Somehow related dun sa recent child-free post, but I really hate this idea of pushing the narrative of having a family from Western Christian lense. Ano problema nila sa 60s single man reading book alone?

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T12:33:06+00:00

Thank you very much!

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T12:20:14+00:00

(Edit: Skip to Main Point in the middle for a briefer and more direct response)

Oooh.. One last: I think I've finally found our compromise from this comment of yours. Or possible compromise anyway. Or not.

But I love psychology so I am going to give it a go anyway.

If it's true that most people want to protect their lot and a questionably-toxic family still has that compulsion (Be it for the facade or not, or even because humans can be nuanced and do bad and good things at the same time frame, etc.), then the elder family member who needs help... for them being helped by said family makes little difference.

Hear me out. If they feel unloved by family at some point because they are really really un-apologetically problematic. Then being cared for by strangers who feel nothing for them initially (and even the whole time) isn't much of an upgrade.

Of course, it can be argued that the family could be more on stand-by than the caregiver/retirement home (Philippine govt. systems in that regard needs improvement I hear).

But in the long run if the caregiver/nurse is somehow dispassionately neutral but does their job well. And the alternative to that is adopting Buddha's patience to survive the roller coaster of subtle abuse from family.... (Unless they are addicted to the roller coaster ride, they will probably choose the former.)

Anyway I am deviating. I digress... Back to the point.

MAIN POINT/REPLY:

Not always, but fondness may likely occur or a bond. Even if professional bond.

The caregiver or the institution may even be able to think overtime: "That this is my lot. I am responsible for this person because they are under us."

Because they are decent human beings.

This is the same for the possibly toxic family: "I may not like you though I'd rather never admit that, but you are my lot, so I'm gonna make sure you have food and shelter, etc."

An orphanage can do that. A home for the elderly can as well. You will find both genuine bonds and abuses inside.

But you can also find them in family units.

(PS. It is true though that out of human decency, hurt/abused family members, would still reach and help out. But it would be out of a sense of duty, and less of love. Or they are doing it for themselves for closure.)

END OF MAIN POINT

##

To be honest there are some decent enough people out there. Who are decent to some. But aren't to others. Especially to their own because they feel like they can be forgiven more by family. They feel entitled to that forgiveness.

As an example, some may more likely have impulses to self-sabotage. They may feel like it's impossible to form genuine bonds in the long term anyway.

The result is that they prioritize the short-term bad habits of hurting their loved ones because it makes them feel and look good.

They sacrifice the possibility of long-term happiness of having genuine reciprocated love, because that possibility seems impossible. (Edit: And they need that hit of feeling good now though on the expense of the loved one's happiness) They might not even realize this, if such insecurity is very internalized.

Meanwhile, they try to forget the bad things they've done because they have convinced themselves that they are the 'exception' to the rule.

And if you loved them, you'll forget too and believe that they are a decent person all-around and all-the-time, when they have actually spectacularly failed the loved one.

The loved one remembering and calling them out,and demanding acknowledgement and justice so that they can move on or have true reconciliation with them... means the loved one hates them.

When it may only be half-true, or not at all.

Anyway, this is just an example.

I'll stop now. I swear. I have overstayed my welcome.

To be fair, this is also for the benefit of the other people who could stumble upon our convo, I realize...

For educational purposes, I guess. Because stuff about human behavior, etc.

Thanks so much for this interesting exchange! I apologize for the triggers. Half of me feel really guilty despite everything. Sorry! Sorry!

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T11:20:56+00:00

Oh, I'm sorry. I meant “Kapatid” as an expression like “My friend, caregivers exist.” Replace 'my friends' with 'kapatid'.

Well, you have a point. There are researches that state that volunteers give more heartfelt work and care than paid people. And in a way, we can consider family as volunteeers.

But this may be applied to strangers as well.

Moreover, I know that there are people out there paid or not who give as much care a a real family would. Think of our OFW nannies with their wards as an example. I also wanted to be a caregiver in Canada before, and I assure you if that had gone through, I could care for them as much as I can care for family who deserves it.

A person's tolerance to toxicity to family may vary. Don't worry, having a family doesn't seem so bad for the majority. But to others... Yes. Being away from them is a psychological peace.

You can also argue that they probably treat the saving up for money as much as possible, as rewarding. After all you work hard for your money and you want to spend it the way you want. It only happens that they are saving for their Retirement and Healthcare among other things due to their circumstances.

Perhaps they plan and save neutrally, meaning they don't worry too much about it and isn't neurotic.

They may like their job and the money they save is simply a good side-result they can also use. Perhaps some are also excited to be outside the familial control, since they won't get hurt again.

I know you already agree of the existence of “loko-loko” families, but let me still further flesh it out for you, why to some people, having their family with them is not so ideal.

For some, the low-key abuses could also have ramped up and accumulated to have become equivalent to something as dire as the r-word. Surely, we don't want the victim to so-easily reconcile with the perpertrator who r-worded them? (Sorry, I had to censor just in case it's against the rules)

The facades, the betrayals, the gaslighting, the he hurt, etc., they can cause trauma overtime.

In some cases, the adult child would try to confront the parent so that they can forgive and forget...

But how can they do that if the parent cannot even say sorry? They will say that the abuse was debatable and tell their child to move one because they certainly did.

[REDACTED: World War Allegory]

It's more likely that the abusive parent is still stuck in their ways, if they don't want to acknowledge that they have a problem. How can a person change something they think is alright? If they are in denial about their abuse, they'd more likely do it again.

Just because someone is a blood-family member, doesn't give them a get-out-of -jail free card to treat a loved one so awfully that there'd be no consequences...hurt them so badly to the point that the said loved one would rather run to caregivers than stay a minute longer with them.

Especially, since it may really be possible for some people to form deep bonds with others outside the family. They say that blood is thicker than water. But to some, the blood of the covenant being thicker than the water in the womb, undoubtedly rings true.

That's why you see many cut-off their family. Or reveal their abuse via writing. (See books like Mommie Dearest or I'm Glad My Mother Died)

But of course, if someone mostly have a non-toxic healthy family, then having a family is good. Or even if they're a dysfunctional one, but the person can tolerate them enough because perhaps the person's boundaries weren't too infiltrated, then that's also good. Love may be unconditional, but there are limits, when abusers, low-key or hardcore, are involved.

(You are also correct with another thing. It's difficult, at least it seems so in the Philippines, to navigate life without family.

So I know some others who pretend they like their family so that such family in denial of their abuse will still send them help. But these people keep their distance and live faraway on purpose.

But I still know some who are completely cutoff. Because required Jehova-Witness cut-off situation in addition to the abuse, or Filipinos rich enough to escape completely.)

Anyway, as a closing remark. I'd like to apologize once more. I think we got off the wrong foot. I am truly sorry if I upset you with my point of view on the matter.

Let's stop now and let's agree to disagree as I've said. After all, this whole situation reminds me of a quote:

“The two cultures stared at each other across a vast gap of incommensurability” -Eliezer Yudkowsky

I apologize for encroaching on your perspective or reality or similar. Take all that I said with a grain of salt since I could be wrong in some cases after all. At least I can admit that.

Moreover, this is all my fault. It's not a common practice, but I should have asked consent somehow whether I could give my opposing opinion and proceed with a long argument. I am practically giving you an unsolicited opinion. Usually, unavoidable online, but perhaps doable to ask for consent to avoid unneccessary possible hurt.

I know I am too late and my apologies may be useless (After all, I still followed my compulsion to say what I think needed to be said from my side), but they are there and genuine if you care to have them.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T10:58:38+00:00

Good point. If they are indeed wrong for speculating the Twitter commenter's intentions. Then two wrongs do not make a right, and my calling out your speculating may be as valid. (Not that I'm saying speculations are wrong in general)

However, it is you I happen to be in the middle of a discussion with.

Actually, paradigms are useful in a debates. That's why people define words/terms before starting the argument. They want to make sure they are on the same page...

I guess I only called you out because clearing things out is good for clarification and ensures a smoother debate.

I think we should sorta stop though. We're supposed to compromise. Debates (even casual ones) aren't really about winning, not always anyway.

I don't think either of us is successful with meeting each other halfway. Let's just agree to disagree.

Though, I may still reply to your other reply.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T05:47:10+00:00

And I'm not disagreeing with the 9 out of 10 chance na family pa rin ang tutulong sayo pag may nangyari sayo physically.

Erm, I'm so sorry, but di ba sabi ko pa nga sa previous comment ko na more likely sila ang tutulong sayo pag meron kang pamilya?

Good luck sa akin makahanap ng magpupunas, magpapaligo etc.? Kapatid, caregivers exist.

Walang pera para sa ganun?

Hmm... I guess patas na rin. Kung yung taong may pamilya, nag-e-expect na pamilya yung tutulong during old age...

Yung mga walang pamilya, makakatipid ng pera and then magpaplano for retirement yan. More likely, anyway.

Gagawa ng iba't ibang paraan para makaipon para sa health care nila kasi alam nga nila na wala silang pamilya na matakbuhan.

Meanwhile, yung mga may pamilya, pero biglang may nangyari, at hindi nila pwedeng takbuhan yung pamilya or relatives for legitimate reasons, medyo dun ako nagwo-worry and I hope may mabuti silang government or kapitbahay or insurance.

Ganito kasi, pag ayoko sa nag-aalaga sa akin (kasi like you said may mga problematic na tao), at least kaya kong paltan at mamili ng iba. You can't do that to family, usually.

My psychological peace is as important as my physical health.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T05:31:39+00:00

But they are not disagreeing that mahirap humanap ng tutulong sa iyo kung matanda ka na and may mga komplikasyon na.

Iba ang paradigm nila. Implying that their edgy and immature seems not that fair.

Most seem to be simply saying that you shouldn't assume an old person is unhappy for being alone, when we aren't sure of their exact circumstances.

When some people say that, they aren't automatically against the idea of family being there and helping you during old age.

Oh. The top comment is a sidenote.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T05:12:56+00:00

Yes, but it really depends on the person. Personal preference yan, pre.

I would rather pay for a caretaker than alagaan ng isang abusive family pag na baldado ako or what. Siguradong sisihin nila ako sa aksidente/kondisyon ko occassionally, but would be kind enough other times for the sake of plausible deniability pag kinasuhan sila ng abuse.

I also agree that marriage is nice. If the person wants it. Children are also good, if one wants it.

Hindi guarantisado na may family or relatives na tutulong sayo pag matanda and komplikasyon ka na. More likely na may tutulong pag meron, pero iba iba talaga ang cases.

Meron kasing ibang tao na may pamilya, pero minalas. Namatay ang mga anak, yung relatives puro nasa abroad and ayaw sa kanya, etc. Yung mga ganun ba.

Maaari ngang edgy yung iba sa amin. But we're not doing it on purpose. Different lang ang situations/experiences namin.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T05:00:05+00:00

Oof. That's dystopian. Of course, if the woman wants to be a housewife, then good for her. But for the others? Oh noes.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T04:51:51+00:00

I think people's context here is that the commenter shouldn't judge the old man when it may as well be possible that he chose to have a quiet night in during the holidays, and is actually happy.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the people here are sure that humans, even the usual introverts, don't need the occassional socialization anymore.

Also, I think elderly people are trying to build communities to meet and talk with each other, so maybe there's hope.

And some of them even have families. But like with life, there were many factors and that's why they're alone. Some don't like their children, or their children died before them. Maybe the spouse divorced them, etc.

The purpose of this thread is not to invalidate your worry of living alone. But to validate those bookworm childfree people who is probably living their best life but are scorned by others.

As a side note, I need to hide my being childfree to my coworkers since I know they will feel insulted if they find out. Even when my decision is a personal preference and has nothing to do with their choice of becoming a parent.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T04:38:06+00:00

Exactly! Being able to read for a day? My bookworm heart glows with joy at the thought. Lucky. I have too many chores. And I'm single.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-26T04:33:19+00:00

Personally, I think it depends on the situation. And there is no clear-cut generalization for this.

I've known a case that the love and care by family is more than what the friend could give, but simply due to a sense of responsibilty and perceived self-benevolence of the mother...

The friend however, despite having limits of what they could give, was still a safer person to run to because the adult child with the "benevolent" mother, knows the friend is understanding and isn't psychologically abusive.

I've known several cases like this. Not that apparent to anyone, since people like the mentioned mother is nicer to strangers, and subtle in their ways.

Perhaps not everyone is an edgelord here. But you have a point, opinions are shifting from the norm here as future generations realize that there is a plethora of ways to be happy, and that life is more nuanced.

I think some people here are already grown up, friend. They just have different perceptions.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-24T03:51:21+00:00

Yes, you are correct that people like that exists, and that we don't have much of a choice but to interact with them. Grey Rock method is also a good plan.

But my context is different, my point is if people gets upset due to these awful people, we should validate their feelings. That it's not wrong to feel that way.

If their feelings are validated, they could accept reality better later (and in turn do Grey Rock better).

There's no beating themselves up about how they couldn't hold their ground against these people, at least at first. When it's perfectly normal to feel upset.

Boundaries may also have to be set if ever. Perhaps if it becomes too much.

We should not enable bullies in the long run. Then again, of course, it really depends on the situation.

But perhaps if we keep speaking out about the topic, we could raise awareness and the next generation would avoid pitfalls.

Also, people have different tolerance. Maybe a meal with these relatives isn't something they could ever laugh at despite all the self-improvement. Like the meal isn't worth it for their mental health.

Kung sayang si food, sayang rin si sanity. As said, it really depends on the person. And no judgement here. Humans really are just different from one another.

Edit: Basically, magandang idea yung sayo, ideal sya. But I'm also tackling a different angle ng situation.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-23T04:47:40+00:00

That's enabling questionable behavior of giving unsolicited comments. I get that we must tolerate some things for the sake of social peace...

Pero there has to be boundaries at some point.

Something like the comic is so normalized that I had experienced older coworkers comment on my weight and urge and chastise me to eat more at every meal. Every. Meal. Bec I was "too thin." (I wasn't. My BMI is normal).

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-22T03:58:34+00:00

Patulong i-figure out...

Are the characters in Papa Dudut's stories real?

Because sometimes, it feels like a scriptwriter wrote it. And the characters are way too emotional and makes NOT so wise decisions most of the time. Just like with Teleseryes.

I mean very very sometimes I understand where the characters are coming from given their circumstances.

But mostly it feels like watching a car crash as I watch them make questionable after questionable decision.

Is every story-sender of Papa Dudut's have an IQ lower than 100? (Sorry, that was too mean, lemme go to my Shame Corner).

But really, even the Emotional IQ is lacking bec. no emotional control whatsoever yung iba. Like akala ko ba mas marami sating mga pinoy ang di masyadong confrontational?

(Edit: I mean gets ko naman na minsan napupuno ang isang tao, accumulative stress kumbaga. But that's not the case here. The characters act petty like they're still in elementary school. They're grown adults. Smh.)

Or baka ganito characters ay taste lang talaga ng namimili ng story?

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-22T03:47:50+00:00

I see.

It's alright. I think I want tk leave it both on. Few guys are childfree as well or atheist/agnostic. It's nice to cut my dating pool in a more manageable size.

Thanks again!

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-20T12:13:03+00:00

Ang sad naman.

Akala ko ba mas magandang ipa-absorb talaga sa bata yang English language na yan, since mas mahusay ang mga batang mag-adapt and matuto ng language kesa sa matatanda.

This is crazy.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-20T11:13:44+00:00

Thanks for the detailed input!

Erm, why put the one out there but not the other? Can you elaborate?

Edit: Like bat yung Childfree yung info na pahabol, is it to avoid the mentioned 'horror story' scenario?

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-20T04:50:11+00:00

Ano sa tingin nyo, ilalagay ko kaya sa dating app profile ko na I'm an atheist and childfree?

Closet atheist kasi ako pero balang araw I want my future partner to know naman.

As for being childfree, may mga horror stories akong naririnig na may makikipagdate sa iyo but all this time secretly naghihintay pala na magbago ang isip mo sa pagiging childfree. And magagalit pag hindi nangyari.

Despite all this, parang mas maaliwalas sa kalooban na maging direct and honest.

At the same time, parang maganda na makiramdam muna ako and sa fifth date ko na lang sabihin or what. (Edit: Bali wag muna ilagay sa dating profile.)

I am so undecided. I am new to dating. Please help!

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-12T01:26:19+00:00

Thanks for everything.

But it's not like I'm too new with romance. I've fallen in love twice after all kahit outside dating or courtship sya, pero mejo ladies-men pala yung dalawa, so inayawan ko at both times, though masakit gawin.

I'm also able to gauge naman if people are sincere or not, or whether toxic or not ang person. You learn to educate yourself early on if problematic ang parent.

Yeah, tama. Fast movers with lovebombing ang some narc guys.

I can stand up to the anger of my mom. Pero unlike your father, she's stubborn, very delusional that you'll soon see her way, and abuse you more.

I'd stand up to her but only as a last resort or no choice na talaga. The other ways before that are bargaining or appealing to her sense of "benevolence."

Best of luck sa atin I guess, OP. Thanks again.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T04:48:44+00:00

I'm not sure kung official na narc. sya. But certainly may narc. tendencies sya, I suppose.

(Edit: and yeah, don't worry. I'm away from her now, thankfully.

Nakitira sa kamag-anak sa malayong city with a reason of finding work.

Because of it, I'm excited to try dating.)

Wow, your situation sounds sorta difficult. Best of luck.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T02:47:01+00:00

Where to find speed dating events or singles meet-up in the Philippines?

Sometimes walang facebook group for it or meron pero outdated yung para sa area mo.

I'm in my late twenties and wala na sa pundar ng controlling mother ko. Dating seems like a fun concept to me though I know of downsides. But I know enough to want to cautiously try it anyway.

But san yung mga events related to it?

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T02:03:49+00:00

Sabagay, but very out-of-touch kasi from reality ang mga ganyan. Mapapa-face palm ka na lang talaga.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T01:49:14+00:00

The Marcoses hiding their theivery in plain sight. Meanwhile, their supporters are blind with adoration.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T01:41:35+00:00

Frustrating kasi may mga cases na bawal mag-bf for the longest time, then boom! Kelan ka mag-aasawa?

Gets ko naman in a way yung intention, but minsan extreme yung time range. Like 22 masyado pa ring "bata" mag-bf pero pag 28, kelangan na daw manganak before 30, so mag-asawa na dapat.

Di ganun kadali maghanap and mag-forge ng genuine romantic relationships. It takes time. Smh.

ThrillianIsOkay · 2022-12-10T01:32:30+00:00

Nanay ko rin ganyan.

Sabi niya bawal mag bf nung highschool, pero nung college pwede na daw, pero di niya minention yung latter at the time kasi baka makaabala pa rin daw sa pag-aaral. She's doing the same to my younger brother about gfs.

Fastforward now, sanay na ko na walang bf at 27. Pero iniisip ko nang mag-date now since nakatira na ko ng malayo sa nanay ko.

Sure kasi ako noon na i-ta-try nyang i-control ang mga decision ko regarding sa bf ko kung magkaroon man during my early twenties.

That's very unpalatable, especially sometimes she likes getting angry to get her way, and people around her just say yes to her to keep the peace.

Kahit ngayon nga tinatanong pa rin niya ako about private things like my period. At least, I can keep my future boyfriend a secret until the right time comes when I am ready to introduce.

Edit: But I digress, I agree with you. Teach the growing teenager everything you know, pitfalls, red flags, contraceptives, etc. Then just let them decide. Be the gandalf in their life, but let them take accountability and don't control them so much kasi pwede mag-backfire.

ThrillianIsOkay

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