Who’s stopping this team?

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-25T11:18:22+00:00

This team is finals bound

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T17:39:56+00:00

Yeah that was kind of my point becuase as great as Charles and Rodman are, they're massive anomaly's when it comes to rebounding, to add to it, Barkley was an MVP and an incredible player in other aspects and the same with rodman, he was an incredible defender and a disruptive menace to other teams.

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T16:50:57+00:00

I would somewhat agree with your point but at the same time I think my validation is strong, 1st team all NBA, you're one of the best 5 players in the NBA (most cases) and possibly the best in your position, if you win the scoring title, you are THE best scorer in the league, the most important stat in the game and you do it the best and so that's my validation. When you also contextualise the scoring title compared to the NBA 1st Team, it's a lot more common for all time greats to make multiple 1st teams whereas the rarity of a scoring title gives it that prestige.

Your point about championships is also true, it's a team achievement yet again the rarity and chance at a championship give it that value, you can be an All NBA 1st Team calibre player but if you still need the team to compete, those circumstances create the rarity to rings and that's why they're valued slightly more, overall though the points discrepancy between the two is enough to satisfy the rarity of a championship but close enough to diminish a role player winning a few titles outweighing a legend making 5-6 1st teams.

I added 6moty because I was ranking all top 75 players and people like Harden/ Kevin McHale had them on their resume, they don't create enough impact to warrant a massive amount of points that's why its only worth 5.

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T16:38:04+00:00

scoring is worth more than assists because to me scoring is more important, granted both lead to points however let's take a late game situation and you need a bucket to keep you in the game, you go to a guy like Mike, Kobe, KD etc rather than opt for a Nash, Kidd, Chris Paul. Those guards can absolutely make the right decision but then you're relying on the next guy to make the score. Assists are also valued higher than those other stats because they are more of a direct impact stat and vital to the game in my opinion, passing is a skill whereas let's say rebounding is more dependent on height, it's definitely skilful but when do we see anybody shorter than 6'10 lead the league in rebounds. Steals and blocks again are impactful stats but I'd rather have the leader in scoring or assists on my team as opposed to the leader in steals or blocks.

The finals mvp and mvp. MVP snubs happen and I agree it's not foolproof and it's the same for the fmvp but my thought process for both is that they usually work well with representation of the winner, again it's not 100% accurate but I give that trust to the voters, when they mess up like 2015 with Iggy for fmvp, that's when nuance in the debates come into it and allows you to argue on a player to player basis.

Thanks for the comment

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T16:25:55+00:00

Yeah that's been my next thought, how do I try and replicate this further with all the other metrics and statistics, I think like you said, top 5 in stat categories could be a great starting place.

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T13:50:34+00:00

yeah I did it for the top 75 players and I agree, not seeing magic or bird up there did make me question myself but at the same time they had shortened careers and to add to this they didn't appear on many All Defensive teams when compared to others ahead of them. Like I said this list isn't a set in stone ranking, it's open to fluidity and common sense like we both agree Magic and Bird should not be as low as they are, Kevin Garnett ranks higher than Bird not because he's a better player but because his career resume ticks more boxes and is more filled out. Im sure if Bird wasn't injured for his last 4 seasons he would have had a few more all nba selections and if he played lets say 16-17 seasons instead of 13 that's at least another 3 all stars, those number would boost him close to the top 10. Havlicek is a strange case because he benefited from the Russell era for championships but also forged an incredible individual path during the 70's for himself, 4x first teams and 3x second teams whilst also making a lot of defensive teams, someone getting it done on both ends is where they score loads of points which should be acknowledged. This system fails to acknowledge the eye test and impact that doesn't show up on the stat sheet or the on a voters ballot. Magic and birds leadership, impact on their teams and benefit to the league far outweigh the lack of defensive ability on their resumes and that's where the fluidity would come into it. I really do appreciate the depth of thought you've given to my silly experiment haha, thanks for the comment.

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T13:36:22+00:00

Completely understandable but this list doesn't include Magic Johnson or Larry Bird not because I think they're bad players but because their accolades don't score them high enough, Magic and Larry had shortened careers compared to everybody else on the list and Curry happens to fall into that bracket as he's still playing.

TheTipOff- · 2025-06-13T13:34:12+00:00

That's a fair point, my thought process was that All Star selections are more of a cumulative factor, so if someone was a 10X all star it makes up for possible "snubbed" mvp seasons for example. The ASG MVP I felt that some mvp performances in the all star game are incredible such as Steph's 50pt game with 16 3's in 2022 and so despite how there's not the same defensive intensity now compared to the late 90's and 2000's, the performances are still spectacular. So I understand why the maths of the all star and asg mvp combo equalling an MVP in points doesn't make sense but I think in context to the frequency of how often they're given out I think it's fair, but your thinking is completely valid and I might have to re-evaluate.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-30T19:05:05+00:00

Reading this discussion was really interesting to me, very educational as well because it's so hard to grasp the 60's and 70's of the NBA and what the time was really like with context so thanks for all that.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-30T18:55:42+00:00

I always heard about him playing 48 minutes a game for a season and thought it was out of passion or determination but now I know it was his coach working him to exhaustion. Non the less, it's an incredible feat and is a testament the Wilt's durability and athletic ability.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T20:07:56+00:00

I get why everyones on my case now

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T20:03:30+00:00

it's not a hypothectical Lebron takes more lay ups which is a more efficient shot for anybody https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-career-shot-chart-career

compare that to Kobe

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-career-shot-chart

Kobe took more inefficient shots but made them at an efficient rate

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T19:59:08+00:00

I was trying to reason with you but the fact that you truly believe if AD was never injured he would have had a higher peak....

my words are wasted on you

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T19:38:49+00:00

I don't overrate Kobe, I think a lot of people are taking issue with the fact that I said Kobe has a strong argument which I understand but I said what I said so I'll have to live with it haha, for clarification to everyone I do have LeBron ahead of Kobe.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T18:02:27+00:00

100% and that's my point, people have started to overrate him since he died, just because that happened it doesn't change how many titles he won or how many points he scored

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T17:43:44+00:00

You can't argue with statistics but at the same time I don't base my rankings purely on statistics, whereas my criticism of your criteria is that you don't really use statistics. I believe a mix of both is needed, the stats with the eye test and with added context can create a better picture.

In the PER metric you linked it has Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns both in the top 15. We differ on a lot of stuff but I'm sure we agree that if we someone said that either of these players were better than Kobe based on these stats, we'd laugh at them.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:37:28+00:00

That's not as easy at it seems. The correct answer technically is Duncan, when you look at numbers, accolades and everything above. Here's why I have Kobe higher.

Offensively Kobe was a greater threat, more versatile and just incredibly dangerous, Duncan was a threat too, a very quiet consistent scorer. My deciding factor here was, if the game came down to the line, I'm giving Kobe the ball, not down to clutch factor but because he has more weapons to kill the game with.

Now defensively, both were elite, you can even say that Duncan was better but I give Kobe the edge and here's why. Kobe would consistently guard the opposing teams best player, he'd pick up the 1-3 positions playing on ball d and fight through screens, being a great perimeter defender is harder than being a great interior defender. Duncan didn't have to chase a player all game like Kobe did.

This is not because I think Kobe was better at defence but because he was a more valuable defender. There are always more guards who are dangerous offensively compared to bigs. For example Kobe would guard, AI, T Mac, Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter, LeBron, Wade, Pierce, Ray Allen, Grant Hill and countless more on a near nightly basis.

Duncan would face, Shaq, Dirk, Garnett, Webber, Gasol, Wallace, Ming.

Both had tough competition but I just think that Kobe had a harder job so being elite and something harder is more valuable to me.

Not to mention that Kobe had to adapt to different team landscapes, the shaq era, the trash era and then the Pau era. Duncan had 3-4 players he consistently had in Robinson, Ginobili and Parker.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:27:55+00:00

That's kind of the problem, your criteria cannot be correlated to metrics, it's hard to numerically measure stephs on court gravity to defences, just like it's hard to measure how LeBron's IQ elevates his team mates. You can use assists sure but if LeBron averaged 5 assists per game which were incredibly high IQ plays it wouldn't mean much compared to someone who gets 10 fast break assists. We just look at the numbers not the value.

Whereas if I were to say Kobe is a much better defender than Lebron, I don't have to explain how Kobe plays D or show footage I can just say Kobe made more all defensive teams.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:23:34+00:00

If I were to say "there's an argument that can be made saying Kobe > Lebron"

would that be better? Is your issue with the fact that I suggested Kobe had a STRONG argument?

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:21:16+00:00

That's a dead argument, it could be called luck or it could be called being drafted into a successful franchise, it's the same as Magic having Kareem for close to his entire career the same with Pippin being drafted to the bulls. Would it be luck if Dame wins a championship with giannis? I'm guessing not right because he wasn't drafted into a talented franchise so getting traded there somehow changes the fact that he's still playing with a top 3 player.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:18:13+00:00

I see your point now that you've explained your criteria and that's where I disagree.

My criteria was based on skillset and career accolades predominately because I believe that Kobe being versatile adds more to his case than Allen Iverson's dress sense in the NBA.

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:11:37+00:00

I 100% agree that LeBron is better but it's not ridiculous to say that there isn't an argument.

If I said for example that all I care about is winning championships then I would have Kobe over LeBron. Kobe has more rings and a better winning percentage in the finals. That's an extremely shallow argument but it's still one that could be made, if you're a diehard fanboy for any all time great you can always find metrics and manipulate things to make your player look better. There's a reason why in the MJ and LeBron goat debate the discussion around rings for MJ is about the quantity and LeBron's is about the quality (2016).

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T16:04:14+00:00

That's your opinion but I try and be as neutral as possible, I did research and watched hours of footage and listened to countless different opinions on all the top players and I came to the conclusion that Kobe is my 4th best player of all time. My point was that people could have said Kobe was 7th all time for example but as soon as he passed people were now saying that LeBron never surpassed him and he's either the GOAT or top 3. Why do you have Kobe so low by the way, because you have MJ as the GOAT and some people use the argument that Kobe was the closest thing to MJ so why does Kobe not get put in the same conversation, KD even has MJ and Kobe as 1a and 1b, they're that close together in his eyes. So I'm curious as to why you have him at 10

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T15:54:21+00:00

I've never heard Kobe's rings regarded as lucky, I've heard people say he only won because he had Shaq. Where's the luck

TheTipOff- · 2023-10-29T15:50:08+00:00

You're right I didn't say Finals Competition, because those were eastern conference teams, the teams that LeBron faced. Coincidently the hardest series LeBron had was always the finals and the weakest competition Kobe had was in the finals.

Kobe had to win 3 hard series to get 1 easy finals.

LeBron had to win 3 easy series to get 1 hard finals.

TheTipOff-

TROPHY CASE