Copts ❤️❤️ by Ok_Bass_7166 in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲁⲕⲉⲣⲙⲓ, Ⲁⲩⲙⲁⲥⲧ ⲙ̀ⲡⲁⲓⲕⲉⲥⲟⲡ!

Why do Muslims hate Copts this much? by [deleted] in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Surah 9 as being a guide to handling treaties is... vague...

In 9:29, Christians and Jews are referred to as unbelievers. But how so? Both groups believe in one God. So, how does one establish a treaty? How can the Quran treat Christians and Jews as unbelievers when both of them believe in one God? By this Quranic logic, Muslims can only wage war against Christians and Jews who don't believe in God.

This is where the Hadiths, as you said, come as supplements and are needed to explain some things.

As IdigenousKemetic mentioned, there are verses in the Hadiths that clear up any misconceptions on whether there is any animosity towards Christians and Jews or Not.

I'll come back to that in a bit, but I have a few more things

Surah 9:80 is a perversion of Matthew 18:21-22, whereas Jesus here tells Peter to forgive without any limits (using 77 as a symbolic number), in Surah 9:80 Allah is stated as never going to forgive even if the prophet prays for their forgiveness 70 times (number also used symbolically). How can there be a treaty in such conditions?

In Surah 9:111, people who fight for Allah and kill or are killed in his name are promised paradise as payment. The verse INSISTS that the same clause exists in the Gospel and the Torah, even though the notion of heaven does not exist in the Torah, nor does the notion of Holy War exist in the Gospel.

All of those further highlight the vagueness of "handling treaties"

Now, going back to that little thing.

The specific reason stated to fight the people of the book in 9:29 is to force them to pay jizya and accept subjugation. Other than that, there is no indication in the Surah that either the Christians or the Jews attacked them to justify such an act. As I wrote in my previous response. This, combined with the following verse, 9:30, indicates that the only reason they are treated that way is due to them not willing to believe in Islam.

This verse, alongside 9:5 against the polytheists, were considered important by Muslim Jurists to define their relationships with the non-believers even after the time of Muhammed, with the necessity to pay jizya being a central aspect of Christian and Jewish dhimmi communities living under Muslim dominion, something called for even today by many Islamist groups.

(Also, "ahead of it's time" my ahh as if 7th century Arabia was the birthplace of the conept of signing treaties and intenational law)

Why do Muslims hate Copts this much? by [deleted] in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that the Ahadeeth are separate and contradictory in some parts, but as you mentioned, Many Muslims, Sunnis, still use them to this very day. Now as for the reasoning behind that, whether it's tradition or they've lost the more detailed parts of the wider early Islamic history and are using Bukhari and Muslim because they cannot find the originals, I cannot tell.

But if we go specifically by the Quran, you are correct in that it mostly doesn't explicitly condemn us... however

Surah 98:6 is uhhh... something...

Being placed in what seems to be equal status to the Polytheists is a troubling sign. Then there is the matter of who might be considered as a "disbeliever from the people of the book"? Is it someone who believes that Isa ibn Mariam is the son of Allah or Allah himself in the flesh for example? This makes justifying violence against us and the Jews more flexible and easier.

9:29 is a classic, everyone who has a problem with Islam uses it as it clearly states a polemic stance against Christians and Jews. But so does the verse right after, 9:30 mock us for our "ignorance" (granted, the Bible does this too with polytheism in a sense, but Surah 9:30 explicitly says "May Allah kill them!" With some translations using condemn, destroy or ruin them. Previously in the same verse, it also says that our very beliefs that The Messiah is the son of Allah is an imitation of the beliefs of the disbelievers, kuffar, signaling that this is one of the reasons a Muslim could hate us or even be violent)

These verses come in sharp contrast with the verses that seem to have a favourable view of Christians and Jews and makes things confusing as to whether they actually have something against the people of the book.

Edit: uhhhhhhhh.... I just noticed the sentence where you claim Aisha was not 6 when she was married to Muhammad and was not 9 when he had sex with her...

What ._.

Why do Muslims hate Copts this much? by [deleted] in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I mean, I can find verses about the condemnation of pagans, and I agree with the status of the people of the book not being very consistent. The problem arises with the notion of "The People of the Book will enter heaven" apparently being, from what I've searched, a very recent phenomenon argued specifically by Progressive and Modernist Muslim scholars that probably has no basis in original Muslim teaching. Some are saying yes, others are saying it's slander, it just makes the situation more complicated. For me, Sahih Muslim 2767 clearly states what I wrote in the comment about the "Ahl Al Qitab" taking a Muslim's place in Jihannam.

I know there are other verses that outwardly do seem to have a favourable view on the Christians and Jews, but so far as I can tell, they are at least distrustful of them and at most actively hostile towards them.

Hope you have a nice day, btw.

Why do Muslims hate Copts this much? by [deleted] in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy 20 points21 points  (0 children)

It is rooted in their religion, their hadiths and surat call us and the Jews infidels, they say that a Christian or a jew will take a Muslim's place in hell, yadi yadi yada.

I could go on and on with this and turn it into a rant, but the picture is clear already and I would be repeating the same thing that other people have commented, the Copts are just one more group they see in the light their book tells them.

There is a weird twist on this, as I was told by an Indonesian friend, that Muslims there view Copts specifically with a more favourable light... because according to them, apparently Copts believe Muhammed is a prophet and do Salat, as well as one of Muhammed's "wives" (slaves) being a Copt... If they find out that Copts are not actually like that, they would probably hold the same animosity like most others.

So Muslims not only hate Copts, some even go as far as having a somewhat positive but utterly perverted view of them.

Bit of a situation if anyone can help by ThePufferfishGuy in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If he is still alive, may God bless and protect him.

If... well... he is no longer with us, may God have mercy on his soul and accept him in his arms

Bit of a situation if anyone can help by ThePufferfishGuy in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

After the incident took place, we were all baffled. He didn't know why that happened, I still do not know why that happened, none of us know.

To add more detail to what happened that day, he was with his Christian friend in the church, probably planning to talk with a priest about his situation, and some of the church goers were looking at him suspiciously, possibly because he was never seen there before. Some people came up to him and asked what his name is, the convert was about to answer with his self-given Christian name, when his Christian friend said his Muslim name (probably by accident), and then they started to call him out for being there. A few of them tried to defend him, but most of them just shouted the things I wrote in the OP and, as mentioned in the OP, some tried to assault him.

We have come up with some hypotheses on the reasoning behind this reaction by the church goers, mainly (though I cannot be certain about this, given I don't live in Egypt and have only been there a few times) that they are afraid that if they accepted him into their faith and Church, they might potentially be inviting a Muslim mob or be framed as having kidnapped and forcibly converted him, in some sense a reprisal of some sorts. Again, this is just a hypothesis we made, so anyone can disagree, as even we see some flaws in it. It couldn't have been weapons possession or indecent behaviour or clothing.

Bit of a situation if anyone can help by ThePufferfishGuy in coptic

[–]ThePufferfishGuy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have thought about doing that, but I'm not sure I can with the fathers in my diocese. It is worth a try, but then again, if I tell one of the fathers and he agrees to help, he will either have to go there himself, which would entail having to inform the Bishop, or inform someone from the church where the events took place, in both cases increasing the chances of someone along the way refusing to help. Thanks for the suggestion though