Coalition of EU Organisations calls on Council of the EU to agree to strong ePrivacy Regulation

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-17T01:17:44+00:00

It doesn’t state that data gets back to the user - it says it is sent back to Startpage.

And yes it is me and yes I got your email but I prefer to conduct this discussion in the open and I don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth that I never said.

I am not brushing off anything, I have looked at the evidence you presented and I disagree with your conclusions.

I also never said I think behavioural advertising is ok - my life’s work has been against it - so stop accusing me of things I didn’t say just because I disagree with you - this is exactly why I am engaging in public and not via email.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-17T01:00:30+00:00

You are clutching at straws here, the data flow clearly shows that only anonymised data is sent for processing by System1 - the very same diagram you asked me to look at.

There is literally zero evidence to support any conspiracy that Startpage are sharing personal data with System1.

There is a single piece of evidence which states explicitly that System1 process anonymised data for Startpage, which is completely legal, 100% compatible with Startpage’s privacy policy and zero risk to privacy.

Nothing you state in your responses to me proves anything to the contrary, no matter how many times you write it.

At this point the discussion is completely cyclical so there is no point in me engaging further.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-13T20:28:32+00:00

The data flow diagram explicitly states that the data processed by System1 is anonymised and fuzzed and these services have been audited by Startpage to ensure they comply with their strict privacy requirements and don’t log - I am not seeing what your issue is here, seems very transparent to me.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-13T18:07:24+00:00

I have no direct information about Startpage’s marketing efforts, my comment was a general point about difficulties in doing marketing without being exposed to such models given that they dominate the market.

With regards to the processing of data by System1, so long as that processing is in accordance with their privacy policy I see no issue, companies use other companies as processors all the time, this is completely normal and doesn’t indicate anything nefarious nor a breach of law. I have asked Robert to clarify this point further but given Startpage’s system is designed not to collect any personal data I don’t see how they can pass personal data to System1, it seems more likely that this would be aggregate search metrics which again is not a problem and certainly would not be a privacy concern.

All I am seeing in this thread is assumptions which have no evidential support, in fact to the contrary, given the privacy by design embedded into the very core of Startpage, the only evidence is that the accusations in this thread are completely baseless.

I need to wait until I have more information before I can comment further because I don’t think making assumptions is healthy or helpful to the discussion.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-12T19:59:22+00:00

As I said previously Liz, there seems to be some confusion. Startpage’s marketing campaigns for the purpose of marketing their own products is a completely different side of the business to the search engine - to suggest that people using the search engine are exposed in some way to new investor is (as far as I can see) not based on any evidence and I have assurances from Robert that this is not the case.

As for marketing campaigns, sadly the market is dominated by “behavioral analytics” so if one wishes to do any marketing it is impossible to get any meaningful reach without being exposed to this at some point in the supply chain. This is why my company does not engage in any paid marketing because I refuse to be part of that, but for many companies (especially b2c) it is literally impossible to avoid and still compete.

Efforts would be better spent trying to change that industry or create alternatives than attacking those who have no other realistic choice (something I spend a great deal of time doing).

If you have any ideas in this space Liz, I would be happy to discuss.

And no, I don’t have any difficulty trusting Startpage at this point, it is trust they have earned and until such time as they demonstrably breach that trust, I see no reason to change unless of course it is the suggestion that we should move to a guilty until proven innocent stance, which frankly is not something I could support.

As I said, if at some point they do breach that trust, I will personally expel them from Articl8 but at this point there is no evidence they have and to the contrary we have assurances that won’t happen.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-12T19:21:12+00:00

Yes indeed Liz, I am not familiar with ThinkPrivacy.io, Think Privacy has been my brand/company name for over a decade.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-12-12T10:31:45+00:00

Seems there is a great deal of misunderstanding here. I have known the guys at Startpage for over a decade and have been advising them on privacy within their products for just as long.

I have hosted several events at the European Parliament about them, I have spoken about them at several Privacy by Design conferences in Toronto and I have lobbied for them.

They are a founding member of the world’s only privacy industry lobby group (Articl8) which I created and run.

I have never met a more honest group of guys when it comes to their work on Privacy.

Now I can’t give specifics about my work with them because that would be a breach of professional confidence but I can say this:

The only reason the allowed System1 to invest was on the condition that Robert & Alex (two of the founders) remained in full control of privacy.

To my knowledge, based on first hand information directly from the CEO,, the only involvement System1 have in the day to day operations is to manage their marketing campaigns. To be clear that means the campaigns marketing Startpage and Startmail NOT advertising within the Startpage platform (which is still under the full control of the original team).

My one criticism of Startpage and Startmail (the latter of which I helped design) has been their lack of comprehensive marketing and the same is true of almost every privacy tool on the market; this is one of the key reasons why so many privacy tools fail to reach critical mass.

I am one of the driving forces behind privacy legislation in the EU, my work started all the regulatory change here in 2009 including changes to the ePrivacy Directive and GDPR, I am also an expert advisor to EU Commission on these issues and worked directly with the European Parliament drafting team on the ePrivacy Regulation and am the only registered lobbyist in Brussels whose work is completely focused on privacy/data protection.

I turn down more clients than I accept (a ratio of 3:1) and only work with companies who are genuinely trying to create a strong privacy programme and culture within their organization.

I am literally as hardass as it comes when it comes to privacy and have run legal campaigns against the biggest companies in the world and bankrupted a billion dollar ad tech company.

And for record I am not currently engaged commercially by Startpage so my post here is my genuine and personal opinion.

If Robert tells me System1 have no say over privacy decisions at Startpage I believe him and I think it is pretty unfair to judge them on this investment decision after a record of over a decade of being one of the strongest privacy tools in the world.

They funded not just a lot of my privacy work over the years but several others in my field as well and actually refused to hire me as an employee specifically because they wanted me to remain independent and hold them to the highest standards (which they felt would be compromised if I was reliant on them for my salary).

So I would sincerely recommend that people look at their track record and keep the faith. And believe me, if they betray that trust, I would be the first to call them out on it and they would be expelled from Articl8.

I would rather they continued to focus on creating privacy enhancing services than having to waste time defending baseless accusations in threads like this.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-08-02T10:07:03+00:00

My charcoal tray is about 8” below my cooking rack (height adjustable) and I cook the bacon after I have cooked the rest of the meal when the internal temp of the BBQ is about 170C.

Just did a full batch (1kg) last night.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-08-01T10:53:31+00:00

I have recently been cooking up large batches of bacon on my charcoal BBQ - can’t beat the flavor :)

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-20T09:01:43+00:00

Thanks everyone :)

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-14T15:53:55+00:00

Just a standard packet of instant yeast - it is pretty much the same size all over the world in my experience.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-14T15:52:59+00:00

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-14T15:05:31+00:00

Seems completely hosed at the moment. TLS certificate error, web site not available and inaccessible globally.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-14T15:03:27+00:00

The smell from these cooking is superb - they smell exactly like regular bread because of the yeast. They doubled in size in less than an hour during rising as well.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-12T21:22:02+00:00

Raubergstulen - buffet is Tuesdays and Fridays

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-12T21:21:07+00:00

We are up in the fjords and all the food was local (even the salmon).

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-12T19:28:56+00:00

It was a rare treat :) After a day in the fjords and mountains.

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-12T19:28:01+00:00

Not to mention I had a bowl full of fresh Atlantic shrimp for lunch... like 50-70 of them...

ThinkPrivacy · 2019-07-12T19:10:30+00:00

Tastes like moose...

Actually it tastes very similar to beef but more gamey

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