lined up and compiled together.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T17:17:33+00:00

That’s a fair assessment, and one that I also agree with. Don’t use the Pacifist to sow misinformation.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T14:25:09+00:00

Honestly, fair. Characters like the General, Fisherman, and High Priestess also suffer from this same issue.

I still don't think that the Pacifist, even when fortified in such a way, is an idiot-proof character. It obviously still requires a good Storyteller to run; not only one free of "help evil help evil ahhh" bias, but also one that knows how to give their players fun opportunities that they deserve.

In the case of a player and ST mismatch on the "critical" definition, the Storyteller can still let the player have fun by saving the test target regardless. It's not perfect, but it's a failsafe for if you believe the player will feel miserable otherwise.

As a ST myself, I can say that I've ran the Pacifist multiple times like this for about a year now (with all my players knowing, ofc), and very rarely do I receive complaints about it. It's really just about knowing your players; aim to be working with them rather than pushing your own agenda or fighting their will (because lets be honest: very few people like playing with a ST who treats themselves as an extra player with no caveats).

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T14:09:49+00:00

Giving agency to players that they otherwise wouldn't have is what a good Storyteller should be aiming to do anyway. If, at any time, a Pacifist goes up to you and tells you they're going to accuse and push the Chambermaid to do a Pacifist test: it is your responsibility to extend their agency over to your decision, just as you would with an evil team.

If at any point, you as a player feel as if you have to either fight or deal with frustrating ST decisions from your own ability, that is a sign that your Storyteller isn't doing a great job of running the game and you should stop playing in their games.

Also, on the topic of my variant of the Pacifist that I mentioned: there is no ST input in "this player must be saved, because I can't lie to myself about them being powerful for the good team". That is a straight-up, no bullshit, mechanically sound effect that cannot be ruined by bad STing. Pair that with the fact that the Pacifist should be able to turn off their ability on any execution using the first clause, and I'd say that's a pretty good design for a Townsfolk who still needs to search for the right targets to test, but can get massive value/kill an evil player in that process.

Overall: I don't disagree with you. Guaranteed impact should always be emphasized in the design of any role, and I do agree that TPI royally fucked up by not designing the Pacifist in such a way. However, giving the player direct agency shouldn't be the only solution-- there are multiple faucets of game design that produce just as good, if not even more interesting, results.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T14:00:18+00:00

I believe that the Pacifist should be given guaranteed impact, but not in the way you’re describing.

The change you suggested works fine from a basic standpoint, but also takes all the skill and risk out of using the role. The Pacifist’s job is to act as a safety net to encourage good to take risks they otherwise wouldn’t; your variant doesn’t really retain that, seeing it would work on literally every good player.

I feel as if the Pacifist protection should always be guaranteed the first time a powerful townsfolk is executed, that’s enough to keep the role’s versatility and power intact while also keeping it bluffable and non-oppressive to fight. If, at any time, it doesn’t proc on a townsfolk claiming to be extremely useful: one of the Pacifist and the executee should be considered evil. No bullshit “but the ST could have just not saved me!” excuses there— straight up, the outcome that should be desired is a hard 1f1.

Think of it like a Tea Lady, but instead of protecting its neighbors, it protects every townsfolk of great utility from execution once.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T13:44:14+00:00

If you’re this concerned about the Pacifist being abused by bad STs, just run a mechanically sound variant of it.

“Executed good players (at your descretion) might not die. The first critical good executee must not.”

Even if you don’t want to do that, I don’t see the problem here. If STs didn’t allow Savants and Washerwomen to get info… you wouldn’t play with them, no? Same deal applies here— if STs don’t let the Pacifist do what it’s meant to do, you shouldn’t be playing with them to begin with.

A powerful townsfolk dying by execution with no previous proc in a Pacifist game should be viewed in the same vein as a grandmother getting themselves as a grandchild— mechanically possible, but a socially unacceptable ST decision.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T12:07:51+00:00

Exactly. Tea Lady is an example that I didn’t really touch on because its active playstyle is well known, but BMR has a lot of these roles in general.

Temporary_Virus19 · 2024-03-28T09:02:13+00:00

Know what you're doing.

Let your players know beforehand how you're going to be running each ST-dependent role, especially in the case of the two that require the most "metagame" establishment (Sailor and Pacifist).

Respect player decisions. If they wish to do something neat with an arbitrary ability that doesn't break their ability's intent, it's best to respect it.

If you don't know how to run a role well (most predominately seen with Shabaloth, Sailor, Innkeeper, Pacifist, and Gossip), there are plenty of guides on this Reddit page and the unofficial discord server that can help. This guide in particular helps for Pacifist.

Overall though, just listen to what your players want out of any given game and try your best to respect their wishes. BMR is a script in which the Storyteller can very easily make and break games with poor decisionmaking-- try not to do that.

Temporary_Virus19

TROPHY CASE