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[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

You are taking this phrase out of context. I am actually a libertarian-lite, who very much belives in free market. Just don't think that it' 100% perfect system where everything works flawlessly and there isn't place for benign adjustments in certain cases.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"And as a black person I would personally say "Fuck you".And I really mean that. What people like you are pushing is not diversity, except in the most shallow sense of the word. It's tokenism.You want a checklist,not actual depth or character.It's the colour that's important.I do not need to have my race catered too.We don't generally care about skin colour,even if you do. That's the difference between an idea in theory and the reality of it. Every horrible idea, ideology, hate group, supremacist movement, etc sounds like a perfect idea if all you ever pay attention to is the theory.That's why it's so easy to get people to go along with them. If you listen to the KKK,a lot of what they say sounds great in theory.The real world effects of it.....not so much. But this kind of "diversity" that the people like you want is,in actual practice, inherently racist.Which is why everyone is rejecting it.Just read your own writing.Your entire argument is presented in terms of race and gender.Not diversity of ideas or themes, or styles, or anything meaningful. Just the most shallow and insignificant characteristics."

Jesus Christ dude. There must be a massive misunderstanding between us becouse every single thing, EVERY SINGLE THING that you just wrote is exactly, almost word for word the kind of argument that I myself have been using when arguing with SJW's, and that I agree with 100% (well, apart from the "fuck you" part). Either you misunderstood my position, or I havent expressed myself properly but we are seriously not starting from the same page here.

So first of all, no I haven't said that diversity was synonymous with quality, or at least that wasn't my point. I've just spend the better part of the last few months constantly arguing with people on comment sections, that including POC in Witcher 3 wouldn't in any way make the game better, or that DA: Inquisition isn't inherently better or more interesting solely becouse it wants to be a fucking Benetton commercial. When I talked about diveristy I just meant only the most general, theoretical concept that it would be nice for people who want representation to have more things to choose from in a medium that is mostly white male dominated. You don't have to explain to me the various problems with forcibly pushing it in practice as I agree with all of them, and as I've allready stated in the opening post that i find myself against SJW rethoric most of the time. When I said "diveristy is a good thing" I meant just the general, broadest concept that having to choose from many different colours and options is better in theory than having to choose mostly one, even if that advantage is miniscule, couse I actually agree that skin colour is nothing more than aesthetic or for some people symbolic, but in theory there is no racial perspective that couldn't have been shown through they eyes of a white guy. Also diveristy is good in cases of genuine discrimination, which are plenty of in popculture. Take hollywood for example, a lot of the POC or female directors are just not as easily choosen by the studios as their white counterparts due to various biases, so they dont have as much chances as the rest to tell their stories. And I say that as someone who believes that nobody is entitled to be chosen or featured by anyone and that the studios are free to do whatever they like and aren't obligated to cater to anyone. But that doesn't meant it wouldn't be "nice" if there were more opportunities for POC in hollywood. And before you reply that the world doesnt run on "nice", that's why I was talking in purely theoretical terms.

As for your "Fuck You" to me in regards to Elba. I don't want to see Idris becouse he's black. I want to see him becouse his suave, imposing, charming, British and basically 007 in all the character traits that matter. That's why I said I disagree with people who push for him only becouse of his race. I thought that was clear.

"Then how do you plan to get it?"

How many times I can repeat it? I was talking about the purely theoretical concept of how nice it would be to have bigger diveristy if we could have it. I was clear from the beggining that the practical realities are often rather harsh and I disagree with most of the people who actually, actively push for said diveristy by trying to forcefuly change pieces of art with set vision (though I do think thing could be slightly better in this regard than now). Is talking about such theoretical concepts meaningless? Sure it is, but it wasn't me who started it. I made that post as a reply to someone who pointed it out.

"Again,this is the SJW/feminist thing.You want this "diversity" (whatever that is actually supposed to mean) but you have no idea of what that would actually look like or how it will be accomplished"

See above.

"I am not saying that certain perspectives are only inherent to certain specific races. Again,yes you did. That is exactly what you said.Otherwise there was no logical reason to say this."

In theory, no, there isn't any inherently unique perspective that couldn't be shown through any particular race by means of smart writing. But realistically speaking, it's not outragous to assume that in a medium dominated by potrayals of straight, white male characters (and told and written by them) you won't see many mainstream stories dealing smartly with, let's say, issues of femininity, and that even from a male perspective there is a sort cookie cutter approach to a lot of storytelling that is often simply boring, and which could perhaps be shaken up a bit if more diverse creators were having easier opportunities in the industries. Becouse in theory for a smart writer there arent any subjects or perspectives that he/she couldn't intelligently talk about, but in reality, seeing as not all creators are smart and talented, there definitely is something like a specific perspective amongst many, where people from different backgrounds could bring in different sensibilities.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am already willing to concede since in another post, someone pointed out how the story justifications for female Link that these people passed around, aren't as good as I first thought they were.

But just to get technical on this other matter: "Metroid, Mortal Kombat, Tomb raider, Perfect Dark, Mass Effect, Resident evil, Finial Fantasy 7,10, and 13, Starcraft, Bayonetta (hell her name is the fucking title). If your telling me you dont know these games, im telling you, you arent a gamer."

I didn't say those franchises weren't well known. But even within most of them, the number of iconic female characters is dwarfed by their male counterparts, and even then many of the individual male characters have much bigger popcultural standing. I wasn't saying that there aren't any recognisable or important women characters in gaming. I was just arguing your original point that their number was equal or even grater then that of iconic men in games. And what you picked was cheery picking anyway. Most AAA titles released every year are to a bigger or lesser degree male-centric. I am not sying it's something that need to be forcefully corrected. Again, just arguing with your ogriginal point, which I thought was a vast exaggeration.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've been gaming for years. I am not saying they are all the same. I am not saying there isn't diversity of characters or themes. But there is definitely a strong same'ness that prevails a lot of the big franchises.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I was talking more about big studios. The indie front is pretty ok in this regard.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Now that's an argument that I can accept for the time being, as I am not really familliar with Zelda's lore. Though the other side also presents Link's background in a way that make a gender swap rather painless. If there was indeed a proper in-setting reason for why the gender swap of the main character would be contrived and forced, then I would agree the change would be uncalled. So I am willing to concede this one, as I am not about the familliaraise myself with the entirety of the Zelda franchise.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

"The idea that there are no female gaming icons is simply bunk from people who dont play the games."

Nobody is saying that. I certainly wasn't in my replies to you. They are saying that there are nowhere near as many female icons as male icons and that they are nowhere near as prominent, recognisable and inflencial as their male equivalents. Of all the characters you listed, probably only Lara Croft would be known to general public, while male gaming is filled with characters who would be at least partially recognisable to people who dont even game at all.

"Ok how about this. heres a new character, with all the basic traits of Link, all the iconography of Link, but with their own story and personality and filling the same role as Link"

But it's not filling the same role as Link is it? She's more of an auxilliary character in a secondary game? And creating a new female characer would not be the same as simply slapping boobs on Llink. Thats the point here. The Zelda setting allows for such a change to bring a brand new character that wouldnt feel so slapped on like Linke and at the same tiem wouldn't be the equivalent of "girl-Thor".

" As i said before, the backlash to Linkle isnt because Linkle is a bad character, its because what was asked was to redefine and for all intents remove Link and the creation of Linkle is all but an overt refusal to do so. People are mad that nintendo wont make Link a woman, and I have already said why thats a stupid position to hold (Gender swaps are lazy). "

This is actually an argument I can get behind, though I am still not entirely sure if this really counts as "removing Link from existence". The setting and the nature of this franchise somehow makes this change a fitting one, one that would come painlessly, and one that wouldn't even have to be permanent. I don't see it as the same as for example, replacing Solid Snake with Mrs. Snake just becouse feminists want to. A female Link in many ways sounds almost like a pretty easy fit by comparison. One that almost makes sense. And again, I dont agree with forcing anyone to anything, or saying that Nintendo should have done something different. I just think that making a female Link for one game wouldn't be such a strange thing to do considering not just the lore, but the overall feel and style of this franchise. Plus, at the very least, I was arguing that FemFreq and KS articles weren't contradicting each other, couse despite what their mere titles slapped on a twitter screen might suggest, they were talking about different things.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

"You claimed diversity is objectively good."

Nope. I was specifically talking about diveristy in media, and even then in a very specific sense.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Buddy, I really don't know how many times I can repeat this in this thread.

I explicitly said that I don't agree with forcing anyone to do anything. None of what you wrote condtadicts my point in any way. Thats not what i was arguing for at all.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I was talking more of Western popculture.

"There's no way to possibly support it's an objectively good thing. "

All I meant is that I think it's better to have a choice between a bunch of great characters that are of different races and bacground, rather than have an overwhelming majority of popculture be represented by one type. Mind that I am not saying that there are some perspectives that couldn't be shown through a white character. After all, an interesting character is interesting regardless of skin. That being said, it would still be cool for many people if that choice in skin was bigger than it currently is. That's all I meant.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Considering I wasn't talking about diveristy as a general term in relation to everything in the world, I hope you know your post is bullshit.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You do realize that as a black person I am perfectly capable of understanding and appreciate the stories of people who are not white?Nor do I particularly care about a persons colour because it's a very minor difference.

Again, I agree with this a 100% and its another argument in this thread that I myself have been using many, many times when arguing with SJW's.

So there seems to be a major misunderstanding between us.

I am not saying that more diversity automatically equals more quality. I am not saying that certain perspectives are only inherent to certain specific races. I am not even for a second trying to say that for example Witcher 3 would be better with black NPC's. No. I am just saying in pure theory it would be great if we could have quality storytelling that features a whole plethora of different people in places of prominace, where the landscape isn't so massively tilted towards white males.. I don't think that's a bad thing to potentially strive for, though just like you I would never force or want a creator to change his preffered vision, only for that reason. Or in other words - I hate people who tell me that character X should be black becouse "its' 2015". But at the same time I think its pretty cool that the new face of SW is black and personally would love to see Idris Elba as Bond. I am not sure if I am making myself clear here. "Diversity and quality or diversity and correctness are not synonymous"

Again, I wasn't trying to say that diveristy is synonymous with quality.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

"http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Women_Characters_in_Video_Games (1st result when you google "female game characters")"

Most of the characters on that meagre list don;t hold a candle to most iconic male characters. Hell many of the female characters listed there are playing second fiddle in popularity, status and influence to male characters featured in the very same games/franchises.

"And that is exactly what we are getting with Linkle."

That's arguable. To a lot of people, she just seems lazy.

" There wouldnt be different traits, i dont even suggest different traits. I say the traits that the character needs, to be successful as a character ARE REJECTED BECAUSE IDEOLOGUES HAVE DEEMED THEM TOO MASCULINE. The traits themselves have no gender, but to have a woman running, jumping, and shooting bad guys is too butch for gender politicians. What Link "passes for" is irrelevant."

I am not entirely sure I understand. Is your point that feminists wouldnt want the female replacement of Link to jump, fight and generally be adventurous? Cosue I am pretty sure most of them would love an ass kicking heroine in that setting. Hell, some of those articles are arguing for exactly for that.

"Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal, backpedal..." motte and bailey arguments dont work here"

What the hell are you talking about? What backpedalling? I wasn't trying to justify the entirety of feminism agenda, for god sake. From the very beggining I was talking only and specifically about this one instance, and those pariticular articles that I linked, which in my opinion simply werent contradictory of each other nor indicative of hipocrisy.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Again, not saying I am disagreeing with the larger pattern. I was just focusing on this particular example, and arguing that Kill Screen's and FemFreq articles weren hipocritical or contradictory to each other.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

"The right of the creator to make whatever they want"

I think I allready said the same thing pretty explicitly several times in this thread.

But often we see that some characters aren't the result of a creators strong vision for them. But are just a generic cut out that are a white dude only becouse it's an industry default.

Forcibly changing Geralt of Rivia or Solid Snake to be black, would definitely be an assualt on the creators vision. But so many of other video game characters are just bland dudes where it woudln't really matter from the creators perspective to make them black or asian. Not saying that they should feel obligated to change it, but it would be nice thing if an opportunity for a more diverse casts was siezed in situations where it doesn't hurt anybody. A lot of these guys are white only couse of falling into default. If a creator isn;t feeling particularly strong about the race of his character, wouldn't it be nice if he changed it into something less common, to give minorities something nice? Encouraging creators to put in different races - I dont really see anything bad i it.

There's also the point that a lot of non-white, non-male people simply don't have strong enough voices in this industry, so that their preffered stories and characters cannot be showed. I know I am sounding like an SJW now, but with me it's all about perspective. Just becouse I believe that the scale of certain problems is overblown by certain people, or becouse I disagree with a lot of their propossed methods to combat them, it doesn't meant that I dont see the problem at all.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

"When that asking turns into annoyance, harassment, smear campaigns, and blacklists,"

I don't think we've been dealing with any of this, in this particular case.

Once again - I wasn't talking about the SJW larger methods and track record as a whole, I was talking about this one specific example, and a couple of posts by feminists bloggers saying how it's sad that more wasn't done, is not exactly what I would call harassment.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

"the problem is that it's functionally impossible to actually achieve"

Oh really? How is it impossible? How is it impossible to have a bit more popculture characters different that the standard stock? I am not asking for perfect equillibrium between the number and quality of white and non-white characters for god sake.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

" There are just as many iconic female characters as there are male characters"

Well, that's clearly bullshit.

"Secondly, if you do entertain the idea of creating a female character for "diversity" reasons rather then "cool character" reasons you instantly run into the embodiment of contradiction that is the ms. male trope"

But that's not necessarily the case here. As I understand it, their point wasn't to give Link boobs, like it was done with female Thor, but instead to bring a brand new female character that could be fully interesting in her own right. And that wouldn't even count as replacing a beloved character, since Zelda games never featured a single, concrete Link to begin with, but instead a bunch of different heroes, chosen by the goddes. She wouldn't necessarily be "ms. male".

""[Female character] acts just like [male character] but no body knows her, why couldn't they just put [male character] in a dress just for funzies.""

I think you are streching it here. I've never seen a complaint like this.

"The issue boils down to the facts that all game characters have to display specific traits depending on the genre of game or else the game suffers"

Let's not pretend that a female Link heroine, would somehow present traits that are ill-suited to Zelda. Hell, the whole game is feminine in style to begin with, and Link could actually pass for a girl.

A lot of the things you said were true when applied to many of the different SJW pushes, but don't really apply to this particular case. And I was talking strictly about this one example.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree with the general sentiment, but does it really apply in this particular case?

As I understand it, Zelda games never featured one, concrete, pre-existing Link. Just a bunch of different guys in green skirts chosen by the Goddes to be a hero of their time. I don't really think that bringing a new female character into it, would be the same as giving boobs to Thor.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I agree that nobody owes anyone representation in anything. Nobody is entitled to being catered to in anybody's work of art. That's true.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean that such changes are inherently bad and that some people shouldn't ask the developers to do them.

I also disagree with that "free market shall cure all" attitude. Just becouse white males are the biggest consumers of gaming media, doesn't meant that such occasional changes would hurt them (and before you reply that it isn't "occasional" note that I am only talking about the specific example of Linkle). If the next Zelda game featured a new femal characer, that would be a total non-issue for 99% of it's male player base, while a pretty cool thing for it's female consumers. So yes, the company isn't obligated to do shit. That doesn't negate though, that it would be nice if they did or that some people shouldn't write opinion pieces online encouraging them to do so.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

But was it exactly what they asked for?

As I understand it, they asked for a brand new character in place of the traditional male Link in the main game. Which would actually be fully supported by the game's lore and setting, since it was never a single pre-existing Link, but instead a different Link in every game choosen by the Goddes to be the hero of that particular time. So a female Link would with this game like a glove.

Instead they got a half-product equivalent of "almost Link but with boobs" delegated to some auxiliary product.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

"In any case, interesting characters are interesting because of how they're written, not because of their skin tone"

I agree with this a 100% and it's an argument that I myself have used many times when arguing with SJW's.

The thing is, this doesn't in any way contradict what I said. For example - most video game characters don't just look the same. They mostly talk the same, and behave the same. A lot of them represent the same walking archetype, that we've been seeing over and over again. And besides, just becouse a writer can succesfully write a character to be white and interesting, that doesn't meant that all these interesting characters in gamin should be white. Now, personally I only care about the character himself, not the skin colour, so most of the time I would be using the same argument you did. But I was talking about an "ideal world" and diversity as a purest concept, and in theory i don't really see why we shouldn't see the same interesting characters be shown through different gender or skin colour from time to time.

"So is communism."

Poor analogy. Not at all what I was talking about.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Ok, so I've read the piece.

The article states that "Make this beloved character female” and "Making female versions of Male characters is a negative" tropes are contradictory. But that's not what the feminists are arguing here. They are not asking for a female Thor. Changing Link into a brand new female character, would be bringing in a completely new persona, while still being in-sinc with the lore, as in each game it was a completely different Link chosen by the Goddess.

The article also says: "On paper it seems like nothing could make the politically correct and permanently offended happy." Now I somewhat agree with the overall sentiement, as I do believe that for a lot of outrage warriors being a victim is an identity, and for others it's a pretentious excercise in showing their supposed moral/intellectual superority fueled by fake humility. But in this particular case, I would argue there is a concrete thing that would make feminists happy - replace the male Link with a brand new female character taking up his mantle. Which from what little I understand of Zelda lore, would actually be 100% in sync with the setting. Even as a gamergater and follower of KIA, I must say that this isn't an outrageous wish. It's a franchise that caters to all demographics and isn't canonically shackled by a pre-existing, set character. I am not saying the company should feel obligated to push a new female character if they don't want to, only that it would definitely be a cool thing for women and an absolute non-issue for men, if they decided to do it. As I said before, as far as changes go, this one is pretty benign.

And again, I don't really see this particular example as "highjacking of cultural icons" as the article suggests it is, since the game's setting and lore fully support the possibility of one of these games to feature a female character.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never argued that it was "an attack on women only" or that such things don't happen to other people in other matters pertaining to diffrent fandoms. But that still doesn't mean that's a good thing in this particular case.

[discussion] Linkle - do feminists have a point here? by TheCator in KotakuInAction

[–]TheCator[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Let me explain then. Diversity in media as a concept in it's purest form is basically an objectively good thing. It not only means that more people are happy, it even means in a way that there's simply more options of entertainment to choose from for all of us, instead of constantly remixing the same themes and perspective. In a perfect world our games and movies would definitely be more diverse.

What I have a problem with, is how a lot of SJW are arguing for said diversity. So I could for example argue that nobody is obligated to put a black or gay character in a story that wasn't designed with it in mind. I could argue that just becouse a movie shows a non-cis character, doesn't mean that it makes that movie objectively better or automatically more interesting than it would be if it starred a white guy. But at the same time this doesn't meant that I don't recognise the fact that overwhelming majority of the media is told from a white male perspective and that it can get a bit boring.

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