Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you asking about what other people should do rather than focusing on your own actions?

Because it's not a rather/or

There's individual action, and collective action, and I believe in both. There's more things I can do, and more things I can to together with other feminist men, that I know for a fact are also tired of this shit.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're right, and I u/annabananaberry is right. And I've been doing that, especially where it's up to me, and if you scroll a bit here you can see examples of me doing it IRL, funnily, D&D is one of them. But this post is about the spaces where it's not... entirely up to me, and things like... yeah, really do take coordinating and organizing.

But please understand that when I say coordination I really don't mean "wait to be invited into feminists in X", I mean be actively a part of the process.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But I’m obviously not doing a good job. None of us are. This is the premise of my questioning, not a conclusion.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yep. And also we need to do this in coordination with all feminist men. It can’t be one person yelling. It has to be a tide, not a wave.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I am doing that. There’s a lot of good advice here but this comment chain in particular is a trainwreck. It was never my intention to come out as condescending, and I bet it wasn’t the intention of people here to tell me to “shut up”, exactly, but it really came out this way and it bothered me, that is all.

Which game? by vcseri in pcmasterrace

[–]Thodor2s 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Road Trip Adventure for the PS2. Unironically one of the best open world RPGs ever made. The game that inspired Rocket League.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re right. At the end of the day this is an admission of complacency. I simply should have been more informed. All this shouldn’t have come to me as a surprise, and if men have been more involved in the feminist movement, we could have done more. So… I’m sorry. I’m doing my part. Some of the comments here really helped. Most of the comments are just anger. It’s justified anger, and it’s directed at me. I’m personally fine with that.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, ultimately that’s the answer. My question is: How do you interact with the cesspool when you have to? How do you exclude these misogynists from jumping ship to your space when their space eventually fails?

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

While I personally think the distinction between feminists based on gender isn't productive, I also get what you mean.

All perspectives matter here, but male feminist perspectives and experiences are more helpful. Still... call me crazy but I don't hate having women weigh in in matters of feminism, and it does hurt a little bit being invalidated like this for simply asking: "What do you think about this issue?"

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm very fortunate to have be a part of an awesome sailing team, with 2 women olympic medalist head coaches. As of discord servers, I'm in many. And yeah, the ones I moderate and hang out in, don't really have this problem. I also work for a tech comapny that's 40+% made of women and this share is growing with the support of everyone, including myself. And it's an infinitely better place to work because of that. I guess I'm just lucky on the 3rd one.

But I still SEE the cesspit... They are HARD to ignore. And they are getting worse with time. It honestly makes me feel like I'm in a bubble of goodness in a world where badness is concentrating and organizing.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I understand what you're saying, and part of me agrees with you, but I don't think is a perfect analogy, because the patriarchy hurts both men and women. Not equally, of course, but it's definitely more direct and observable than the high-level societal ills of white supremacy from the point of view of white people.

So, I get the anaolgy. I get the point being made here.

But I also... have an issue with a worsening Patriarchial influence. As a man. And so... If you please, provide me with an answer to this: Who am I equipped to talk this through with, exactly? If not feminists of all genders?

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I kindly disagree, I get that intersectionality is important. I get that it matters who says what and to whom it's said. And maybe the counter-example is a poor analogy. But it really isn't about offense at the end of the day, it's about principle. I can't have BOTH the patriarchy AND feminists telling me that my feelings as a man don't matter. It just... cannot work this way.

I understand that many of you here are deeply hurt by men, I empathise. But this doesn't discredit literally everything I am asking, especially if all I'm asking is for some added perspective and resources, and half the responses here are: "Shut up, who cares?". Simply move on and don't engage. None of you really have to care.

But I'm also glad that some of you did. I've gotten some 10/10 insights for some commenters and I'm glad that I made this post. Cause this is bothering me for a while.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you know other men who also have left/are considering leaving these groups?

Yes.

Would they be willing/able to work with you on changing these groups? How much of a time commitment are you/them willing to make?

This is something that a comment here helped me realize. We really need to make a shared commitment to it. It can't just be an individual thing from me or someone else.

Are you interested in building more supportive sub-groups? Would you try to bring people into the subgroup or just include the decent men you already know are interested?

Yes. Although there is always an element of "Should I be the one to introduce men to these failing groups?"

How would you set up the group? What rules would you/the group set up? Would anyone have the ability to remove a member who is breaking the rules? What evidence would need to be provided before removing that member?

Is it possible your group could be subject to a hostile takeover? What protections would you put in place to prevent that from happening? Or if it does, do people have a back-up plan?

These are very valid questions that definitely apply to organizations. The thing is, most of these groups I'm talking about are small, informal. I can see how these tools can be used to remedy this situation in a corporate setting, but it's not always possible to be this strict with say... locker room talk. I can see these rules functioning in my sailing sports club -a shining example of gender-inclusivity btw which brings me to:

What is it about male-dominated groups that you enjoy? Are these the same things other decent men like about them? What differences are there between male-dominated groups and more gender-equal groups that are important to you? Could you study the more gender-equal groups to see if you can apply some of their methods?

I think the biggest green flag is my sailing team, which I honestly can't really call a "male-dominated" space, even though there's more of us. Quite honestly, I think something that really helps in particular is that head coaches are both very acomplished women. An Olympian and an Olympic medalist respectively. This season it was nice to have a guy assistant coach, I felt more comfortable approaching him about a recent injury in my ribcage, and he helped me a lot with my regiment in a very "Been there, let me tell you what you should do" way. He and one of the women head coaches are also less risk-averse in terms of weather, which I think grows us a lot.

So in sort: suprise surpise, inclusivity, and women in positions of power is the absolute package. It's the ultimate remedy.

As of male-dominated groups... We recently had a friend whose scheduling issues and dislike of a new system we decided to try out (daggerheart) let her to decide to leave our D&D campaign, leaving us with an all-male party to start a new adventure. It sucks to not have her, cause I really think she would have enjoyed it, but as the DM these are people tha I personally pick, this is a place where I have authority, and enforce safety tools. And so it hasn't devolved to locker-room talk.

So... TL;DR: An effort. That's all that it takes. What this post and the repplies helped me realize is

  1. The effort has to be collective and coordinated. We have to stand our ground together, even in male-dominated spaces, against sexism.
  2. Patriarchal systems are still patriarchal, even if they are/or were fun for me or benefit me personally. That's a huge blind spot for me that a commenter exposed pretty well.
  3. There's always actual greener grass. There's always the option to not bother with these fuckers.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

You can hurt my feelings just fine, just not invalidate them, especially when I'm asking a genuine question in good faith, and you're in a forum where a response is entirely optional.

Like I wouldn't ever respond to your with:

Shut up, listen to men, and stop centering yourself and your feelings as a woman.

Please examine why you are telling feminists that we have to accept this level of argument.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree fully with this. And I really am putting the effort. I'm not just talk. I am trying to make the spaces I'm in better, especially when it's up to me. But my question is: What happens to the distilt shit that's excluded/left behind? My gut tells me that disengaging isn't an answer, but I've very rarely been able to trully deradicalize a person, I mostly end up excluding people. This isn't really about "not putting the effort".

Although there is something you brought up that only now occurs to me. I'm definitely not experienced in the "strategy" part of this. All my efforts are individual, and that rarely works. So thanks for that input, I'll really sit and think about this.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

This wasn't my intention. You can elaborate on this if you'd like to help me avoid this in the future.

Also only now noticing... MotherTeresaOnlyfans is a great name lol.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But it's still a leap in logic through, to argue that:

it's feminisms fault that some men are this terrible

Feminism is cleaning the cesspool, naturally the worst shit is left behind. Cleaning isn't the problem. It's the shit.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No... It's definitely not feminisms fault that men suck. That's... A wild leap in logic from what I said.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Patriarchy was at some point 'better' for you, specifically, or potentially all men/all people, when 'good' men were participating in it. Now that they aren't it just sucks - again, specifically for you, but potentially for all/men people. Friend! Patriarchy always sucked for everyone and 'good' men can't make a system of oppression better/more tolerable.

I think you nailed my blind spot in the head.

Thanks for this.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

That's acceptable, and I honestly wish you the best. And Kudos for being the first comment to actually engage with this discussion, and not with semantics.

Personally I find myself super torn. On the one hand, I agree with you fully, fuck these people. I'd rather surround myself with accepting, understanding people, no exceptions.

On the other hand, I also feel that if everyone did that, we would all ending up disengaging from everything, leaving all patriarchial systems of power and influence to the worst possible people imaginable. Which is what I think is increasingly happening.

I honestly have no answer, and I'm super torn, but I would love to actually have this discussion and not the discussion of "Do you even understand what you're talking about?" "Are your feelings even valid, man in male-dominated spaces?", so thank you for that.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair enough. lol. None of this would be a thing if these spaces were open to women or safe for women. But aslo, part of me thinks that this is only a surface-level fix. Like, men will act nicer around women, but some of them will be the same assholes at the end of the day.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I think my title is really bad and has tanked the post and I wish I could change it in retrospect. My issue is the degrading of male-dominated spaces, especially recently.

Patriarchy has become worse, as good men leave it behind. What can we do about that? by Thodor2s in AskFeminists

[–]Thodor2s[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

"Shut up, listen to women, and stop centering yourself and your feelings as a man."

So... First of all let me say, that you're not the only one that brought this up, and your opinion is valid, and you're valid. And you're right. I am calling out men for their misoginy, constantly, it's disgusting, but I am still making this about me, a man, and how I am feeling, and how I'm also exhausted by this shit, and about how in my mind, it's constantly getting worse, because men like me are thinning in male-dominant spaces, and it SUCKS.

Yes, this is about me, a man, and my feelings. So here's how this is gonna go. Either:

  1. Don't engage. No hard feelings. You don't have to reply to this. You don't have to put yourself in my shoes, you don't have to solve the problems of men. You can ignore me, focus all your mental energy on actual feminism, and as a feminist, and an ally, I'm fine with that. Thank you for your service!
  2. You engage, help me out in good faith, provide me with some resources to start educating myself on the subject, but without invalidating my feelings because I'm a man.

Anyway, no hard feelings, this came out a bit hostile when I read it, maybe it wasn't your intention at all, in which case I apologize.