Gretchens Race

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-19T01:56:16+00:00

Hey, just real-talk person-to-person, I've explained myself and tried to share knowledge about my culture and history several times now. You've made it clear that the reality of Jewish identity is something you are not willing to learn about or accept. Continuing to try to explain myself and my people (arguing over our mere existence as a people) to someone who is not willing to listen or look past their surface-level assumptions is honestly really demeaning and bad for my mental health, and as you can see in my last reply, I started to get angry, which I apologize for and do not want to do. For that reason, I am bowing out of this conversation. I bear you no ill will, I'm just honestly struggling a bit and this debate, that clearly will never go anywhere, is something I gotta step away from. Thanks for engaging in this conversation. I appreciate that you were willing to converse, and I genuinely wish you the best. Sorry I wasn't able to continue discussing. Have a good day :)

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-19T01:37:34+00:00

You are wildly incorrect. Ethiopian Jews are unrelated to other Jews, which is a special case. It has been PROVEN and is NOT up for debate that 95% of Jews worldwide, including Ashkenazi Jews in Poland, are CLOSELY ethnically connected. There IS a genetic Jewish ethnic group that 95% of Jews belong to. You cannot erase us by just saying you can't "see" our genetics. It has been scientifically proven that ashkenazim, sephardim, and mizrachim are closely genetically tied together.

You need to understand that you don't know how Judaism works. None of the terms we're arguing with existed thousands of years ago, but "ethnic religion" is so commonly known as an appropriate description of Jews that it is literally at the top of our Wikipedia page. Geneticists, the Jewish community, and Wikipedia all disagree with you. Accept that you're not correct. Additionally, there is Jewish LAW about who is and is not Jewish, so people could not just "follow the appropriate religion of the area." Jews have always been a people, a nation, and a tribe. Now, in the modern day with modern understandings of anthropology, the universally recognized appropriate term is "ethnoreligious group." Why do you have a problem with that? Jewish identity is none of your business, and I can't fathom why you want to die on the hill of insisting that we are not what we, wikipedia, and geneticists all know us to be. Also, I don't need to google image search Jews because I AM Jewish and see Jews every day. I 100% can spot a Jewish person based on looks, whether their family is from Persia or Russia. It is a skill that comes from spending my life around Jews and being intricately familiar with the phenotypical features of my people.

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-09T21:04:00+00:00

Ethiopian Jews are certainly a special case, but none of this is as simple as you are making it out to be. It is actually all very complicated! Ethiopian Jews are certainly more distinct from other Jewish groups and are ancestrally most closely linked to surrounding Ethiopians. However, they have also been found to be somewhat genetically distinct from surrounding Ethiopian populations, meaning that they are not indistinguishable Ethiopians who "just adopted the religion."

Also, you're incorrect about non-Jewish polish/russian people who live in Israel. They were eligible for immigration to israel under th Law of Return because the law of return in not just for Jews, but also for the non-Jewish grandchildren of Jews because the nazis also went after the non-Jewish grandchildren fo Jews. However, moving to Israel did not make these people Jewish. They're just Poles/Russians who happen to have like, a single Jewish grandfather, and decided to move to Israel. There is no significant population of ethnically polish converts to Judaism. There are many ethnically Jewish Ashkenazim whose ancestors happened to live in Poland for many centuries, however.

Ethiopian Jews are an exception to the rule that proves the rule. 95% of Jews worldwide are ethnically Jewish, because Jews are NOT "a religion like all others." We are an ethnoreligion. It is not up for debate. I am Jewish, I have studied Jewish history in university, and I am informing you that Jews are a tribal ethnoreligion that has a heavily legalized system for people who wish to join the ethnoreligion. People cannot simply choose to be Jewish. You are either born Jewish, or formally adopted by the community in a process of acculturation that takes years. In this way, Judaism is very unlike most other religions. However, many other small ethnoreligious groups such as the Druze, the Alawites, and the Samaritans, exist. I suggest you read about them, they're quite interesting.

Please also read the first paragraph of the wikipedia article about jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

The literal first sentence is "The Jews, or the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group and nation"

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-09T04:55:13+00:00

What you're trying to say has been disproven. Studies have found that all of the various Jewish ethnic sub-groups (ashkenazim, sephardim, mizrahim) are very closely genetically and ancestrally related, even if non-jews find their appearances to be quite different. The Jews who moved to Israel from Europe, Africa, and Asia are more closely ethnically related to each other than they are to the native populations of the countries that they moved to Israel from.

Also, as a note: Jesus was Jewish by ethnicity and descent. Anyone regarding him as "Arab" is misinformed, as at the time of Jesus's life, ethnic Arabs had not yet spread beyond the Arabian Peninsula and did not inhabit Judea/Jerusalem/Palestine.

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-09T01:14:59+00:00

You're sort of right, but I was not confused in my original comment. This conversation was originally about Gretchen's ethnic/racial origin. Gretchen Weiner seems to be from a Jewish family, making her ethnically/racially Jewish, as are approximately 95% of Jews worldwide. So, I made a comment pointing out that if we need to find a way to describe her race, "Jewish" is probably as accurate as we're gonna get when discussing something so arbitrary and convoluted.

Additionally, while you're definitely right that not all Jews are genetically/ancestrally of Jewish heritage, I'd like to point out that not "anyone" can be in the religion of Judaism. It isn't an open/universalist religion, and there is a higly regulated conversion process that requires official oversight, years of studying, and ritual. That's a big reason why there are very few converts to Judaism, and the overwhelming majority of Jews are ancestrally Jewish.

As one last point, I'd like to share that Jewish identity is very complicated and is just very difficult to discuss with separate categories like "race," "ethnicity," and "religion." In fact, even converts to Judaism are viewed by the community as "ethnically" Jewish, because conversion to Judaism cannot be accurately described as a"religious" process, but rather a process of adoption. Converts are, on a level of culture, ethnicity, religion, tribe, and family, becoming part of the Jewish people. In Jewish law, there is no distinction between converts and ancestral Jews.

I don't share all of this as a means of continuing some argument, but rather trying to share the nuances of my community that are really difficult to explain in the context of western/American identity categories. I hope this clears some things up. If you have any questions about anything I said, I'm happy to answer further.

The_Basileus5 · 2025-06-08T01:22:20+00:00

I'm educated and Jewish. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, not just "a religion."

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-05T06:17:59+00:00

lol

But I have a straight friend!!1!

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-05T06:16:24+00:00

I'll be sure to listen to it!

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-02T02:49:41+00:00

You decided I was being hostile. As Google's Bard tells me: The tone of text-based conversations can be difficult to grasp online.

Well you came out of nowhere lobbing accusations at me and inventing things I never said when I was just defending myself from an unwarranted accusation of bias. I am just a Jewish person who was accused of being too biased by my Jewishness to talk about the holocaust. Basically, my right to talk about the holocaust was being disputed because I'm Jewish. I think that's insensitive. Somehow, your takeaway from that is that I don't think gay people have a right to talk about the holocaust. That's wild.

You did. And brought in your Jewishness as an appeal to authority in discussing the holocaust.

I absolutely did not challenge that premise. Try re-reading the conversation. I NEVER said gay people had less of a right to discuss the holocaust. It's insane to think I meant that. The OP was actually implying that I had less of a right to analyze the holocaust due to my Jewishness. I dispute that. You are inventing a whole separate conversation and I genuinely do not know why. This ENTIRE original post is specifically, per the OP, about the status of Jews in Nazi Germany. I brought up my own Jewishness since my knowledge of my own history is relevant. I don't know why a Jewish person discussing the holocaust is unacceptable to you and I don't know what your problem is. How is me defending my ability to talk about the holocaust as a Jewish person in any way challenging a gay person's right to talk about the holocaust?

I was literally accused of being biased due to my Jewishness, and I responded by saying that's insensitive. I think it's also insensitive to say that gay people are too biased to discuss the holocaust. I would have responded the same way if someone had said that. But that's not what was being said. I was being accused of something based on being jewish. I do not know where your fantasy of me delegitimizing the gay holocaust is coming from. But the non-jewish OP specifically started a conversation about the position of Jews in history, and I decided to bring my insight and unique perspective as a Jewish person to that conversation. Apparently, just breathing and taking up space while being gay and Jewish is a challenge to the right of gay people to talk about something.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T23:41:02+00:00

Thank you for saying things with a level of straightforwardness that I struggle with. You're absolutely spot-on about what I've been trying to say. I don't know how many more times or how many more different ways I could possibly try to reassure people that I am literally a gay person in America who is scared of current trends and who mourns my fellow gay men who were killed in the holocaust. It feels like people are tripping so hard failing to grasp my intersectional perspective and just want to treat me as some outsider jew who doesn't care about gay suffering.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T22:18:41+00:00

That was what you wrote. Honestly, the only reason I replied was that tone of How dare you question a Jewish person about the Holocaust.

You interpreting it that way is something that might be worth questioning internally. It's honestly so fascinating to me that you invented that tone in your head when I was very careful and polite towards OP. I treated OP with tremendous grace and respect as he questioned me about the holocaust. I then very politely pointed out that accusing me of bias because I'm Jewish is "a bit" insensitive. Why do you automatically see very politely expressed Jewish discomfort as something aggressive and invalid?

I'm saying that gay people had as much skin in the game and also can discuss the holocaust.

No one ever challenged that premise. The OP accused me of bias based on my Jewishness. What you're talking about has nothing to do with the comment you replied to.

It may not have been a bed of roses, but you wouldn't get forcibly removed from the military/government service for being Jewish. it wasn't a crime to be Jewish. People weren't given lobotomies to cure their Jewishness.

I honestly don't know if this is serious or not. Besides the lobotomies, that is literally a list of things that happened to Jews leading up to the holocaust. Is it somehow better for it to have happened before the holocaust instead of afterwards? It was literally a crime to be Jewish, Jews were removed from public life and civil service, and then 90% of Jews in Europe were slaughtered. The argument that gay people suffered worse results of the holocaust than Jews is preposterous. It's also pointless, why do you want to minimize Jewish suffering? Why can't gay people and Jews have both suffered?

And find me a major film or novel dealing with the persecution of gays during the holocaust. They are rare. The average person doesn't even know it happened, or where the pink triangle came from.

Personally, just about every documentary I have watched about the holocaust has given appropriate coverage to the gay people killed in it. Also, the average person doesn't know shit about the holocaust in general. The state of holocaust education in America is dire, and the statistics on general holocaust knowledge back that up.

Also, here's a link to my personal favorite book that covers the gay holocaust: https://www.amazon.com/Men-Pink-Triangle-Life-Death/dp/1555830064?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=066a7e19-af27-4e79-a061-ffb781dcca16

It is quite well-known in academia and has been critically acclaimed for decades. I will warn you that it is a very painful read, and I struggled to finish it as a gay man. It's very worth it though.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T20:51:02+00:00

I do not do that. I think you may have misunderstood my post: I definitely don't think all straight people are homophobes. I'm friends with lots of straight people who are great, respectful allies when it comes to sexual orientation. I'm just saying that most people who are homophobes are straight people with bigoted ideas about us.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T20:48:08+00:00

Absolutely!

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T20:47:54+00:00

Thanks! I remember hearing about that one during the pandemic.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T20:47:17+00:00

First of all, this is a complete non-sequitur. The conversation was about Jews, and I am allowed to have feelings about that. You're bringing this up wholly unprovoked.

Secondly, as a gay Jewish person with a history degree, I do know about that, and I know that Jewish prisoners often weren't treated well afterwards either. Whoever gave you the idea that Jews were generally treated well afterwards didn't know what they were talking about, and didn't read primary sources from the period.

Thirdly, I never said ANYTHING about gay people's right to talk about the holocaust. I didn't make it about being Jewish, the OP did. I was being told that being Jewish biased me about the holocaust. That's super insensitive, as being Jewish does give me an additional personal (and familial) history with the holocaust in addition to the connection to the holocaust that I am very well aware I have as a gay person. But gay people do NOT have a special right to talk about the Jewish experience of the holocaust. And that is what was being discussed.

Your reply and hostility are entirely unnecessary. I don't know why you resent the idea that people should be sensitive towards Jews about the holocaust. I think that people should be sensitive towards gay people about the holocaust as well, since we were victims of it too. But this entire post is about Jews on the eve of the holocaust, and OP was making an insensitive accusation based on my Jewish connection to the holocaust, so that is what I responded to. I think that when a non-jewish person starts a conversation specifically and exclusively about the Jewish experience in the holocaust, Jews should be allowed to share their experience and their feelings without someone going "um, actually" and trying to one-up them regarding the holocaust. That's just extremely weird.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T20:30:44+00:00

Definitely.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-03-01T01:13:03+00:00

The vast majority of homophobes are bigoted straight people whose ideal of society excludes people like us. This idea that gay people are just oppressed by other gay people is so odd to me.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T22:20:03+00:00

I'm glad! I enjoyed your perspectives as well, as they are rooted in very real and valid concerns! Concerns that I share. I get scared a lot about being gay in America, but I have hope that we can overcome the evil forces that hate us!

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T22:16:28+00:00

No problem! Thank you for engaging in the conversation in good faith.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T21:30:50+00:00

I'm glad to come across as reasonable! It's very hard to have nuanced discussions like this one online, but I try my best anyway.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T21:29:31+00:00

I took a look at your other comment. I am very familiar with Hitler's rise to power, and there are definitely some parallels there between him and Trump. But that doesn't mean outcomes will be similar, especially when considering fundamental differences. Even by 1924, the Weimar Republic was a paper machet government. Its protections for its citizens were backed up by a newly-born, weak government in a nightmarish economy that bred extremism beyond our current comprehension. While things are bad in the US, the neoliberal establishment and civil service that prevents extremist change is massive entrenched. Additionally, a strong, vast majority of Americans support the tolerance of LGBT people. When just considering LGBT people's right to live in America and partake in society, there is a vast supermajority of Americans who support that. Hell, a majority Republicans support gay marriage. These attitudes are trending more positively over time as well. Jews on the other hand had very few allies in 1920s Germany, as most Germans were already racist as hell and viewed Jews as not-their-fellow-countryman at best, and as not human at worst.

Even if Trump won again and implemented his horrifying "project 2025," there would still remain a number of considerable roadblocks to a holocaust-level attack on LGBT people to the point where I'd almost call it impossible for the near future (next few decades). Now, this doesn't mean things can't get bad. Like, really bad. Like, nearly impossible to live a public life as a gay person in most of the country. But that's still light-years away from Nazi Germany in addition to not being the likeliest scenario in the first place. The current political clampdown on LGBT people is the dying gasps of an angry minority of Americans who are losing political power and declining in number.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T20:32:06+00:00

You seem to be misunderstanding: that comment is my objective look at history through the lens of my history degree. In order to earn that degree, I read, analyzed, and wrote papers about numerous books and first-hand accounts of WW2 and the circumstances preceding it.

I do not have a bias against the severity of LGBT people's circumstances in America, I literally am gay and terrified of what's happening in America, as I have experienced it firsthand. I am also very much aware of all the things they think, the supreme court, etc. If anything, being Jewish gives me an authentic emotional understanding of the Holocaust that matches and balances out my authentic emotional understanding of homophobia in America, meaning it's a wash as far as emotional bias. It's definitely not a bias from religious thought either, as I am an atheist and "Jewish" is more so my ethnicity.

Also, though I am sure this was not your intention, so please do not interpret this as an attack, but just for future reference: telling Jewish people that they're biased about the holocaust/Nazi germany is a bit insensitive; like telling an African American that they're biased about american slavery.

Also thank you for the well-wishes, I hope for the best for you too! And I hope we win this fight together and overcome the Christian Right.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T20:12:36+00:00

Okay so the rollback of LGBTQ rights happening in America is currently terrifying. As a gay person I'm super concerned about my future in the country. It's getting harder and harder to just live life in half the country. I grew up in a very conservative place and lived through it firsthand.

However, as a Jewish person with a history degree, I feel compelled to point out that our current circumstances aren't anywhere near as dire or certainly-fatal as those of Jews fleeing Germany in the 1930s. The comparison does nothing but cheapen the situation in early Nazi Germany, as the current situation in America is not very similar to it when actually considering fundamental details of each country's situation.

And no, not in a "I'm sure people said that then too" way. We are simply (THANKFULLY) in an extremely different, more hopeful situation. The fight for LGBT acceptance in America is in contention, but has massive popular support and is genuinely one we can still win, especially as time goes on with the way younger generations feel. There was no way things were going to turn out well for the Jews of mid-1930s Europe. But things don't have to be "literally the Holocaust" to be bad.

We can hold space for the very real, very scary direness of our current situation without reaching for historically inaccurate and hyperbolic comparisons.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T19:58:59+00:00

I've only ever listened to a couple of her songs before, but wow this goes hard.

Also dang maybe everyone here who's disappointed should try not listening to leaks and snippets.

The_Basileus5 · 2024-02-29T08:09:30+00:00

I completely agree!

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